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Is the past month what the end of Atlas Shrugged looks like?

Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 9 months ago to Culture
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With all of the Black Lives Matter protests, the shooting of both citizens and police, the negative reaction of the stock market to the British taking back their own sovereignty, the unwillingness of the FBI to prosecute an obvious case of national security protocol violations, and the worldwide terrorism spree, I am asking you to find parallels in Atlas Shrugged or in other Rand novels as to where we are at? Are we still near the beginning? Or is it getting close to the end?

Being a member of this forum means that I must not be in denial of reality. However, reality lately is getting a little hard to swallow. My 18-year-old younger daughter shares my worldview. She said that the news is getting a little too depressing, so we are watching Shrek 2 for a little bit of comedic escapism. As I recall from AS, didn't theatregoing become popular as an escape from reality?


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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 9 months ago
    As A.R. put it in the past, we are "Cashing In."
    In this case, we are cashing in on almost 8 years of the most divisive president since Lincoln.
    We are cashing in on the influx of anti-American refugees.
    We are cashing in on the conversion of fatherless black men and boys being converted to Islam. who were looking for a purpose in life and someone to blame.
    We are cashing in for people who should know better hiding their heads in the sand.
    We are cashing in for 100 years of liberal education.
    The wonder would be if nothing happened.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 9 months ago
    Jim, most people are still clueless about their environment and wholly unprepared for change. The economy still provides ample supplies of everything, especially distractions from reality.
    It's pretty early in the timeline of AS.
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    • Posted by MinorLiberator 7 years, 9 months ago
      I agree. I re-read it every few years or so, and currently just starting Part III this time around.

      I don't think we've approached the point of mass shortages, "frozen" transportation, people walking off jobs and into the night for who knows where, and a complete collapse of the infrastructure, e.g., as at the very end where New York City goes dark, and the implied beginning of the total breakdown of civil society is beginning. As Rand said, the novel is not prophetic, and actually meant to keep itself from being prophetic. Whether we get to an actual Atlas-like ending or just a massive worldwide depression that we somehow recover from, and with better principles...I don't think anyone knows right now.

      And if you add in the wild card of mystic, terrorist extremists who care nothing of this Earth, and have nukes, to whom "mutually assured destruction" may mean nothing or actually be a good thing, it may be a quick, unAtlas-like ending...
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      • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
        We live in interesting times.
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        • Posted by MinorLiberator 7 years, 9 months ago
          Very. And I believe Confucius called that a curse...but I thank the God (I no longer believe in) that I lived to see an immigrant woman from Soviet Russia provide both stellar fiction alongside and integrated with a truly groundbreaking new Philosophy. One that challenges and corrects primarily the moral errors, in addition to many logical ones, of several thousand years of rationalist, Western, Philosophy.

          And if the world avoids total destruction, but degrades into an Anthem-like society of a new Dark Ages, we can rest assured that millions of both printed and digital versions of Atlas and her other works will survive, somewhere, waiting to be discovered by some future John Galt. And to bring our progeny a new Renaissance.

          I still hope the new Renaissance occurs and prevents the new Dark Ages. I don't I'll live to see which way it goes, but at least I'll die knowing which way it can, and should.
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      • Posted by blackswan 7 years, 9 months ago
        You say that the Muslims don't care if they die. My reading of history suggests otherwise. When Genghis Khan and his Mongols conquered that part of the world, they didn't have any problem with fanatics. Vlad Dracul also taught the Turks some manners. The lesson to be gleaned from these examples is that you shouldn't be interested in proving how "civilized" you are when dealing with outfits like ISIS. You need to show them how UNcivilized you can be when provoked. Let them know that "civilization" is a thin veneer when dealing with assholes.
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        • Posted by MinorLiberator 7 years, 9 months ago
          Actually, I never mentioned the word "Muslim". The inference is owned by you, but of course that is whom I clearly meant. Muslims. But Muslim extremists only. And what drove you to that inference that I meant Muslims?

          And regardless of your reading of history, and your implied solution of "turning the desert into glass", it just doesn't work. And wouldn't even be needed if Western leaders had even the faintest reflection of principle that those who opposed The Axis in WWII had. And still the only Constitutionalist among those was Churchill. But he was enough.

