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Is Islamaphobia Irrational?

Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 3 months ago to Education
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Since a phobia is described as an irrational fear, Islamaphobia becomes an oxymoron.
Need proof? The following are some reasons for a rational fear of Islam and its Muslim followers. I use the word "some" because for the sake of brevity, I could have listed many more. Keep in mind that the following were all perpetrated by Muslims:
The shoe bomber
The Beltay shooters
The underwear bomber
The USS Cole bombers
The Madrid Train Bombers
The Bali Nightclub bombers
The London Subway bombers
The Moscow Theater Attackers
The Boston Marathon Bombers
Pan Am 93
The Iranian Embassy takeover
The Israeli Olympic Team massacre
The Kober Towers bombers
Embassy Attack in Benghazi
The Beirut Marine Barracks massacre
The 1st World Trade Center Bombing
The 2nd World Trade Center Attack on 911
Tha Achille Lauro Hijack
The Peshawary Schoolchildren massacre
If that doesn't prove that it is perfectly rational to fear Muslims, nothing will. However, that doesn't mean that one should run cowering when encountering a Muslim. Quite the opposite should be the case.


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    Posted by  $  jbrenner 3 years, 3 months ago
    I'm not cowering in fear, but I am more guarded than I would like to be. Out of my 200+ students each semester, probably 40 are Muslim. They pay their bills. Most of them show me respect. Some show more respect than others. There are a few, however, who cheat on my exams, and definitely more Muslims than those in the general population at my school. It is those who concern me. On the days I return exams after such cheating incidents, I get my best opportunity to express John Galt's values: "No one gets to this place by faking reality in any way whatsoever."
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    • 10
      Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      As the saying goes, "Caution is the better part of valor." I dislike painting any group with a broad brush, but it is said that only 10% of Muslims are radicalized. That's still around 200 million. A lot of friggin' radicals, a juicy portion of which are sure to be living down the street.
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      • 10
        Posted by  $  edweaver 3 years, 3 months ago
        The questions I have are, based on the teachings of the Koran that states, believers are to do anything necessary to blend with society until they are in a position of power and then they are to kill all infidels. How does anyone know if 10% is accurate? Can a believer of Islam be trusted to tell the truth about their position?

        I'm with JB, not cowering but not turning my back either.
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        • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
          "Can a believer of Islam be trusted to tell the truth about their position?"

          Can a believer of christianity or judaism be trusted to tell the truth?
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          • Posted by  $  edweaver 3 years, 3 months ago
            My answer to both questions is no. Can anyone be trusted to tell the truth? No

            Does the book that teaches Christianity or Judaism tell their students to blend with society until they are in a position of power and then they are to convert or kill all infidels?
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            • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
              The old testament comes close, but not quite there. However, in the case of any religious document, you are reading, depending on your outlook, allegories, fairy tales, or literal translations. In every case, the answer is still No. Truth is that which corresponds to reality. They are, by their very nature, untruthful.
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              • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
                Hi Herb7734. For Christians, Jesus Christ ended "the law" and all the bloody stuff in the OT. Actually, after JC even the Jews no longer sacrifice lambs and doves and goats and whatever.

                Now, as for the birth of Christendom and all the bloody crap done in "the name of Christ" is a topic of a whole new discussion.
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            • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
              Islam's Koran does not say that UNLESS you intentionally try to interpret that way with preconceived notions and taking portions out of context.
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              • Posted by  $  edweaver 3 years, 3 months ago
                I have made no interpretation. I stated the way I read it. If you have expertise and qualified information to the contrary, please provide it.
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                • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                  Be careful the bias of the authors that you read. Unless you read Arabic, you are reading and interpretation. Many of those interpretations have an anti-Islam slant.

                  Please read : "The Lies About Muhammad" , "Refuting Isis", an "Dymystifying Islam" for a start ... The primary difficulty with anti Islam speech is the bias built into the beliefs of the speaker (or writer).

                  The essence of Islam (per Muhammad) "You will not enter paradise until you believe and you will not believe until you love one another, shall I tell you of something which, if you do it, you will love one anither? spread Peace among yourselves."

                  Proslytyzing is not encouraged in Islam and, believe it or not, a difference between Islam and Christianity is the belief that man AND woman are both creations of God and are equals.
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                  • Posted by JohnConnor352 3 years, 3 months ago
                    Lets avoid discussions that are essentially the splitting of hairs between different mystical doctrines. At their core, both Christianity and Islam are irrational in their belief of a supernatural being and are collectivist in their ethical, moral, political, and other philosophical conclusions.
                    Objectivism, which at its core is egoist and individualist, is diametrically opposed to both (all) religions in purpose, origin, and the conclusions it draws about the world.

