Development research.

Posted by tkstone 3 years, 5 months ago to Economics
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Given the lively discussion on topic of "cities are the answer" I am curious to know what would a desirable lot size be for prospective Gulch buyers? Many on this sight seem to prefer self sufficiency. I am in that camp, but there also appear to be those that would just as soon trade for most things. So what say you?


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  • Posted by dbhalling 3 years, 5 months ago
    Self Sufficiency is a prescription for proverty
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    • Posted by ewv 3 years, 5 months ago
      "Can man derive any personal benefit from living in a human society? Yes—if it is a human society. The two great values to be gained from social existence are: knowledge and trade. Man is the only species that can transmit and expand his store of knowledge from generation to generation; the knowledge potentially available to man is greater than any one man could begin to acquire in his own life-span; every man gains an incalculable benefit from the knowledge discovered by others. The second great benefit is the division of labor: it enables a man to devote his effort to a particular field of work and to trade with others who specialize in other fields. This form of cooperation allows all men who take part in it to achieve a greater knowledge, skill and productive return on their effort than they could achieve if each had to produce everything he needs, on a desert island or on a self-sustaining farm.

      "But these very benefits indicate, delimit and define what kind of men can be of value to one another and in what kind of society: only rational, productive, independent men in a rational, productive, free society..." -- .Ayn Rand, "The Objectivist Ethics"
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    • Posted by term2 3 years, 5 months ago
      In the long run, self sufficiency means you have to produce everything that you need for your life, leaving little time for much other than supplying shelter and food.

      But in the short run during the collapsing of a society, it could spell the difference between disaster and at least a semi-normal life.

      I think an acre or two is a good size plot to allow for some agriculture (although hydroponics would produce more) , energy production, and defense over a 6-12 month period. Your own water supply would be essential also, or agriculture would not thrive.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 5 months ago
      Self sufficiency is relative. Each member of the Gulch relied on themselves to produce and trade. As their proficiency progressed their trade increased. We will all reach a level we are happy at. Where is yours? How do you define poverty? JG lived in a run down flat 11 months out of the year, but in my mind he was one of the richest n the planet for he was able to focus on that which meant the most to him.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 3 years, 5 months ago
        True self sufficiency is a prescription for living on the edge of starvation. The closer to being self sufficient the poorer your will be.
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        • Posted by term2 3 years, 5 months ago
          I would say there is a peak in terms of quality of life and self sufficiency. Today we are past the peak- we are too dependent on others for almost everything that we enjoy. I grow no food, generate no electricity, make no gasoline for transportation, make no cars, do not provide the internet, and am dependent on the banks and credit cards. Its gone too far, and we have let the government control all these things already. We need to be more self sufficient
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    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 5 months ago
      especially if you can't get seeds to grow. For some of us it's business as usual.
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      • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 5 months ago
        I live on a boat but have an allotment to grow what I need or most of it. Thanks to a formative early life on a farm with FFA and 4H and depression era parents it's not a big deal to me as it would be for a city dweller. We now are having farmers markets and tiangas are a long time local habit. I often think what's the big deals. Backwoods Home has published articles on it for years for those who are citydweller challenged. If you can find it read a book called "Feed your family on $5 a day." Written by a woman in the Phoenix, AZ area. Then forget everything you learned in NEW YARK CITEEEEEE!!!!!! It doesn't count in real life not as much as a jar of home grown home made Pace Picante.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 3 years, 5 months ago
    I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Members of the Gulch society succeed because they can produce something of value to other members and can exchange these goods or services with their fellow citizens. If you want to establish a winery you will need many acres but if you produce computer software you only need a house or business location large enough to house your necessary equipment. A viable society has many producers of a wide range of products and services. Each has its own unique requirements.
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  • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 3 years, 5 months ago
    My interest in the gulch would be to have an environment where productive people could create and implement innovations free of the drag of a bureaucracy, a place where we could leap-frog into the future without being held back by the regulatory overhead and the drain from the looters filling their pockets.

    I don't see it as everyone spinning their own clothes and planting a garden. Think "The Jetsons".
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  • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 5 months ago
    I have read a number of "Gulch" discussions on this site and have a nagging recurring thought that keeps bothering me in the back of my head about the whole concept and proposed solutions. That is, no matter how well the thinking seems to be regarding the creation of a Gulch, the inhabitants (with a few exceptions) need to be willing to accept an early 19th century standard of living in order to escape the looters and collectivists who seem to be hell bent on driving us back into... an early 19th century standard of living!

    Am I the only one who has these thoughts? I would like very much to live in and help build a Gulch, but hey, at least let's plan to have a late 20th century standard of living.

    Minor edit: "live in and"
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  • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 5 months ago
    Self sufficiency might work for the young and healthy, but what about everyone else? The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, the doctor, lawyer, Indian chief? Some of the self sufficient may need to trade for services other than their immediate needs. You're going to get individual lots for tha 3 bedroom house. But there are those who prefer condos or apartments. As humans are infinitely variable, so are their needs and desires infinitely variable. That is the beauty and the curse of homo sapiens.
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  • Posted by  $  Stormi 3 years, 5 months ago
    Self-responsibility, not complete self-sufficiency. What we cannot do, or what is better done by others, should be on an equal value exchange, be it money or service. Cites are the answer for the Agenda 21 crowd, who tried to limit lot size in the name of environmental salvation in Portland. No land outside the city could get a building permit. If your lot was too large as deemed by the powers, you had to sell part off or not get permits for things like new water heaters until you did. The lawyers who supported the whole thing at first loved it, until it impacted them, then they went after it. Our 1 1/2 acre lot in Ohio, would have been required to contain multiple living units as well as a business if it had been in Portland. Lot size is a personal choice and responsibility.
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  • Posted by macnuth 3 years, 5 months ago
    A part of the implied Gulch creed is to do for yourself. So the idea of being self sufficient should be accepted in this society. But any one who has taken macro economics, you will realize that to better your standard of living you need to produce a product or service better then everyone else in the world. In so doing, you trade your product/services with someone else who is doing the same, thus both parties are able to lift each other up in standards of living because both as the best producers in their field are able to reduce the amount of time it takes to produce their product/service. It is prudent to have as many skills as you can in life, but you also need to have the ability to out perform everyone in the world at something to enjoy some free time.
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  • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 5 months ago
    Large enough to grow enough food to sustain the 'family unit' for each year with a bit left over to trade for items not grown or manufactured locally but not enough to incur punitive taxes. Which means property and income tax will have to go and be replaced with an end user consumption tax with one, count them, one only exemption. the Right To Life exemption.

    The first based on the idea that citizens should control government not the other way around.

    The second base don the idea that no government hasn't the right to take from the citizens that which they require simply to exist.
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 3 years, 5 months ago
    There is a difference between being self-reliant and being self-sufficient. The former embraces and recognizes the advantages of the division of labor and the latter does not.
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  • Posted by zzdragon 3 years, 5 months ago
    I'm for a community where there is free barter. After all we can't all build a water system or highway systems just for our self's. I can't build anything so all I have is my labor and it's worth just what I think it is and what someone is willing to go along with paying me. BUT once I preform the labor I have no other claim to the product. I didn't design it or sell it.
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  • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 3 years, 5 months ago
    Depends upon what you might do with the property, ie, growing food, fruit, manufacturing or hunting. I don't like close living so I'd prefer at least 4 acres but someone might be just as happy with 2.
    I also despise cities...they by nature make the cultural liberal and unproductive; they might be relegated to amusement, knowledge or entertainment only and not a place to live.
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