          It would never have gotten to the point where those in the extreme Muslim minority are so close to weapons of mass destruction. And willing to turn the whole world into glass.

          Anyone who does not realize that nukes are a complete game-changer in ALL of history, and make all the old adages of history irrelevant, is not looking at reality. Within the lifetime of my grandfathers, the machine gun and tank would lead to "the War to End All Wars". And how did that hypothesis work out? It didn't, and led to another World War that only ended when the US, properly, used two nukes on Japan.

          Everything since then has been either proxy cold war (Vietnam) "wars" or repeated, brutal mini-wars which are only contained because neither side has nukes, or the rational side does and won't use them.

          But thanks to the cowardice of the Western powers, having abandoned all semblance of "Western" principles, my "nightmare scenario" is based on not just ISIS, but Europe continuing to altruistically collapse to Eastern mystics based on the sickeningly puny of excuses: "Political Correctness". If and when, they get the democratic majority, as they have in London, they'll be handed control of nukes in countries like France.

          I really have no idea if it will actually reach the point where fanatics can end the world, nobody does, but my reading of reality and history as of today is that The West is practically handing them the power to do it...
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        • Posted by ewv 7 years, 9 months ago
          Genghis Kahn was not a Muslim theocrat. Most ignorant Muslim's around the world probably do care about living in a crude sense, despite their other-worldly religious teachings, but not enough to want to learn what it takes.

          War is a breakdown in civilization, but crushing a dangerous aggressor is not uncivilized or a "thin veneer" of civilization. It is deliberate action on behalf of civilization.
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          • Posted by iroseland 7 years, 9 months ago
            He was, a Mongol.. They were actually pretty tolerant of the religious views of the conquered people. So, the Mongol Empire contained, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Daoist, whoa the list goes on as there were still plenty of tribes essentially worshiping nature in Central Asia. The Mongol approach to this was pretty much, hey the religion thing is all yours. That kind of worked at the time, as the various religions could not so much fight amongst themselves as that would have brought the mongols down on their heads. But, when the Mongols got to Baghdad the folks there made some bad choices, and decided to try to wait out a siege. When it was over the mongols killed everyone, everyone there. The rest of the caliphates fell pretty easily after that. Around that same time, the Mongols had spies operating in both London and Japan. They also managed to reopen the silk road and get east west trade running again. This was probably the most important thing the empire managed to accomplish, as it caused a full reboot of the wests economy bringing us the renaissance and all of the good things that followed. As for ISIS, they really do not want to see just how pissed of Europe can be when it finally has reached a last straw moment.
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            • Posted by Wanderer 7 years, 9 months ago
              Though they were great warriors, they were willing to learn from those whom they conquered and accept the best into their ranks.

              In 1201, during the Battle of the 13 Sides one of the opposing archers shot an arrow through Genghis Khan's neck. After the battle Khan asked the defeated army who'd shot his horse through the neck. The archer came forward and said "I didn't shoot your horse. I shot you." Khan not only let him live, he made him one of his generals. Jebe went on to win major victories at the Battle of the Kalka River and, at Kiev and Rus.

              I'd say this is one thing that separates Muslims from everyone else - the unwillingness to learn from and adapt to the outside world.
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    • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
      I think you are right, and I would estimate the timeline to be in the neighborhood of 40 years before it would be like Venezuela.

      That said, a real currency collapse, or laws line 10-289 could speed that up quite a bit. We are living in a country with a lot of savings held in the financial system that could disappear overnight. That could mean that older and retired people would be instantly impoverished and really affect the economy.

      I think with the deficits, entitlement programs, and entitled citizens, a currency collapse is our #1 danger. This could occur very quickly because of unforeseen things happening here or in foreign countries.
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  • Posted by RonC 7 years, 9 months ago
    In a novel, the last page will generally say, "The End". In real life there is always tomorrow. If the currencies all collapse, we will still need a place to sleep and food to eat. If there is anarchy in the street of USA's largest 200 cities, some will flee, some will fight, and someday it will have to be cleaned up.
    If nothing gets worse until election, if we elect more of the same, it will surely get worse after election. More division between income, sex, religion, and race. ( I list race last because poor white people have had it too. Race is just a special card the progressives play. If we don't like a policy, we must be racist.)