                    While Islam appears to currently pose the greatest physical threat to humanity of all modern religions, all mysticism poses a philosophical threat. All religions should be opposed not on their outcomes, but at their core and their flawed irrational basis.
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                    • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                      John : I would agree with religion vs Objectivism.

                      Islam poses ZERO threat to humanity .... radical Islamists who are terrorist do.

                      Its like Jewish people do not pose a threat to humanity but many radical Zionsist do and have.
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                      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                        Examples, please.
                        I know a few Zionists and their rhetoric is forceful, even radical. I have yet to see them move militarily except in self defense. Don't get me wrong, I have many contentious issues with Israel, but aggressiveness isn't one of them.
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                        • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                          read about the founding of Israel and the massacres perpetrated at Deir Yassin and many others by Zionists. (I am not anti-Israel).

                          Ilan Paape has written about the issue often. ( He is unliked by many Israelis)

                          http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm
                          http://www.ifamericansknew.org/histor...
                          https://electronicintifada.net/conten...
                          there is much additional information, you just have to search.
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                          • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                            Yes, and the many killings perpetrated by the Irgun. Desperate times. In some cases it was self defense. In some cases it was retribution. In some cases it was indefensible. That's war, but still, indefensible is indefensible. There are killings, that should not have happened in every conflict, since the beginning of wars. Not defending so much as looking at reality. However, you realize that is no justification for Muslim atrocities, such as sneaking into an Israeli home and stabbing the family to death including the children.
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                            • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                              Those are Palestinian atrocities that happen and the people may be Islamist in belief ... it is NOT the religion perpetrating the atrocity.

                              The "war" was not a declared one when the Irgun massacred and unsettled civilians. It was much like what Palestinians d today and bother are/were wrong an indefensible.

                              That sound familiar to the American Indian atrocities committed against the settlers in the USA west. Both are terrorist acts
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                  • Posted by  $  edweaver 3 years, 3 months ago
                    I get that without reading Arabic, one is reading a translation and agree that makes it possible for the translation to be slanted. That is going to be true for any thing that is translated from Arabic including the info that you suggest reading. I have seen info that refutes the translations that I have read but the material has not been presented to me by anyone with credentials to make it valid. The versions that I've read have been presented to me by more than one source with credentials. Is it possible that they are not telling the truth? Yes of course but at least they were able to speak Arabic and their story is believable. It is also backed up by the actions mentioned in this post as well as actions in the Middle East.

                    So tell me, do you speak and read Arabic? If so then I can place some credibility with you. But you will have to give me more reasons other than just what you state.
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      • Posted by  $  Suzanne43 3 years, 3 months ago
        Thanks, Herb for bringing this amount of radicalized Muslims out. People see the 10% and think, "Oh, we can deal with that." They forget that it's 10% of a couple of billion. In Brian Kilmead's book on the Tripoli pirates, the Muslims true beliefs come out...convert to Islam or be enslaved or die.
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    • Posted by wiggys 3 years, 3 months ago
      anything you say to muslims falls on deaf ears. they have their religious beliefs to live up too and that is it. they in total should be feared, no exceptions.
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      • Posted by  $  jbrenner 3 years, 3 months ago
        You would be surprised. While they have their religious beliefs, the vast majority of them will listen to reason. While not part of my job description, being an ambassador to Muslims has had its immediate and long-term rewards.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
          In my teens, I lived within 4 blocks of an all Muslim neighborhood. I was close to several families right through my twenties. They called me a cousin and I attended many meals and celebrations with them. Today, I would keep my distance.
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  • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
    Fear of Islam and of Muslims is rational, for a better reason even than the record of incidents you list.

    The Qur'an itself commands its readers to commit murder and wage war against non-Muslims and their governments, with a view to world conquest. And nothing is too perverse or disgusting for a Muslim to do to a non-Muslim.

    The Qur'an also says it is acceptable to lie to a non-Muslim. So how can you trust them to keep treaties, or to keep any bargain you make with them?
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    • Posted by  $  blarman 3 years, 3 months ago
      +100 if I could.

