Edward Snowden's Galt-like Interview

Posted by jneilschulman 9 years, 11 months ago to News
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J. Neil Schulman @jneilschulman 37s
The poltroons at Fox News -- excepting @Judgenap -- are betrayers of the Bill of Rights incapable of judging a patriot like Edward Snowden.

J. Neil Schulman @jneilschulman 3m
Watching Brian Williams' interview with Edward Snowden was like watching a real-life John Galt -- and John Kerry is Wesley Mouch.

J. Neil Schulman @jneilschulman 6m
Brian Williams' interview shows Edward Snowden more of a real patriot -- more guts, more considered humility -- than any Fox News poltroon.
SOURCE URL: http://twitter.com/jneilschulman


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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 11 months ago
    I thought one of the most interesting things in the interview was snowden's comment that the US has secretly ruled there is a difference between seize and search under the 4th Amendment vs just seize. This has been their whole argument. we're not listening we're just collecting. Because they are only doing one part of it, they say they are within the bounds of the 4th Amendment. clever and cocky-spying bastards
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
      Read security expert Bruce Schneier on this sophistry in his "Surveillance by Algorithm" at https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-140...

      Here is a critical excerpt:

      "... we've been subjected to all sorts of NSA word games. And the word 'collect' has a very special definition, according to the Department of Defense (DoD). A 1982 procedures manual (page 15) says: 'information shall be considered as 'collected' only when it has been received for use by an employee of a DoD intelligence component in the course of his official duties.' And 'data acquired by electronic means is 'collected' only when it has been processed into intelligible form.'"

      "Director of National Intelligence James Clapper likened the NSA's accumulation of data to a library. All those books are stored on the shelves, but very few are actually read. 'So the task for us in the interest of preserving security and preserving civil liberties and privacy,' says Clapper, 'is to be as precise as we possibly can be when we go in that library and look for the books that we need to open up and actually read.' Only when an individual book is read does it count as 'collection,' in government parlance."

      "So, think of that friend of yours who has thousands of books in his house. According to the NSA, he's not actually 'collecting' books. He's doing something else with them, and the only books he can claim to have 'collected' are the ones he's actually read."

      "This is why Clapper claims -- to this day -- that he didn't lie in a Senate hearing when he replied 'no' to this question: 'Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?'"

      "If the NSA collects -- I'm using the everyday definition of the word here -- all of the contents of everyone's e-mail, it doesn't count it as being collected in NSA terms until someone reads it. And if it collects -- I'm sorry, but that's really the correct word -- everyone's phone records or location information and stores it in an enormous database, that doesn't count as being collected -- NSA definition -- until someone looks at it. If the agency uses computers to search those emails for keywords, or correlates that location information for relationships between people, it doesn't count as collection, either. Only when those computers spit out a particular person has the data -- in NSA terms -- actually been collected."

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      • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
        Here is a related excerpt from Schneier's "Metadata = Surveillance" at https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-140... (on the same long web page as the previous "Surveillance by Algorithm").

        "...we've been repeatedly assured by government officials that it's 'only metadata.' This might fool the average person, but it shouldn't fool those of us in the security field. Metadata equals surveillance data, and collecting metadata on people means putting them under surveillance."

        "... Imagine that you hired a private detective to eavesdrop on a subject. That detective would plant a bug in that subject's home, office, and car. He would eavesdrop on his computer. He would listen in on that subject's conversations, both face to face and remotely, and you would get a report on what was said in those conversations. (This is what President Obama repeatedly reassures us isn't happening with our phone calls. But am I the only one who finds it suspicious that he always uses very specific words? 'The NSA is not listening in on your phone calls.' This leaves open the possibility that the NSA is recording, transcribing, and analyzing your phone calls -- and very occasionally reading them. This is far more likely to be true, and something a pedantically minded president could claim he wasn't lying about.)"

        "Now imagine that you asked that same private detective to put a subject under constant surveillance. You would get a different report, one that included things like where he went, what he did, who he spoke to -- and for how long -- who he wrote to, what he read, and what he purchased. This is all metadata, data we know the NSA is collecting. So when the president says that it's only metadata, what you should really hear is that we're all under constant and ubiquitous surveillance."

        "What's missing from much of the discussion about the NSA's activities is what they're doing with all of this surveillance data. The newspapers focus on what's being collected, not on how it's being analyzed -- with the singular exception of the Washington Post story on cell phone location collection. By their nature, cell phones are tracking devices. For a network to connect calls, it needs to know which cell the phone is located in. In an urban area, this narrows a phone's location to a few blocks. GPS data, transmitted across the network by far too many apps, locates a phone even more precisely. Collecting this data in bulk, which is what the NSA does, effectively puts everyone under physical surveillance."

        "This is new. Police could always tail a suspect, but now they can tail everyone -- suspect or not. And once they're able to do that, they can perform analyses that weren't otherwise possible...."

