Are earth based utopia's possible?
Writing out my beliefs to express to a member here raised a question about the rationality of a Utopian society on Earth (Atlantis included). Are these shiny models of who we hope to be, no matter what the origin or endpoint, not what amounts to unattainable goals that we strive for but cannot, for a variety of reasons, obtain?
Human nature is fixed. The Founding Fathers saw this and created an environment which catered to human nature while providing for a modest amount of structure to galvanize a society based on self reliance and supply and demand. The didn't strive for paradise and left paradise to the individual to carve out for him/herself whether on Earth or in an afterlife. The Founding Fathers, as private citizens, just wanted to be left alone todo what they wanted.
Socialist and Communist Utopia is unattainable because of human nature.
Objectivist Atlantis may well be the same. Sure 10, 20, or perhaps 50 people could get together to form their own group but the reality of human nature will cause that group to splinter, the more people in the group the faster the splintering.
At its core, is not Objectisim a lifelong effort to strive to be...just live every other belief out there? If you don't think so, how?
PS
I have to add, I'm not trying to stir things up by committing the Objectivist equivalent of blasphemy or to besmirch Rand, Galt, Objectivism or any Objectivist in any way. I do honestly wonder if human nature prevents us for reaching that high-bar that many people strive to grasp.
Human nature is fixed. The Founding Fathers saw this and created an environment which catered to human nature while providing for a modest amount of structure to galvanize a society based on self reliance and supply and demand. The didn't strive for paradise and left paradise to the individual to carve out for him/herself whether on Earth or in an afterlife. The Founding Fathers, as private citizens, just wanted to be left alone todo what they wanted.
Socialist and Communist Utopia is unattainable because of human nature.
Objectivist Atlantis may well be the same. Sure 10, 20, or perhaps 50 people could get together to form their own group but the reality of human nature will cause that group to splinter, the more people in the group the faster the splintering.
At its core, is not Objectisim a lifelong effort to strive to be...just live every other belief out there? If you don't think so, how?
PS
I have to add, I'm not trying to stir things up by committing the Objectivist equivalent of blasphemy or to besmirch Rand, Galt, Objectivism or any Objectivist in any way. I do honestly wonder if human nature prevents us for reaching that high-bar that many people strive to grasp.
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In any event, I chose "earth based" specifically to refer to what happens here on earth (pretty simple meaning) regardless of its ideology and to avoid this conversation. Afterlife utopia removes will from the picture and its something I have no taste for. For the record any utopia-concept, to me, outside of personal satisfaction, is the same as the next- throughly unrealistic for human beings.
Don't worry ewv, as you well know, I don't hesitate to write exactly what I mean no matter what you think of me or whether you feel I should be here or not.
Lastly, you would honestly stand on Rands hidden valley not being her version of a "utopian" society? Feasible or not, she created that example because it perfectly illustrated her ideology in a practical sense (at least for the sake of her novel). Utopia = any visionary system of political or social perfection. (http://dictionary.com)
Being human, I often fail to do the very thing I complain about. However, I usually get it right eventually.
What is fixed about human nature? We evolved to this point both through natural selection and an evolving of knowledge and its propagation across generations and other things such as cultural evolution. We are able to reason and understand much and increasingly even our own genetics. So I don't think human is static forever.
Frankly I think we must evolve to survive and take some deeper control of our own becoming. The world and its demands is moving to fast to stand still.
Assuming we accomplish all that...then yea, we might achieve some sort of balanced society, civilization and existence. But, I would assign a very low degree of probability to our success of these goals.
It, indeed may be fruitless but I still think we each need to stride toward that goal post.
I figure if any ideology, any of them, seriously sought to control the world a culling would be in consideration, its the only way to ensure you're numbers dominate the dissenters.
True story...very interesting.
One constant - human nature, we can strive to change it, even fool ourselves for a while, but when it comes down to it, we do whats in our own best interest 100% of the time.
America succeeded at first because they were able to separate the people who aspired to freedom and personal rule from those who were content to live in slavery. Because there is no more place on this planet to start fresh, there must be some event to separate those who once again desire a return to freedom and personal rule from those which do not. Natural disasters and wars have a tendency to do this to some degree, even though they are usually quite destructive in their methods.
The Valley in Atlas Shrugged was a place to thrive for those who accepted proper moral principles, by invitation during a time of collapse of society. It was a fictional device to illustrate how the best live in accordance with proper moral principles, not advocacy of isolated, small hidden utopian enclaves of "paradise" to remain "untainted by outside influences". Ayn Rand advocated a political society based on Constitutional government with limited powers, with corrections to the original American Constitution.
Those who do not read her philosophy and approach to life will continue to spread screwy misconceptions based on their own confusions.
Oh, yes you are. But that's OK with me. Stirring things up is what makes the world of humans go 'round. At my age, I'm already in Utopia. Maybe that's what the elders thought heaven might be. The only responsibilities are those imposed on me by the PTB (Powers That Be) or myself. I do as I damn well please. But then -- Reality Check! Those damn PTB in Washington or Tallahassee (My village is pretty OK) keep intruding on my Utopia. Actually, AJ you answered your own question so well, that's there's not a heluva a lot more to be said on the subject.
Hitler promised a utopia for those included in a mythical Aryan race to the expense of everyone else..
Marx dreamed of one world-wide.
Millions have died for the socialist utopian myths and many are still group-think slaves of the one called Communism.
The promise, never the reality, of group-think utopias come in different forms and are always initially led by some charismatic creature such as Jim Jones.
Can you feel the b-b-b-Kool-Aid?
as you know it has been tried many times and the success rate is zero, except in very primitive societies such as jungle people who have no enemy's. They exist as they have for who knows how many years in a state of unchanging existence.
Crime is a part of human nature. Any society needs police to deal with crime. Atlantis had a military--meaning Ragnar Danneskjöld's ship--and something like a judiciary--Judge Narragansett's law and arbitration practice. But it had no police. It did not even seem to have a security force, beyond a resident militia. That worked for only one reason: John Galt carefully invited only those who wouldn't think of committing crimes against fellow refugees.
So what do you do when the next generation achieves majority? Indeed, Rand did not even treat the subject of "legal majority" or "emancipation." So when a member of that next generation commits crime, what do you do?
People are individuals. An oddball will always emerge. That being good or bad depends on the personality.
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