      Anyone who wants to understand Islam should get a copy of the Qu'ran translated into English and just read through it. If it doesn't sicken you... or bore you to death with all the repetition of "God is great. There is no God but Allah."
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      You have a deeper understanding of Islam than many do.
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      • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
        Well, you can thank Usama bin Laden for that. Him and the twenty modern hashshasheen he sent to fly those airplanes into those buldings. On that day I looked up the word F-I-G-H-T in three separate authoritative English translations of the Qur'an. And I found it. In spades, if you'll pardon the pun. "Fight and slay the infidels wheresoever ye find them!" Surah 9:5. And: "Fight those who will not forbid that which Allah commands you to forbid." Surah 9:29. Need I go on?
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 3 years, 3 months ago
    Looking at the San Bernadino example, where the couple gunned down their office associates who had recently given them a baby shower, I'd say erring on the side of caution is in order. People can surprise you in the most unpleasant way.

    Islam is unique in the pantheon of human religions, as it's the only one which ascribes to theocracy. There have been other religious organizations in the past that have attempted to wield secular power, like the "warrior Popes," but those weren't driven by scriptural pronouncement like Islam.

    Islam is also the only religion that encourages deception, if it protects or promotes the faith. That alone makes it difficult to establish trust. It also opens the door to the Muslim to lie as an act of convenience. Graft, bribery, and corrupt practices are an accepted way of life in Muslim society, because "everyone lies."

    I've had Muslim associates, and they generally acknowledge that there are difficulties in getting around cultural disconnects and gaining trust. Dr. Yudhi Jasser, a prominent American Muslim, has it right when he says Islam is overdue for a Reformation that moves the faith into a modern way of thinking and acting.
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  • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 3 months ago
    Islamophobia is a term coined most probably by individuals receiving financial benefit, accolades, or other incentive to perpetuate a false and misleading slogan. I am not sure where religious freedom morphed into apologetics and the claim that "there are no civilized or savage peoples, only different cultures". As if human beings are somehow not responsible for their actions when those actions are representative of their culture. In my view, enabling the false claim to exist and spread only emboldens the destroyers of civilization to continue their unholy wars and conquests.
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    • Posted by  $  allosaur 3 years, 3 months ago
      I consider Islamophobia to be a controlling PC term to be ignored.
      Politically incorrect old dino will profile someone who looks or talks like a potential Muslim.
      I'm always friendly and polite; but make no mistake, I'm watching every move made.
      I've had plenty of practice at such a thing as a retired corrections officer.
      I also pack a pocket pistol in what inmates call "the free world."
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    • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
      Islam is a special case. Its foundational documents command their readers to commit murder and treason, and to wage war against non-followers.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
        Only the religion of Communism comes close to Islam. But as bad as Communism is, it pales in comparison to Islam and Islamic sects.
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        • Posted by broskjold22 3 years, 3 months ago
          Herb, I get it. Dialectical materialism is religious in the sense of it's exclusionary focus. For me, the difference between communism and Islam is communism excluded a rational view of man and ethics (discarding consciousness as the product of so many neural impulses), while Islam discards a rational view of all of metaphysics (and therefore all existence).

          To explain, communist thought supposed man to be divided into two: capitalist and proletariat. The capitalist was attacked, in thought and action, on the grounds that his profit motive would be replaced by a system of communal ownership. The flaw, as we know, is that there is no restriction against arbitrary claims to ownership and no means of determining need beyond the relative misery of those competing for scarce resources. And, as Ayn Rand put it, "morality ends where a gun begins".

          Which brings us now to Islam, and the Islamic Sharia Law in particular. Those who follow Pamela Geller are well aware of the struggle against an atrocity known as the Ground Zero Mosque. She points out to well-meaning but perhaps naive Americans that such a proposal is not a gesture of good-will or even of remembrance. It is the manifestation of a supremacist culture. This behavior, if it can be called that, is ubiquitous across the globe and totally consistent with Islamic practice. The Dome of the Rock being perhaps the most glaring example. It should be an indication to anyone that Islam, at least in its current state and possibly since its inception, does not recognize the cultural achievements of any culture other than it's own, which would be laughable considering Islam itself is no more than waring sects fighting for dominance among its own adherents, except for the fact that this cultural psychosis has expanded into civilized cultures in an effort to legitimize itself. This is due to the bad metaphysics that Islam holds fundamental (no pun intended).