    On the other hand, if we elect a law and order administration; say Gulliani for AG, Sheriff Clark for HSA Chief, Bolton as Sec of State, etc. it will get worse as well. Because of the current lawlessness there would be a time of major street sweeping, head banging (not music) and prison building to clean this up. For example; marijuana is still illegal under federal law. How many states are breaking federal law? Another? Sanctuary cities. How many cities are in violation of federal law protecting illegals? I could name several issue of this type.

    It seems to me what our government has created is two Americas. One that is law abiding and plays by the rules and another that does what they wish and avoid the penalties by living under the radar. 2-3 false identities, all cash living, pay rent with money orders, no banking affiliations. Live in cities where prosecution is unlikely. As Dick Cheney once said talking about foreign affairs, "We are going to have a hell of mess to clean up after this administration leaves." The same is true for domestic affairs.

    The day after analysis isn't included in the novel. In the process of the turmoil one would hope a few producers would see opportunities and fill the gap between anarchy and government.
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    • Posted by Chappy193 7 years, 9 months ago
      "It seems to me what our government has created is two Americas. One that is law abiding and plays by the rules and another that does what they wish and avoid the penalties by living under the radar."

      But that is the whole point: if you try to obey the rules than the rules will be changed mid-stream without warning.

      The rules will continue to be changed until you must break them in order to survive. Then you will be told that you have "broken the rules" and must help gather up others or pay the consequences of "breaking the rules".

      Hitler and Stalin used this to great effect.

      Anytime someone tells me "...for the greater good..." I check my wallet and walk away.

      Just my .02 cents.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      If Trump wins, expect a "law and order administration" with the players that you mentioned as AG, HSA Chief, Sec of State.
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      • Posted by RevJay4 7 years, 9 months ago
        That is not a bad thing, in my humble estimation. This country needs a lot of "law and order" to put a stop to all the leftists BS protesting, etc.
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        • Posted by ewv 7 years, 9 months ago
          A statist crackdown in the name of "order" imposed by "law" with no understanding of the cultural causes of the problem or concern for objective law and the rights of the individual would attack all of us either directly or through the general decline in freedom. It would be another ratcheting up of statism that would never be relinquished.
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  • Posted by Joseph23006 7 years, 9 months ago
    No, we will walk Eddie Willers looking for the future and stumbing, drink the sublimity of Halley's Fifth Concerto, or become Ellsworth Tooey's easily led sheep from "The Fountainhead"!
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 7 years, 9 months ago
    j; I don't find anything in your and your daughter's thoughts to fault. All I might add is that I often think that Ayn may not have foreseen just how bad it could get, or how very evil those against individual rights and liberty can be.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      You are correct. There is nothing to fault, but it is an admission that the pursuit of a happy reality is getting more challenging. My other daughter and several other of my research students had a good week in the lab, so a happy reality is still quite possible. Thanks, Zen.

      As for Ayn's foresight, the fact that AS was so lengthy is a testament to her ability to see "how bad it could get, or how very evil those against individual rights and liberty can be." Things were definitely worse in the Soviet Union then they are here now.