        In other words, they are trying to dance around the fact that "metadata" is collection of a _kind_ of surveillance data, not non-data or "not collected".

        Scheier's blogs, articles and lectures on this topic are invaluable. He can explain what is happening because he is a true expert (and author of the classic technical tomb Applied Crytography). Whatever his personal politics and whether or not you agree with all his recommendations, he has extreme intelligence, insights, objectivity, honesty and integrity. He also has a very good basic approach in recognizing the kinds of things that NSA _should_ be doing as well as what it should not. He's not just going after the agency by 'making a case' through any means possible the way you expect lawyers and politicians to demagog it.

        NSA is doing things and is capable of doing things that most people couldn't imagine. The extent of this scandal and its Constitutional implications are staggering, far more than what most people seem to realize.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 11 months ago
    I liked Rand Paul's take on the matter.

    Should Edward Snowden be treated as a whistle-blower? I believe he should, as he was pointing out clearly illegal activity on the part of the US Government.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
      Snowden knew he had to do more than the usual 'whistle blowing' because several predecessors had tried that and failed. They were dismissed and marginalized by a sustained government cover-up and brutally hounded and persecuted by the FBI for their efforts. Snowden saw that the only way to have an impact was through massive, irrefutable documentation, and that is what he did.

      This has been reported over the last year if you know where to look, but for the latest condensation watch the recent PBS Frontline two-part, three hour documentary "United States of Secrets".
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  • Posted by DaveM49 9 years, 11 months ago
    Edward Snowden strikes me in many respects as being a John Galt-like figure. He refused to let his work be used for potentially evil ends, so he quit. Though in a bit of a twist, he showed his work to the world as justification for his actions. With much the same ideological reaction as the original got for leaving the product of his work abandoned on a trash heap.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
      When ABC news reported on the latest interview in Russia of Snowden accompanied by video clips of Snowden and Kerry, it remarked on Snowden's calmness and coolness, then said "of course he was coached". They had to try to undermine the sincerity of his action and explanations, which is characteristic of him. When Kerry let out his obviously planned obnoxious demagogic 'talking points' taunting that Snowden "man up" and return to the US to be sacrificed in the name of "law", ABC made no attempt to report on what Kerry was trying to pull and its meaning.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 11 months ago
    The NSA is trying to rebut Snowden's claims by saying they have only one e-mail from him, and that was three months after he reached out to The Guardian.

    The truth of the matter might not come out until we change the party that has the President. One could file a FOIA request, but they'll just shout "national security" and stop all process.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      FOIA requests have become a joke. I submitted a several around 2008 and they tried to bury me in costs, or said there was nothing related to my requests. One the person in charge was 'honest' enough to tell me I was getting too close to a political issue and would get nothing unless I rephrased my question.
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      • Posted by ewv 9 years, 11 months ago
        Sometimes the best approach is to try an informal approach first, seeking out a helpful clerk or lower official who will send you what you want without the formality of FOIA. When you submit a FOIA request to an agency, especially on a politically controversial topic, the bureaucrats go into "bunker mode". If you do use FOIA, you have to cite the exemptions for fees in the FOIA law which apply to you. Sometimes even with that you need to follow up using a cooperating non-profit law firm resubmitting your request along with "instructions" on what will happen to them if they try to charge for it.

        But the way these agencies try to illegally hide information is legendary, ranging from refusing to return the certified mail return-receipt in order to dodge the fact that they received a request (a Federal agency is allowed to handle the receipt itself rather than have the post office do it), to denials in a response to you accompanied by the agency's rewriting of the FOIA law on their own behalf, to outright denials of documents they (and you) know they have. I have seen it all. In one instance they denied the existence of a document which I already had a part of from a leak and was trying to get the rest of. Sometimes these battles over a single request can go on for years with all kinds of chicanery, as been recently illustrated by Mark Levin's Landmark Legal Foundation and others over the EPA and IRS.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 11 months ago
    Hello jneilschulman,
    I have some sympathy for Snowden. Imagine the dilemma he must have faced; what law should he abide by? The one some bureaucrats established or the highest law of the land, the Constitution? We need a better system for justice through our Supreme Court. Any law that so flagrantly violates the Constitution should exonerate anyone who violates it in favor of the Constitution. Sure he broke the law. Occasionally laws are found to be unconstitutional and therefore unlawful. Are they not? “The law is a ass.” Dickens. I believe, unfortunately at this time, with this administration, it is doubtful that Snowden could get a fair hearing. For crying out loud, the guy who put out the video that didn't cause the Benghazi attack is still in a halfway house serving out the remainder of his sentence... So far our government has not produced one example of someone being harmed by what he released, though it is clear that the rights of millions of Americans have been violated. The government breaks laws with impunity routinely, yet no one is held to account. Snowden points this out and some want his head. If the government can do what Snowden has shown, and you were in his place, what chance would you expect for justice?
    Is it Galt like? I don’t know. Perhaps it is more Ragnar like…