          Islam does not establish a connection to the role of consciousness (to perceive that which is), but rather seeks to re-write reality (and particularly history - though this is hardly a distinguishing characteristic among a long list of tyrannical cultures). But I will argue that Islam has no concept of consciousness. That is, it has no understanding that existence precedes it. Therefore, by its own admission, it seeks to convert or enslave all humanity in order to force it's own lack of understanding on others in order to legitimize itself. Yes, Islam is a second-hander in the deepest sense. Not like the communist who justifies his theft in a relativistic comparison to the lowest economic state. But a second-hander in terms of a war against consciousness, and thus also existence. Islam justifies murder by reference to it's hatred toward reality. If this sounds harsh, consider the root of the cultural conflict present in our times. It is, as Ayn Rand pointed out long ago, bad metaphysics.
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          • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
            Good analysis.
            If those who espouse socialism would read your post and substitute the word socialism for communism they might get a clearer understanding of the nonsense they want to rule their lives. If you listen to Sanders you might realize that either he doesn't understand what he's talking about or he's just a smooth liar.
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        • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
          The anti-religion of Communism, I think you mean. The worship of collective qua collective. This especially applied to the original Soviet Union. You have only to read the official English lyrics, or to translate the Russian ones: "We're going to sweep the mean-spirited aggressors from the road! We'll bring glory and laud to our Motherland! Victory of the deathless ideal of Communism!"
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          • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
            Nope. I'm pretty careful with my use of words. Communism became a substitute religion, or perhaps you'd call it a faux religion. Worship of the State whose hierarchy dwelt in the Kremlin and awarded the status of saints and prophets to the leaders. Their anti religion stance was to fend off competitors. At least, that's how I see it.
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            • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
              The Greek prefix anti- means "something that takes the place of something else." And in this case it seems the polar opposite. But the Communists needed an alternative worship system. Will Durant famously observed--repeatedly, in his signature work--that "religion attends the birth of civilization; philosophy attends its funeral."
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  • Posted by  $  sjatkins 3 years, 3 months ago
    If it is a phobia against an entire religion and against its approximately 1.7 billion adherents then yes it is irrational. It is irrational for the same reason that all forms of collectivism and collective guilt are irrational. It ignores individuals and individual responsibility and instead treats persons as members of some presumed homogeneous collective.

    All of the events together in the list in the OP were done by far less than a small fraction of a percent of the worldwide Muslim population. To damn an entire religion and all its adherents for the actions of a few is unjust and irrational.
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    • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
      +1

      Drawing these specific distinctions is important. A group defined by violent, anti-human evil, like the KKK or ISIS, is abhorred by any rational individual.

      Blanket condemnation of a group not Defined by similar characteristics is just lazy. The innocent get destroyed if justice is by a "margin of error".
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      sjatkins:
      Not true.
      Any way you count it, radicalization is pretty much agreed to be at least 10%. The latest count of Muslims puts them close to or even over 200 billion. And, as I pointed out, that could amount to around 200 million radicals. With 200 million radicalized Muslims all over the world, it isn't paranoid to think that there is one living in your neighborhood, particularly if you are in a good target area. Also, I am very careful to point out that it is that 10% group that is worrisome, not the entire Muslim population. That being said, it is perfectly rational to be suspicious anytime one encounters a Muslim.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 3 years, 3 months ago
    Ayn Rand's take:

    Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.

    Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.

    Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination.




    However let's keep in mind that Islam is not a race, but a religion... A conscious choice. On the other end of the spectrum we must also consider that most Arabs have no choice in religion, much like medieval Europeans did not. It's a tough issue, but we must find the balance between rejecting the religion without condemning a race simply because of correlation.
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    • Posted by  $  CBJ 3 years, 3 months ago
      I don't see any other mention of Arabs on this thread, let alone any condemnation of them as a race.
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 3 years, 3 months ago
        While this is true of this thread, I am just doing my best to keep the discussion on-track. Many of these I have been in before devolve into comments about towel-heads and such. What I have seen so far here has been kept generally to the religion itself, which is good, and I want to help encourage that track.

        But if we are discussing rational beliefs vs irrational... Christianity is just as irrational and mystical as Islam.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
        CBJ:
        You are right. And, for that I am thankful. While Islam is the predominant religion among Arabs, it is also adhered to by other ethnic groups. There are also Arabs who subscribe to different religions as well. It is a wonder to me that Homo Sapiens still clings to ancient philosophies which were born out of ignorance in order to explain what was unexplainable thousands of years ago.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
      On a world wide basis, most Moslems are not Arabs (Persians, Indonesians, Non-Arab Africans, etc.). However, Arab Moslems have been working overtime to kill off Arab non-Moslems and that continues to this day ala ISIS and the Arab Spring.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
        They've also are doing a good job of killing off other Muslims whose interpretation varies from theirs. The radicals are are mad-dog bloody excuses for scum who use the excuse of a religion to justify the satisfaction they get of performing atrocities, like crucifying and torturing children.
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  • Posted by jsrich 3 years, 3 months ago
    There are three kinds of Muslims"
    1. The fundamental - He wants to behead you today.
    2. The Moderate - He can wait till tomorrow to dispose of you.
    3. The Peaceful - He looks the other way while you are being beheaded and sees nothing wrong with you punishment.