      I have always tried to control my own reality, and have done a good job of it. There are, and have always been, some things beyond my control. However, now, there are more things beyond my control that are starting to become menacing and closer than I am comfortable with.
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  • Posted by chad 7 years, 9 months ago
    Theatre going did become an escape in AS and the Great Depressions we have experienced (we are in one now if you calculate it with the same method used for the 1930's). Sometimes as a relief the mind needs to think of other things. Although many believe that voting in the correct candidates will cure the problem I think we are too far gone. We are currently supervised by a communist democracy. Even if you voted in someone who understands liberty the way Ayn Rand did as a president (or senator or other) they would have no effect. There are people who are willing to kill you to maintain their job (BLM, Homeland Security, IRS, etc.) if you refuse to abide by the rules they are enforcing. If a president told a bureaucracy to disband they would simply ignore him and continue on (there are thousands of 'legal' ways to do it). The debt based fiat currency we are using is near collapse and yet most people and almost all economists will defend it even though it preys on the poor, the elderly and the weak. Even if you have a place that you think is yours you will find out you are mistaken. All property is indebted by local and state governments through bonding, someone still holds the title to your land (not you) even if you don't owe a bank. The state can demand immediate payment or force you to vacate the property. If you want to test this quit paying your property taxes. Your neighbors can vote to indebt you and you can't do anything to stop them. If you do have stores of food and gold roving bands of lawless hungry people are not your only problem. During the depression the government took gold from people and their food. I knew an old man that lived in that time period, he said the feds came and buried his livestock to 'help drive the prices up for the good of the country and to help get out of the depression' and his family went hungry and had to beg the feds for food. There is no one running for the job of president that doesn't want it for all the wrong reasons. The same is true for all political positions with very few exceptions. When you have a government structure that is deviant from a constitutional republic you are left with those who want power vying for office. Gandhi failed to realize this in India. He assumed that if the English were out of power and the Indians were running the government they would treat their own fairly. All that happened was that the power to use violence to enforce arbitrary rules was given to the Indian people who abused it as badly as the English had for the same self serving reasons. The only difference between the candidates is what lie they will tell the electorate to get elected. The presidency is now a launch pad for power and money. I think we are near the end, however every time I thought it might actually collapse into chaos they found a way to keep it going and continue to erode liberty and fiscal responsibilities in small steps. The 'big drop' may never come. America may continue into the morass step by step, because even sheep like a slow steady progress to the slaughter house, sudden movement can make them unpredictable.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 9 months ago
    Yes, theater going is an escape so long as there is good reality theater to go to.

    As too the question...I don't think we're at the end yet...parts of the end show up in one country or another but not the whole of it yet...I think it's sad to say...the worst is yet to come...but I do hope that our own awareness of it will shrug it off a bit till we figure out whom is our last hope OB1.
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  • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 9 months ago
    Watching movies etc. to escape from a bad situation even for only a little while goes back into the ancient time, especially the roman empire in decline. It was not movies it was the Games sponsored by the Senate or the Emperor.
    Fast forward to the Great Depression, it was the Movies, now it is the internet, TV and movies.Of course I'm generalizing and skipping an enormous blocks of time, the idea is there. Get your mind off of your problems. Whatever technology is available to do it, just do it.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      Or just come to the Gulch to find like-minded individuals to remind us that we are not out of our minds when the world tells us that we are out of our minds.
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      • Posted by Wanderer 7 years, 9 months ago
        I think the Gulch misleads. The world outside this URL is different. Here (for the most part) logic reigns. One may and can have rational discussions. Outside, we're post-rational. We're in a world of emotion and compulsion. Logic doesn't work. Polemics don't work.

        If one wishes to make an impact, to sway society, history, that's the most important thing one can understand about the outside world; polemics don't work, rational discussions don't work; emotions work, emoting works, drama works. The outside world wants drama, It responds to drama. If you wish to argue a point, you must do it dramatically.

        The Left has known and used this for a century, since mass media was invented. The Right came late and does it much less effectively. Ayn Rand did it well. Atlas Shrugged is dramatized philosophy although both dialogue and description are heavy with polemics, Hiram Hayden should have forced Rand to cut much of the polemics and dramatize them instead.

        Robert McKee travels the world, teaching writers and businessmen this principle; don't tell it, don't say it, make them feel it, dramatize your message and let their feelings sell them your story or product.

        This is what I want to do for Aglialoro, dramatize the message because, there's a big world outside this URL and, it's not very friendly.
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        • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
          Your logic makes sense. Maybe the overpowering attraction of socialism is emotional, and thats why it continues to advance even in spite of terrible failures of it everywhere. Its proponents simply chalk up failure to "it just wasnt done right"/
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          • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
            The overpowering attraction of socialism is indeed emotional. The core of that emotion is envy. Your comment regarding socialism's terrible failures everywhere presumes that improving the condition of citizens (excuse me, subjects) is a goal of socialism. I will argue that socialism worked perfectly well for those looters setting it up.
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            • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
              BUT, socialism ultimately destroys everything, including the system set up by the looters. I guess they dont expect it to last, but just to serve themselves for awhile. Then they go on to set it up somewhere else.
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              • Posted by Wanderer 7 years, 9 months ago
                Men's natural, selfish reactions to socialism destroy almost everything, indeed, everything for the masses of them but, not everything. What remains is plenty for the manipulators at the top.

