Are earth based utopia's possible?
Writing out my beliefs to express to a member here raised a question about the rationality of a Utopian society on Earth (Atlantis included). Are these shiny models of who we hope to be, no matter what the origin or endpoint, not what amounts to unattainable goals that we strive for but cannot, for a variety of reasons, obtain?
Human nature is fixed. The Founding Fathers saw this and created an environment which catered to human nature while providing for a modest amount of structure to galvanize a society based on self reliance and supply and demand. The didn't strive for paradise and left paradise to the individual to carve out for him/herself whether on Earth or in an afterlife. The Founding Fathers, as private citizens, just wanted to be left alone todo what they wanted.
Socialist and Communist Utopia is unattainable because of human nature.
Objectivist Atlantis may well be the same. Sure 10, 20, or perhaps 50 people could get together to form their own group but the reality of human nature will cause that group to splinter, the more people in the group the faster the splintering.
At its core, is not Objectisim a lifelong effort to strive to be...just live every other belief out there? If you don't think so, how?
PS
I have to add, I'm not trying to stir things up by committing the Objectivist equivalent of blasphemy or to besmirch Rand, Galt, Objectivism or any Objectivist in any way. I do honestly wonder if human nature prevents us for reaching that high-bar that many people strive to grasp.
Human nature is fixed. The Founding Fathers saw this and created an environment which catered to human nature while providing for a modest amount of structure to galvanize a society based on self reliance and supply and demand. The didn't strive for paradise and left paradise to the individual to carve out for him/herself whether on Earth or in an afterlife. The Founding Fathers, as private citizens, just wanted to be left alone todo what they wanted.
Socialist and Communist Utopia is unattainable because of human nature.
Objectivist Atlantis may well be the same. Sure 10, 20, or perhaps 50 people could get together to form their own group but the reality of human nature will cause that group to splinter, the more people in the group the faster the splintering.
At its core, is not Objectisim a lifelong effort to strive to be...just live every other belief out there? If you don't think so, how?
PS
I have to add, I'm not trying to stir things up by committing the Objectivist equivalent of blasphemy or to besmirch Rand, Galt, Objectivism or any Objectivist in any way. I do honestly wonder if human nature prevents us for reaching that high-bar that many people strive to grasp.
Previous comments... You are currently on page 2.
Back to the same individual he noted the great fear was changing too much too fast. He explained the education system for him to be in charge of overhauling huge ocean ships. Four years engineering, four years more marine engineering and four years business management with at least two foreign and one extra in country language required. The difference was he was assigned to those schools and tasks. He said,'If I need 500 welders tomorrow I make a call. 500 show up not one less nor one http://more
My nephew in Australia buys a lot of items from China. He said no matter what I wish to sell in my shops I have only to contact their business representative with the need. Prototype within the month finished products within three months.
Contrast that to the USA or for that matter Canada. One difference. China doesn't seem to know of the meaning of the word lawyers.
Yet everyone has a cell phone and a bicycle and they all do regimented morning exercises prior to the work whistle.
Interesting development from just a few decades ago.
Also, it's pretty odd to psychoanalyze Christian mythology on a generally atheistic website, but you would need to forgive yourself for not being in paradise and then let go of the feelings of regret for listening to "the Snake". Sounds absurd? That's because it totally is. If you could let go of the thought of fixing the world, then you're in a good place, then you're in the Gulch.
Remember the whole part about not living for another man, and not asking him to live for you? Yup.
Community, which is what they had, is a loose type of society. They held common thoughts, attitudes and values. They shrugged to the same hidden area, settled together in the same relative proximity, and established a commerce system between them using gold.
Community - a feeling of fellowship with others, as a result of sharing common attitudes, interests, and goals.
Society - people in general thought of as living together in organized communities with shared laws, traditions, and values.
There is a verse in the Bible (paraphrasing): “Go ye forth from the presence of a man when thou has perceived, NOT in him,` the lips of knowledge.”
Basically translated: “Don’t try to argue with an idiot.”
The fact that you replied to ewv's post makes me question, who’s the idiot?
By suppressed or overcome I refer to Communism and socialism, each must have, by force if need be, their populations go against their nature to provide for others and acquiesce their individual authority to their own lives to a governing elite.
In a specific setting for a specific reason. They lived there in their own form of society, one Rand saw as perfect to illustrate her philosophy. Authors don't add anything to a story without a purpose.
In a nutshell humans don't work for free. Give them a moochers share they are happy as claims. Absent that give them a looters share they are still happy to do the work expected. Give them any easy way out they take it. but if they absolutely have to work to eat...great things happen. Until they are fed.
But some a small few work for other reasons. Those if not getting paid 'on the job' create a new job site.
It is obvious that you have no idea what I'm talking about and are, as you always have been, stuck in your own myopia as well as any impassioned thumper of any doctrine anywhere.
Back to iggy...
Concerto being performed live by Richard himself. In the sun drenched valley nestled between towering peaks of colored granite, down the road from Ellis Wyatt,s cruising along in Midas Mulligan's Cadillac convertible heading to meet The judge :not a looter in the whole gulch! Enthralled by the handsome inventor of " the motor" sitting next to her.......
Utopia = any visionary system of political or social perfection. (http://dictionary.com)
Rand certainly did use her valley as a utopia of sorts to present her vision of a society centered on her ideology. Author 101, anything you add to a story must somehow present the meanings you wish your story to convey: people, places, dialog, events, natural acts, etc all are tools to present a message. Rand used those tools just as any other offer does.
There are no utopian societies prescribed in Objectivism.
We have described what Ayn Rand was doing in that part of the novel and it isn't what you mischaracterize it as.
Load more comments...