    I will stop believing this when more "peaceful" Muslims stand up to the other two. I believe that the term radicalized Muslim applies to all Islam. After all, Islam teaches these abhorrent things.
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  • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
    This has been a most remarkable discussion. While it varied a bit, here and there, it mostly stayed on topic. It was elucidating, annoying, and diverting.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
    I have an "ophobia" regarding scorpions and rattlesnakes, too. I also know if I leave scorpions and rattlesnakes alone they won't sting or bite me, and even then I don't want them in house. IMHO, if we leave Moslems alone they will get around to stinging and biting us anyway, just because we're not one of them. Historically, the only time they stopped stinging and biting is when they got their noses bloodied and knocked on their butts whenever they got out of line.
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  • Posted by wmiranda 3 years, 3 months ago
    San Bernadino, Ft. Hood, Chattanooga, recent stabbings all over the world, Philadelphia cop shooting. The list is longer than any one person can remember. Then there are muslim/americans like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, former Navy commander, or former muslim Dr. Nabeel Qureshi that have been critical of Islam or Islamic terrorism at the risk of their own lives. Such courage is worthy of admiration.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 3 years, 3 months ago
    islam is a pseudo-religion that is anti-life, anti-civilization...follow the lead of President Thomas Jefferson when he formed the Marines and sent them to Tripoli to kill every muslim man, woman, and child to stop their piracy of our commercial shipping...it worked...they quit until Bush, Obama, and Hillary...time to re-send the message...
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  • Posted by term2 3 years, 3 months ago
    It says in their own "bible" that infidels should be killed. Thats a direct threat, and until that gets expunged from their "bible", I treat Muslims as the enemy unless they disavow that tenet. I do notice that hardly ever do Muslims say much about the muslim violence, hence I conclude that the ones who are quiet DO think infidels should be killed.
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  • Posted by  $  Susanne 3 years, 3 months ago
    DO YOU REMEMBER THE WORLD BEFORE YOU WERE INDOCTRINATED WITH THIS NEW WORD - "TERRORISM" - THAT IS MEANT TO COW YOU INTO SUBMISSION TO THE POWERFUL AND TO BEG THEM TO REMOVE YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS FOR "SECURITY" FROM THIS "TERRORISM" YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT TO COWER FROM??!!??!!???

    Can we generate fear, thereby fundamentally destroying the freedom from fear America once enjoyed, and inn so doing fundamentally change this nation to a cowering morass ready to subrogate their freedoms for a false shield, and our liberty to a dictatorial oligarchy that will generate more fears, er, protect us from fear while they enslave us as serfs to their evil plans and mannerism?

    I note two separate events - one was when we dropped the ball and allowed our country to become weak, allowing these fringe nutcases to take actions that are not only mentally psychotic but fundamentally evil, and the second was when we fed into these nutcases to find, much as Germany found in the 20's and 30's, a national scapegoat to foist these fears, this hatred, this loathing of the untermenschen upon.

    IF... you want to help the powers that be spread their lust for an American culture of cowering and fear, go on any website, or stand in a marketplace, and post (or shout) "Allau Akbahr". I guarantee you will join the ranks of the cowering fearful, thereby assisting the final plan of "hope and change". Or take it back, and make it not a thing to be feared, but understood. If you dare.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      One should be vigilant, but not fearful. Be prepared to defend oneself without paranoia. Keep in mind that the traditional defenders of your rights are no longer necessarily on your side.

      It is sad that the country through the wimps in Washington through concession, taking sides, and inaction, have caused the nation to be fearful. But that doesn't mean that people should be cowering in fear. However, there is no sense in acting under the pretense that we are the same country that it was in WW2.
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  • Posted by  $  Olduglycarl 3 years, 3 months ago
    It is our right as conscious human beings to make assessments about threats to our survival...it's nature and it's hard wired.