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by Storo 9 years, 11 months ago
    Snowden's actions must be put in context. If what he did is treason, then what did the left's lovable Daniel Ellsberg do when he disclosed the top secret Pentagon Papers during a time of war? Ellsberg got off that hook. All Snowden did was inform the American people of the clandestine and arguably illegal activities of their own government against them and against others including foreign leaders. I give him a hardy "Well done!!"
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 9 years, 11 months ago
    I'm still undecided about Snowden. I read that he believed in the conspiracies surrounding the HAARP research center, in Alaska. If this is true, unfortunately, it totally destroys his credibility, in my eyes.
    I'll have to see much more, before I'm convinced that he did anything good for this country and consider him anything like J.G.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      Distraction. He has proven that the US government spies on its citizens all the time without a warrant. No one would question this if they went into our houses and made copies of papers.
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  • Posted by $ MAK 9 years, 11 months ago
    Hiraghm is correct - the traitors to the Crown were patriots of the American Revolution and absolutely understood the circumstances and consequences of what they were about - and stood in the door anyway. That's the gold standard and the very definition of courage of convictions and bravery in action. Snowden isn't even in the same universe. His activities - and those of the apologencia attempting to mask his traitorous actions after the fact - have been all about claiming uber-patriot status while seeking to avoid the consequences of his actions - that's cowardly and sniveling and a rank insult to true patriots who have given their all - to those who are as we go back and forth on this,and those who will in the future - as they will again and again - as we always ask them to do. Until he comes home to deal with the very enemy he has proclaimed he's nothing more than a ranting idelaogue, a common criminal as the thief that he is, and a traitor against the oath and the promises he made to this country - his country - our country..
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      What part of "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." is opaque to you? The NSA spy programs does none of that -- and the secret FISA court is part of the executive branch not the judiciary so it can't approve warrants in any event.

      So the "laws" thatr Edward Snowden admits to "violating" are repugnant to the Constituion, therefore void ab initio -- and the rest of your ranting accusation is apologies for despotism. Whatever you are you have never read Ayn Rand with comprehension.
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    • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 11 months ago
      If one was to follow your logic, then it would have been every German citizen's duty to follow the Nazi laws and kill the enemies of the State? After all, those laws were no less legal as just as illegitimate as the laws that Snowden broke.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      Jefferson, Washington, Adams were not about getting their heads cut off, which would have been not avoiding the circumstances. The obvious failure to follow your own logic shows your bias.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 11 months ago
    before you put snowden on a pedestal I think you show read Peter Schwartz article on his web site which explains very clearly why snowden is a traitor to us in the usa.
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  • Posted by Pharmed01 9 years, 11 months ago
    Snowden may have been motivated for patriotic reasons but his action was a clear violation of the Law by his own admission, and he is accountable.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      Unconstitutional acts, policies, and programs are void ab initio so there was no law for Edward Snowden to break. When the government commits crimes those who bring them to justice must operate outside of the broken system.
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      • Posted by Pharmed01 9 years, 11 months ago
        that's for the court's to decide and he could have handled this in a different way than walking out of NSA with classified documents.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
          No, it's not for the courts to decide. Marbury v Madison was a judicial coup d'etats against the right of the people to decide for themselves what laws are constitutional or otherwise abhorrent.to their liberties.
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          • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 11 months ago
            Maybe we should consider, had the founders of this country faced the British court system they would likely all have been killed and we would still be under British rule.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
          No you can't use the Nuremberg defense. It is not just for the courts to decide. And all those coward in the military and intelligence agencies that knew this was going on should be tried as traitors.
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  • Posted by jpellone 9 years, 11 months ago
    My take on Mr. Snowden is two fold; First, he DID steal Top Secret information using other peoples access which is treason, BUT, he could not in good conscience let the Government get away with spying on all Americans!!! I may have done the same thing... It's hard to say???

    President Bush should never have signed into law "The Patriot Act" especially since Obama has changed it to really tie the hands of the American people...
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      It is not Treason. Treason is defined in the Constitution as:

      Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

      The people making war on the US are those people in the government who knew this was going on - they should be tried for Treason.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      If Edward Snowden committed treason then so did every man who fought the soldiers at Lexington and Concord, every signer of the Declaration of Independence, every participant in the Continental Congress, every soldier who fought under George Washington, anyone who worked with the government's enemy -- the French.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 11 months ago
        Snowden committed treason when he ran. Even Billy Mitchell faced court-martial to correct a perceived error.