                The people in the Politburo lived quite good lifestyles, while the population barely subsisted.

                The block captains in Havana lived in the largest, nicest homes on their blocks, while the Palestinos and others lived 3 to 12 per room in the lesser homes. Cuba's governing elite imported whatever they wanted, while their 10 million subjects weren't even allowed to own hard currency or enter the Dollar Stores. I used to have to buy soap, yes, soap, for my Cuban friends.

                Socialism demotivates the producers but, as the economy crumbles the difference in living standards simply motives their rulers even more.
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                • Posted by ewv 7 years, 9 months ago
                  Socialism is not selfish and is not based on emotionalism. The emotional attachments come from acceptance of false premises of self sacrifice and collectivism as ethical primaries.

                  Principles of self interest are not natural reactions, they must be learned.
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                  • Posted by Wanderer 7 years, 9 months ago
                    I believe you are wrong. Self interest is natural, innate. Cavemen were looking out after their own interests millennia ago.

                    Socialism is unnatural and, must be learned and - enforced. That's why it has always failed. It isn't the natural state of man and, if there is any alternative, man takes it.
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                  • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                    In order to discuss this, we must agree on definitions. Selfishness, as Rand defines it, embodies "the values required for human survival-—not the values produced by the desires, the emotions, the “aspirations,” the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial practice of human sacrifices, have never discovered an industrial society and can conceive of no self-interest but that of grabbing the loot of the moment." (http://aynrandlexicon.org, from The Virtue of Selfishness)

                    Selfishness, as the world defines it, is precisely the self-interest "of grabbing the loot of the moment."

                    Rand's definition of selfishness requires acceptance of the premise that "the rational interests of men do not clash—that there is no conflict of interests among men who do not desire the unearned". The problem here is that looters and moochers ... desire the unearned. Acting in their self-interests, but without the moral compass of the non-aggression principle, looters and moochers see no problem whatsoever in trampling others' rights in the pursuit of their own. This is precisely what the rest of the world (outside the Gulch) describes as selfishness. Rand was not wrong in what she said, but she would have been far more effective if she had defined a new term, rather than a new definition for selfishness.

                    What must be learned are not the principles of self-interest, but the morality behind the non-aggression principle. Two and three year olds do not understand the non-aggression principle (NAP). Most people do not understand that principle until receiving aggression in retaliation for their own violation of the NAP. For most young boys, that comes with a bloody lip or a black eye.
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                  • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
                    I disagree on this one. While socialism has a collectivist veneer, socialism is both selfish and emotional. For the looter and the moocher alike, socialism permits them justification to feed like parasites to either aggrandize power for themselves (looters) or maintain a minimal subsistence while not producing (moochers).
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                • Posted by term2 7 years, 9 months ago
                  Eventually there is revolution, as in the french revolution. It was even predicted in Atlas Shrugged, although it amazes me how much the masses will tolerate before they revolt.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 9 months ago
      I've both read and heard on TV that folks used the new "talkie" flicks to at least temporarily forget their woes during the Great Depression.
      Fred Astaire dance scenes, Shirley Temple, singing cowboys, The Wizard of Oz, Flash Gordon in silver underwear, the fantasy list goes on . . .
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years, 9 months ago
    "He enjoyed the sight of a prosperous street; not more than every fourth one of the stores was out of business, its windows dark and empty." --Atlas Shrugged, second page (paperback). I think we are closer to the beginning of Atlas Shrugged than the end. In this novel, Ayn Rand focused primarily on the deteriorating economy rather than on the political upheavals that accompanied it. The economy was already in dire straits when the events in Atlas Shrugged commenced, and it continued going downhill from there. There is still time for the country and the world to take a different path before the arrival of the total economic collapse portrayed in the conclusion of the novel.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      I think you are correct. We are closer to the beginning of AS than the end. One of my best friends retired recently from being a developer. He and his company had built many of the shopping malls around Publix supermarkets in east central Florida. From 1998 when I met him until 2008, his company made a fortune. After 2008, he essentially shrugged in place, building a couple of Publixes since, but nothing else. He sold his half of the company to one of his former employees. She has much undeveloped land, and 1/4 of the stores in my friend's shopping plazas are now out of business, their windows dark and empty. About half of the supermarkets (non-Publix) in our county are now gyms, with empty space around them.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 7 years, 9 months ago
    I know I'm seeing more and more homeless people on street corners with their hand out selling "Homeless Times" newspapers, and I'm in the 'burbs.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 7 years, 9 months ago
    I know the feeling well. A month ago I walked into the Battle Mountain museum to do some research. It was a slow day for the volunteer attendant. We talked about the rich history of mining and ranching and railroading in the area. And then I asked "Why is it more pleasant to contemplate the past than it is the future?" We both fell silent. Damn.
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  • Posted by starguy 7 years, 9 months ago
    When will the trainload of annoying, useless libtards get blown up, in the tunnel?