    I wouldn't call it a phobia because we do have "Reason" for concern. In the quran, there are 109 subversive versus that command a muslim to do harm to another. See: It IS about islam by Glenn Beck
    If a muslim does not swallow the whole thing, hook, line and sinker...then they are not muslim...the same goes for all the perversions of Christianity, Buddhism, gaiaism, new age satanism, progressivism, environmentalism or luciferarians.
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  • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
    A short list of NON-Islamic terrorism -

    Suicide attack on IRS building in Austin, Texas
    Knoxville Unitarian Universalist Church shooting
    Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre
    Tim McVeigh
    Columbine
    The Aurora theatre shooter
    Jim Jones
    Planned Parenthood bombing
    Realengo massacre
    Erfurt massacre
    Dunblane massacre
    La Loche shootings
    Umpqua Community College shooting
    Northern Illinois University - Steven Kazmierczak
    Virginia Tech
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      The difference: All of those listed were not perpetrated by persons of exactly the same religious belief, or for that matter, maybe the same anything. Which is why you can condemn the individual acts, but not a unifying motive behind them as with Islam.
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      • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
        False assumption ... you are assuming that because all the acts were perpetrated by RADICAL Terrorists that were Islamic ALL Islamic believer are terrorists and that Islam supports terrorism (which in reality it does NOT).

        Most of the ones listed were white male, does that mean all white males are terrorists?
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        • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
          Oh, give me a break with the syllogism crap. All the atrocities listed by me were perpetrated by radical Muslim extremists. Since there are approximately 200 million of them, and the word "Radical" is not tattooed on their foreheads, it is only common sense to be wary of Muslims. That doesn't mean aggressiveness, or bellicosity, or discourteousness, it merely means be careful. and be alert and be prepared.
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          • Posted by JohnConnor352 3 years, 3 months ago
            This is still, by definition, statistical discrimination, and you are drawing conclusions about the character of an individual based upon their genetic heritage. It is irrational. Now, once somebody has told you that they believe in Islam as a religion and way of life, then you can judge their character and the content if their mind based upon actual evidence, rather than associations with other share a genetic lineage.
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            • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
              Oh, gimme a break, John.
              All discrimination is not bad. I discriminate against murderers and rapists. Against anyone using coercion. Which, by the way describes radical Muslims.
              Since it is not clear who is or is not a radical I'll remain cautious. If I see a spider and I don't know whether it is venomous, I won't take chances trying to find out. Also, If I dwell in a place where there's lots of spiders, I'll be sure to carry an anti venom kit. Mine's by Drs. Smith & Weston.
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          • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
            The word terrorist is not tattooed on the heads either, nor is the word terrorist tattooed on the heads of the people who committed all the listed atrocities I showed.

            The next step is for you say most of the listed terrorist activity is by people who are Arabic, so we should categorize ALL Arabs as terrorists (even the Christian and Jewish ones)

            Your canned BS and ignorance helps recruit radical Islamists. read "The Islamist" and/or "Radical" by Maajid Nawaz and maybe it can help you understand. (Or, of course, you can keep believing the propaganda which only strengthens the radical cause.)
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            • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
              Are you adept in English?
              I specified the 10% or radical Muslims who use their religion as an excuse to perpetrate atrocity. Words have meanings sans innuendo.
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              • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                attitude, attitude Herb .... That 10% (a randomn figure not proven anywhere) are a radical terrorist element and not representative of the Islamic religion as a whole (which is what you attempted to do)
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            • Posted by johnpe1 3 years, 3 months ago
              your recruiting assumption is false -- turn it around,
              and note that their identifying us as devils doesn't
              cause us to recruit more devils for our cause.
              instead, their calling us devils recruits for them. -- j
              .
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              • Posted by  $  number6 3 years, 3 months ago
                Saying that all of Islam are terrorists or inferring that statements, allows for recruitment of radicals to become terrorists .

                THEY (Islam) do not identify us as devils, some radical terrorists who happen to be Islamic do. It is that element we should fight NOT insult the ENTIRE religion
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                • Posted by johnpe1 3 years, 3 months ago
                  I have never said nor intended to imply that all of Islam
                  consists of terrorists. . the terrorists who exist inside Islam
                  call us satan, and it doesn't cause us to recruit more like us
                  to attack them violently. -- j
                  .
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                  • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                    Gee, John,
                    I'm happy that I'm not the only racist in this thread.
                    Where do these people get this? By inference? Read the friggin words. They have meanings people. Don't read anything into the words that aren't there!
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                    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                      Herb remember the three groups in any discussion. The Righteous who are preaching to themselves, The Debaters out to score points no matter which side is right or wrong and those those that roll up their sleeves and accomplish something.