        Every soldier who fought under Washington, etc... yes! They were all traitors to the British crown. I don't see where Snowden is looking to start his own country, though. And the last time anyone tried seceding from *this* country, 600,000 men died.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
          I agree with the technical correction given below by dbhalling of treason as defined in he Constitution. Nonetheless even as used as a loose epithet meaning disloyalty -- Snowden's loyalty is to the American people's rights and individual liberties -- not to the villainous poltroons who in the name of security violate the Bill of Rights and act criminally under color of law. This, by the way, is a crime currently posted on the Department of Justice website:

          http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/242...

          DEPRIVATION OF RIGHTS UNDER COLOR OF LAW
          Summary:

          Section 242 of Title 18 makes it a crime for a person acting under color of any law to willfully deprive a person of a right or privilege protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States.

          For the purpose of Section 242, acts under "color of law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the their lawful authority, but also acts done beyond the bounds of that official's lawful authority, if the acts are done while the official is purporting to or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. Persons acting under color of law within the meaning of this statute include police officers, prisons guards and other law enforcement officials, as well as judges, care providers in public health facilities, and others who are acting as public officials. It is not necessary that the crime be motivated by animus toward the race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status or national origin of the victim.

          The offense is punishable by a range of imprisonment up to a life term, or the death penalty, depending upon the circumstances of the crime, and the resulting injury, if any.

          TITLE 18, U.S.C., SECTION 242

          Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, ... shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnaping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 11 months ago
            His fleeing to our enemies with this classified information is no way absolved by his also revealing the spying by the NSA of American citizens.

            And the way to determine whether or not Section 242 of Title 18 is by trying Snowden. But, we can't do that, because he ran off to hide among our enemies.

            I still don't know what information he had, and now our enemies have, that was not revealed by the media.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 11 months ago
            "technical correction given below by dbhalling of treason as defined in he Constitution. "

            Technial correction?

            U.S. code doesn't "correct" the Constitution. We are a republic, for God's sake. The only way to "correct" the Constitution (something I regard as impossible, myself) would be to amend it.
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    Posted by $ MAK 9 years, 11 months ago
    Seems to me that Galt would not do what Snowden did by perpetrating a deliberate criminal act - but if he did he would act understanding and fully accepting that there are always consequences to be dealt with as a responsible person - not something I think that Snowden has any intention of subjecting himself to. With that, I deny any attribution as to "heroism" (on any level) on Snowden’s part or for his professed "for the greater good" actions as "there is nothing altruistic" ... as there is no validity in the touted "higher purpose" or presumption of social redemption when one refuses to face the full measure for one's deliberate actions - that is to say take full personal responsibility rather than weaseling and begging off after the fact/deed. All of that added to the fact that he acted as a traitor would ending up in Russia after first attempting "assylum" in China (and other countries hostile to our country). All said though, none of this excuses in any way the government's gross transgressions of liberty and against the long-accepted letter and intent of the Constitution. In my thinking time is long past for discussion - noting that the ultimate realities of these long-running, willful and "righteously justified" abuses - and their true consequences - are already deeply embedded facts of our existence. I believe we are really only just beginning to see the impacts and the extraordinary implications of these "over-watch” and “over-reach" realities emerge - even though they have been entirely and accurately predicted on many fronts since before our country's founding - but not properly feared over our history nor dealt with as they should have been all along - through constant vigilance and vigorous assertion of the basic law - and failing that remedy then acceptance of responsibility to apply proper and adequate force when and as is sometimes necessary to re-set the balance when all viable options are exhausted or gravely judged as ultimately ineffective to our cause.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 11 months ago
      MAK your arguments are beyond absurd. Someone just pointed out Ragnar to you.

      Why are you on this site? No Objectivist basis his decisions on "the greater good" of on altruism or high purpose or social redemption.

      I think what Snowden did was in his rational self interest, which aligns with my rational self interest in the US government having to follow the 4th amendment. Since you are talking about consequences, why aren't you talking about everyone in the military and intelligence agencies that knew this was going on. They should all be tried for treason. Snowden should not.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 11 months ago
        Ragnar is not Galt.

        In case you hadn't noticed, non-Objectivists other than myself also participate here. Are you looking for an echo chamber?

        It is in my rational self-interest to prevent the U.S. government from violating my 4th Amendment rights. It is against my rational self-interest for a fellow citizen to run to my country's enemies with secretive information which could aid *them* in both spying on me, and preventing my government from spying on them.

        If we're going to try government employees for treason, I guess we'll have to try Clinton, Bush, Jr, and every U.S. soldier who put on the blue U.N. armband and/or helmet... except for Michael New.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 11 months ago
      Galt would never perpetrate a criminal act? What about Ragnar the Pirate? What abour Howard Roark blowing up a building because its architecture violated his intellectual property rights? What about Dagny Taggart shooting the soldier guarding John Galt? This is a discussion forum for those who actually read, understand, and appreciate the writings of Ayn Rand, isn't it?
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