Afterthoughts on Recent God Post

Posted by cksawyer 7 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
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The recent discussion around religion, God, spirituality and Rational Philosophy was extraordinarily thought-provoking for me. Thank you to all who participated.

I have given much thought over the last 25 years to reconciling the meaningful and practical spiritality I choose to make of central importance in my life with my deep grounding in Objectivism and related thought.

Inspired by the recent discussion I have made and attempt to streamline and essentialize the framework I have come to (as of today...ever-evolving).

I want to share it here, and humbly request response, feedback, support and challenge. I believe it contains some good quality thinking. You tell me:

GOD

At any rate, how to streamline and essentialize this...? Ok, I define God as capital R Reality, as a whole in it largest all-inclusive sense. All-that-is. Not each part, process and subset thereof, but EVERY part, process and subset thereof, taken as the single fundamental greatest Unity.

In my spiritual practices (everything I do to build, maintain and grow my relationship with God = my spirituality), I consider 2 aspects of God.

One is what I call Presence, which is the very quality of Beingness which pervades and is shared by Everything That Exists. Through meditation and prayer (not in the traditional sense of that word) and other spiritual practices, I can feel and connect to that infinite reservoir of power and energy to recharge and turbo charge myself to rise above and perform beyond my own finite store of power and energy.

The second aspect is Grace or Spirit or Flow, as you will. This is the intricate field of interlocking beginningless and endless causual connections - The Way of Things. This is where I seek guidance, data and direction beyond my finite store of knowledge and understanding and my limited capacity for wisdom, insight, forsight, intuition and creativity. It is the realm of everything that I don't know that I don't know. It is where what I need to know - when I need to know it, to live at my peak performance and direct
my actions and my life optimally - unfolds as I need to know it in every next Emerging Reality. (My job is to pay attention [LOVE that phrase!], let go of the best-guess snapshot in my head of how reality should be, and continually integrate that data into my ever evolving strategies and next steps.


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  • Posted by 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks for your thoughts, Dave. And I appreciate the good will with which you offer them; I wish that were more common here in the Gulch

    Good points all and I agree. That is why I pay so much attention to definitions (I love the process - my favorite part of Objectivist Epistemology!) , and if for the purpose of theorizing, I am going to use a word differently than the most common meaning, I state my working definition clearly to those with whom I am speaking.

    If they choose to ignore my words and respond based on a different definition than I am using, then they waste a lot of time (and frequently emotional energy 😕) saying things that are not really applicable.

    Btw, I got the word "beingness" from Webster and cross-checked it with several other common dictionaries.
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  • Posted by dwlievert 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    CKSAWYER:

    The purpose of philosophy, ANY philosophy, is happiness and fullfilment.

    Human being's means of survival (and ultimately their happiness and fullfilment) are in the ACTION(S) they choose to take consistent with reality. A precondition of such action(s) is the understanding of same. A precondition to understanding reality is to identify whatever reality you are trying to grasp with clarity and precision. Clarity and precision, in turn, require that the definition of the concepts one MEANS when one identifies and subsequently claims to understand them, is essential in their use.

    When you are alone and just "thinking," said clarity of understanding is consequential only to your potential efficacy in whatever action(s) you might subsequently wish to take in response.

    When attempting to communicate with others however, then to the extent one's DEFINITION of the concept(s) that lie at the base of said communication is crucial. Clarity and precision are the MEANS by which communication is made useful and effective.

    I am not "plowing new ground" here. In reading much of this thread there are others who have essentially indicated what I have stated above.

    My "net" recommendation to you is that you develop far more precision in the definition you ascribe to the concept(s) you use, so as NOT to project broad, all-encompassing abstractions that can mean almost literally anything. You certainly understand that when you do so, then the concepts you use that you claim have great meaning, actually mean almost anything. Consequently, they mean what amounts to the subjective NOT the objective. Said succinctly, they mean nothing at all.

    "Beingness" is but one glaring example.

    Without malice, but with "clarity,"

    Dave
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  • Posted by 7 years, 10 months ago
    To any of you still engaged in this discussion. This is a quote from a letter by Ayn Rand published in the "The Letters of Ayn Rand" collection:

    "Perhaps a philosophical statement could be made defining God and man's relation to God in a way which would not be demeaning to man and his life on earth."

    This is exactly what I have endeavored to do...me, the most spiritual atheist you will ever meet. Lol
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  • Posted by Hot_Black_Desiato 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Therein is the irony.

    If no god, and you die, who cares, what you leave behin. It is totally irelevant, and from a rational self-interest point of view who cares you recieve no value, your dead with nothing but worm bait and decomposition.

    If there is a god then the concept of post death life or something after death becomes totally relevant.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks, Maritimus. I just wanted you to know my real name in case you didn't know it. We've visited Serbia (the former Yugoslavia) -- Novi Sad -- to see a very good friend. He even arranged to have me interviewed on their local TV station: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkdWD...

    Sorry about the war and demonizing.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    God I will not address all have differeing opinions but as for religion? It's for people who are afraid of the dark - and their shadow. Secular or otherwise. As for iyou leftists. Yoda is not God
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  • Posted by Maritimus 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are very much welcome.
    Last few generations of my mother's family lived in Belgrade. They were all Serbs. My father's family are Serbs from Dubrovnik.
    I will certainly always give you credit. Goes without saying.
    Best wishes.
    Sincerely,
    Maritimus
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  • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But should be read and judged as to whether pro mankind, freedom, and life in general. I did not find much of that mixed in with the threats and anti human stuff. Perhaps some of the stuff studied in seminary dealing with historical criticalism
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Wow, Maritimus, thank you for this best compliment ever. It touches me deeply. I did write it to be read and understood by a mind like yours. It is the clearest, briefest and simplest that I have ever been able to pull it all together. Feel free to use it as you need. Just spell my name right in the credits: Kate Jones (aka puzzlelady).