                      My favorite party of Objectivism is to find out 'is it real and is it useful.' The others are Plato followers or as I like to call them Playdoughists.

                      After the election crap is over they will disappear again for another three years having accomplished nothing
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                      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                        Thanks for pointing that out.
                        You mean we need to put up with this crap 'till November?
                        What frightens me, or perhaps saddens is a better word, is that fewer and fewer of the mainstay contributors that abounded when I first joined the Gulch seem to be contributing less and less or have disappeared altogether.
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                        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                          I am at the one year mark.. I think the heavy thinkers and contributers are sitting out the inevitable or like some of have already done already taken step s to be elsewhere after November and before January 20th.

                          You may or may not have noticed I was absent for three days. One of my twice weekly forced trips up to the USA where I assume my hide in the open act. Did my business and headed back south where it's safe.

                          I went to one shopping center for a few items and didn't make it past the third booth finally saying...I don't support left wing socialist fascism. That applies to all these butt-on holers. I think the pun was lost on the absence of intellect and sense of humor.
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                  • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                    Us or the Government. Two different things.,If it's a blanket condemnation leading to a blanket indictment then it includes current Muslims who are citizens on the one hand.

                    If it's only the government being called Satan it's pretty mild a compared to verbiage I would choose. As another example.

                    I often wonder what all the 'high spirited' conversation would be like if like definitions were used...leaving PC out of it obviously
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                    • Posted by johnpe1 3 years, 3 months ago
                      I have assumed that the satan commentary arises
                      from our predominant Christian population. . maybe
                      I am wrong. -- j
                      .
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                      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                        Satan is such a fun concept. Just a thought that a single creature can be the embodiment of all evil is such a great idea that authors throughout history have been using it for horror as well as comedy. It would be amusing to ask the Gulch which of the many Satans of the movies they like the best.
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                      • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                        the Satan term begins with the use of the word in Islamic language Shaitan and is used by the opposition as a term of religious, cultural and combative derision.

                        A similar term for our troops would be ragheads the current version of krauts, zips, slopes, etc. A step above NVA and VC to quote my war...a step below more derisive terms.

                        They both serve to dehumanize the other side and somehow empower the other side.

                        It's a psyops tool to be kind. But it works especially when used against the righteous true believer types.

                        That's the roots but the cultural aspects that engender the use of such sloganeering are far more pandemic in societies such as those in the middle east where thought control is far more advanced.

                        It still exists in Western Countries where it's taught at home and in schools as acceptable behavior.

                        But them in our country almost any form of immoral perversion is considered acceptable behavior.
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                        • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                          The translated meaning of Satan is "adversary." The fallen angel we call the devil is Lucifer, the illuminator or Morningstar. The fairy tales are so much more fun when they are disassociated from being a religion.
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                • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                  You have not heard the Head Imam of Iran Condemn the entire USA as the great Satan? I will be much less suspicious of Muslims when the so-called moderates speak out loudly condemning the radicals.
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                  • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                    I never said he was. I said that the moderates (if they exist) should speak out loud and clear against the radicals. I would feel more comfortable if I heard them on a regular basis. With a very few exceptions -- do you hear them? There is no anti radical movement among the Muslim population. Why? Are the 1.8 billion so intimidated by the 200 million that they fear to speak out? If that's true, then how, as their avowed enemy should we feel?
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                    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                      why not 240 million citizens of the US are intimidated by a few left wing socialist politicians and their billionaire backers.
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                      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                        But they don't commit atrocities.
                        Yet.
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                        • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                          I would not agree with that statement at all until Yet was added. Yet 'yet' was a long time ago. Two examples.

                          Waco - how many children burned to death by Jackboot Janet Von Flamethrower Reno's private Schutszstaffel?

                          Vietnam - How many US service personnel killed in Lyndon Butcher Johnson's War?

                          (suck an egg if you don't like the comment unless you have more time there in the infantry than i do.)
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                          • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                            Don't forget JFK and his condemning of the Diem brothers which helped escalate things, and likely caused the heroin epidemic.
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                            • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                              I thought he was dead before that happened. Wasn't it LBJ in charge when it got to that point?
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                              • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                                Before he died he started the snowball down the hill. Next came Good ol' boy, Grab-Your-Beagle-By-The-Ears Johnson.
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                                • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                                  Truman sent advisers first. JFK ordered them out of of Vietnam and was assassinated before that move was completed. LBJ rescinded the order, increased the number, manufactured the Tonkin Gulf incident and committed a full deployment of combat units.

