That about nails it!

I make no claims about the man himself, I simply found this quote to be applicable. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The function of gold is as a medium of trade. You are correct that one can not trade or represent that which one does not have. But one can not build a civilization based on debt. It has never worked and never will. Savings have always been the instrument of building a lasting foundation - either for a business or for a nation.

Had a friend who very much resembled Dennis Franz in appearance and behaved liked Sipowicz.......a little bit eerie.............BT

I will join those who love that quote.
However, poetry is not truth.

The explanation from MM is not as punchy but that is how it is.
For a fictional description of a libertarian society in which there was debt see
'And Then There Were None'
http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell/e_...

MM, what is you opinion on why Christianity and Islam both abhor debt?
The rejection of the older sister is simplistic and wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Torah is only the Five books of Moses - the Pentateuch. Yes it is the Guiding principles of the Israelites (13 Tribes not just Judah eg Jews) and the guiding principles of Jesus. FYI, There is no 'Old' Testament according to Pope John Paul II. This was a pejorative naming to say that the New replaced the old.. The testament called Brit in Hebrew (Don't ask How can it be Hebrew when we all know a Brit is English. Ha Ha) is a covenant that remains in effect for all Israelites. So it isn't old. The church now recognizes that the 'new' Testament does not replace the brit/covenant . It is not new (as in replaced) but rather another testament for Christians.

So, what is paper...something to use in the toilet?

Isn't the Torah the Old Testament in the Bible? And isn't the Torah the guiding principles of the religion of Judaism?

this is fascinating, Larry;;; you might want to start a
new thread about it, yes? -- j
.

debt is a bet that net positive productivity will occur. -- j
.

Norm was insightful;;; we have debt = we are slaves. -- j
.

Very astute.

A primary what?

Can't argue with any of that...

Ah, yes...............Sipowicz (sp?) BT

Power is the money of kings. Suitors to power are the monies of those who would be king. Debt is what the poor schmucks have that keep them in power. -- Dennis Franz (Not really)

Mike M:
Why don't you tell us how you really feel?
But seriously, you have in a relatively few words explained and destroyed the metal money mystique.

We dont have any other choices due to the crooked two party system. Anyway, over 50% of the people here are entitled and want free goodies others will pay for to one extent or another. Trump is better than Hillary, who is better than Sanders. Cruz is some religious zealot and will do anything to get the power or the presidency for himself. Kasich has as much charisma to get things done as Jimmy Carter, and will never be elected.

Actually, its not a bad saying. Of course, each of us can be a little bit of all those groups. I have some gold and silver also and I sometimes trade things and have debt too.

The Torah does give a plan for Capitalism - through Loans, charity and a 7 year cycle of debt consolidation.

The Torah is a message encoded in Hebrew (one of the offshoots of the original language http://www.edenics.org) that contains the 10 realities of civilization and freedom. One has to read it in the original Hebrew, not a translation, and intimately understand Hebrew to understand it's meaning which is only revealed as Scientific knowledge increases.

Would you be surprised to know that there are no commandments, nor sacrifices, nor the concept of sin, hell and even God as it is has been imagined by men, in the message contained in the Torah. All has been mistranslated. Do what the founders did. Learn Hebrew and base society on what is contained there.

Did you know that all the philosophers like Locke and the others the founders read were informed by the Gemarah, e.g. the discussion of case law based on the Torah?

Did you know that the original US Constitutional Republic was based on the Torah (not Rome)? Did you know that the founders read the Torah in Hebrew? Did you know that the original Seal of the US showed Moses Parting the Reed Sea, the Egyptians tyrants consumed and the Burning Bush representing connection to infinite intelligence.
Resistance to tyrants is Obedience to God was their motto.

Religion and Torah are two separate things. Don't confuse them.

" Debt is the seed of civilization."
In the Biblical times values was tied to land. There was only so much land. So it was harder to envision a scenario where someone creates value, wants to store the value in ventures that create more value, lends it to someone who has an idea but needs means of production, and both parties end up with more value at the end. Instead they saw a world of finite value. The main reason to borrow money, in this less civilized world, was because you wanted to consume something before you'd earned the money to pay for it. That's still common today. When debt is used because the buyer cannot wait to consume, I agree with the quote that debt is the money of people with a slave-like mindset.

"Gold is all right, as far as it goes, but the only reason it "goes" anywhere is because productivity takes it there. "
I love this quote. It works for any medium of exchange: USD, Euros, bitcoin, all precious metals.

Norm Franz is an idiot.
"Ascension Ministries is a biblically (torah) based, end time prophetic ministry which sheds the light of Torah on events occuring in the last days." -- http://ascensionministries.net

Money and Wealth in the New Millennium is a Bible based financial education package that unravels the economic mysteries of the last days.

He does not know much about money. Debt is the seed of civilization. It represents sophisticated conceptualization of productivity and the time value of money. It also works because we have good reason to be optimistic about the future and our ability to control our own destinies.
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...

Mexico and the other Spanish colonies had tons of gold and silver. The British colonies of North America had none. Who prospered? Gold is all right, as far as it goes, but the only reason it "goes" anywhere is because productivity takes it there. And productivity is not a primary.

Then I'll take my fee in Gold Sir