    That was one of my favorite parts, of "Atlas Shrugged".
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    • Posted by ewv 7 years, 9 months ago
      It was one of the most dramatic making a point about 'innocent' people not looking at the consequences of their own premises, but not a call for blowing people up.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 7 years, 9 months ago
    Although it's tempting to look for general parallels between global events and the story in a novel, keep in mind it is not an Objectivist book of 'Revelations'. ;)

    Was that the Shrek movie about eminent domain or the conniving old woman trying gain political power? :)
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      Of course, AS is not an Objectivist book of 'Revelations', but it has been prescient over the years.

      Shrek 2 was the movie about the conniving old woman (the fairy godmother) trying to gain political power. She "reminds" the king that she turned him into a king from a frog, Blackmail of the first order. Eminent domain, however, was part of the original Shrek when the little pig said, "He huffed and he puffed and he... signed an eviction notice."
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  • Posted by Wanderer 7 years, 9 months ago
    I'm not sure whether people in the Gulch refer to the ORC or this site but, here's a timeline that might enlighten us:

    http://www.noblesoul.com/orc/books/ra...

    Using this chronology I'd say we're in the early sixties. Nobody's started the strike yet or, if he or she has, we haven't noticed, haven't seen anybody important disappear. I'd say the closest we have to a hard driving smart young industrialist is Elon Musk, who's still slogging away at it.

    I'm not sure we'll fall apart in dramatic time. Owning the world's reserve currency may keep us afloat awhile longer. Then again, the collapse, when it happens, because it appears to be financial instead of industrial, could happen in weeks instead of years.

    I never liked Shrek. Don't know why. Want something to warm your hearts? "Dark Horse" a documentary about a Welsh village that bred a champion racehorse. Want something hillarious but, instructive? "Er ist Wieder Da" "Look Who's Back". It was on Netflix. Hillarious and enlightening though, one wonders, if it were made today, instead of several years ago, how much different would it be? She'll deal with it better than you. Young people find it easier than do we to mix fiction and reality.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 9 months ago
      The First Shrek was great then it went down hill.
      The first Mighty Ducks same
      Likewise Goal the three part on soccer third was ...major trash
      Major Leagues one and two ok three garbage.
      Even the last one or two Vigilante Films with Bronson.

      The only series that ran junk rating start to series was Oceans 1 through infinity.

      To work they have to have the original authorship and consistent cast of of something like Sharpes Rifles or the non black and white Star Trek''s whichlasted longeer.

      Star Wars first and second release ok the rest...thumbs down.

      But even great fiction can be ruined right out of the film can version . Jack Reacher and say no more.
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    • Posted by $ 7 years, 9 months ago
      I was unfamiliar with that chronology on that web site. Thank you for the enlightenment. My knowledge of ORC had been previously limited to the foul creatures of Middle Earth by that name.
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