    So, what is your mother tongue? Mine is Hungarian.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I was not clear. First of all, radiation and energy are in no way the same. Radiation is existing stuff like electromagnetic radiation but not like alpha or beta which are matter, while energy is a relative relationship between existing stuff. Matter and radiation are absolute at any local instant of time and measurements are in relation to them only but dynamically measurements can change due to motion of the observer but describable by mathematics.
    However, my " 'Existence' is best just placed in Rand's 'Existence Exists' axiom as a general relation between matter and radiation." just means that the two are related by the property of existence, that existence is a common attribute of the two.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What is important is what an individual believes. I had no belief in the existence of a god when I was born and still none at 76. Being an atheist was only important when someone would want to know if I believed in god or when someone tried to get me to get a belief in the existence of a god. I do admit that since my parents enjoyed the Santa Clause myth that I would stay awake hoping for the arrival of the jolly fellow. That did not last for long. I have always been interested in trying to understand and find out as much as possible about existence but do not spend any time on thinking to myself that "oh it's so big and unknown to me and so awesome that it must have something which thinks behind it all". Even death and dying does not bring out some necessity for a belief in an afterlife or whining about how unfair life is and should require a belief in a deity to make it better.
    Whether my parents were theists or not was only important in that they did not force any beliefs on me and only taught ethics by how they acted and by little stories about honesty, independence, integrity, how to treat others well, etc.
    My interest in Einstein is based on his theoretical science and not his personal life. I never have liked practical jokers which Einstein sometimes was, probably because my father scared me few times with such things as on an April 1st with a large crashing sound and " the floor fell through." Probably not a good thing to do to a little guy. I do applaud Einstein for thinking about and changing some of his boyhood beliefs, but mainly for his thinking about objective reality (a term he used in the EPR paper which tried to counter the spooky action at a distance of an interpretation of quantum mechanics).
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  • Posted by Maritimus 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Dear Puzzlelady,
    Thank you so much for this. I find it simply awesome. You wrote the most articulate, succinct and clear summary on this subject that I have ever found. Perhaps I am not a good searcher. So be it. What you described so beautifully is what I have been convinced of being the truth for decades. If only I had the ability to articulate it so well. I do not envy you. I admire you. Thank you! THANK YOU!!
    Most sincerely,
    Maritimus (a.k.a. - to family - silly deda)
    P.S. In my mother's tongue, deda means grandpa)
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Tell me about it...but I know it all relates...it's hard to express but I literally see it in my mind and I am constantly challenging myself and asking so to speak...to get this right...I don't care about being right. This is important and I often feel I have no right to attempt it but I can't stop. The stuff that comes to mind...I know for a fact...did not come from my brain...I study these things after that fact, thinking it can't be so but I can't refute what I find. I just keep looking to see what's there. A principle I call: Wide Scope Accountability with profound honesty. Definition was published in my first book...laughing, my first attempt at writing.
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  • Posted by 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I hear you. Certainly an intriguing theory, ans I can certainly see electromagnetic events triggering significant changes in primitive cellular life forms - even from complex molecules into life forms.

    However trying to reduce complex human characteristics, causally, too much to phenomena of physical sciences can stretch thin pretty easily.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes it is and it fits in with Jaynes and inhances our integration of it all. As you've observed, I'm entangling quantum physics into the mix because it is the study of the very same particles of energy that our brains "transceive" and what makes up the mind and It's possible connections to it all.
    One of Jaynes students or associates; in the new book, discusses an event that triggers the achievement of self introspection and I know that some natural event, cosmic or solar that not just effected our atmosphere, our magnetic shields but our brains as well. Everything is electric. Also there was a spike in strength of our magnetic shielding about 2400 to 3000 years ago also. Our magnetic shielding has been weakening since. I can see that all these events play a role...but I'm having a tough time putting it all together with reliable resources.
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  • Posted by 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Let it go. You are repeating yourself. I have said everything I think bore saying.

    I do notice that you are getting calmer and more respectful in your communication with every exchange. I appreciate that. Thanks
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  • Posted by jconne 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I Googled "Einstein as a theist" and got a good list. Wikipedia has an article entitled, "Religious views of Albert Einstein" that hardly supports my statement. But here's one one about his later years, "In the last year of his life he said "If I were not a Jew I would be a Quaker."[68]"

    Perhaps you can learn more with more research.
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Branden also published a CD containing the chapter called "The Concept of God" via Audio-Forum. This was likely from the original tapes published in the 60s. I got mine through his website several years ago. With his passing, I'm not clear on its continuing availability.

    I just checked and the CD is not available on either Audio-Forum's site or Branden's site.
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 7 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I noticed elsewhere that there is interest in Nathaniel Branden's lecture on god. While the audio series appears to be out of print, Branden published the lectures in, "The Vision of Ayn Rand". The lecture on god is Chapter 4. The book is available on Amazon, among other locations. I have the Kindle edition as well as an autographed copy.
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