                                  I fail to see how JFK , safely dead had any bearing. Other than having his orders rescinded by Lyndon B for Butcher Johnson.
                                  It was LBJ's snowball from start to finish.

                                  Of course don't let accuracy get in the way of urban myth. JFK had his own crosses to bear namely Bahia De Los Conchos. His legacy should stand on what he did do not what his successor did after this death.
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      • Posted by  $  sjatkins 3 years, 3 months ago
        Agreed. There is no more "exactly the same" among the varieties of persons that count themselves as Muslims as there is "exactly the same" among all the denominations and sects of Christians. Even where there is more or less doctrinal agreement there are huge variations in what an adherent believes is and is not a proper way to behave in the world at large.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 3 years, 3 months ago
    I have a phobia for all forms of mysticism. Once you depart from reason it is possible to install a tenet that endangers all that have not converted. Islam overtly encourages the elimination of infidels and while this is not practiced by 90%, neither do they have a reformation eliminating this teaching. I would like to believe that everyone is entitled to believe anything they want but I am weary of repeat offenders coming from the same sect.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      Thank you. There are so many who miss that simply stated point. I remember when I read many years ago, Rand's use of the Mystic and the Hun in order to clarify where the perpetration of evil comes from. Islam combines them both. A perfect evil machine.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 3 years, 3 months ago
    Moslems will never adopt western culture. They willnot integrate or be assimulated into our society. Their morale values are polar opposite. Even the Koran spews forth it venom against us. What are we going do tolerate them make separate Ghettos for Moslems only. They set up their own Sharia Courts there. They will have blody executions in the public squares in their subcultual habitats. Will they dig tunnels into the civilized American Cities and Towns to destroy our way of life. Obama wnats to turn the US into another middle east.
    Okay, here is my last devasting idea: if Islamist terrorist create civil strife in the US then Mecca, Medina and Temple Mount wipe from the face of the Earth.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      OOh, you are one nasty SOB. UI was with you until wiping out entire cities, including non combatant. A bit too grisly for me.
      As an aside, you might want to edit your posts to correct typos. They'll be more readable, and get more respect.
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    • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
      They would only say In'Shallah and continue. Locusts are locusts. The cultures are too dissimilar to that leaves two choices. Wipe out the infection at it's source or the entire infected body. Step One Step Two.

      And do it without destroying the American Dream anymore than it's already been destroyed by our own government.Step Three.
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  • Posted by jetgraphics 3 years, 3 months ago
    PHOBIA - A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous.

    ISLAMOPHOBIA - hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture.

    Islam demands jihad, eternal warfare until everyone in the world is converted, conquered or dead. Over 250 millions were killed in the 1400 years of “peaceful” Islam. Islam imposes a brutal legal system - shari’ah. It’s “perfect man” was a plagiarist, pedophile, kidnapper, rapist, murderer, and warlord, who is to be copied as the “ideal.” Blood thirsty jihad and peaceful spirituality are simultaneously embraced. No other religious ideology teaches the inferiority of women, the killing and hatred of all infidels, the execution of homosexuals, the silencing of free speech, forced amputations, the stoning of rape victims, genital mutilation, and the violent overthrow of all non-Islamic governments and civilizations.

    If you aren’t afraid of Islam or hate its evil nature, you are irrational, abnormal, or a candidate to be converted. Because Islam is a contradiction, expressing sublime morality on one hand (Mecca period) and bloodthirsty pillage, conquest, slavery, pedophilia and rape on the other (Medina period). All manner of evil and predation is condoned as long as the victim is Kafir (infidel), or it advances “pure” Islam, or mimics their Prophet, the “Perfect Ideal.”

    One can only conclude that Islam is not a religion, but is a predatory system. Islam is destructive to any civilization that is based on the Law of Love and that is opposed to the Law of the Jungle. The fact that Islam is entirely combative, contradictory and intolerant toward all non-Islamic societies makes it clear. Non-Muslims must come to grips of what Islam actually is, and close down all Mosques, Muslim schools and deport them all.

    Or “surrender.”
    There is no “peaceful co-existence” with endless jihad.

    = = = = =
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      Right you are.
      Islam is a religion in the form of a political system. Or it is a political system in the form of a religion. Either way, it is the successful melding of the mystic and the Hun. A truly fearful combination. To date, no movie monster compares with this dreadful creation that we have Mr. Mohammed to thank for.
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  • Posted by Esceptico 3 years, 3 months ago
    While it is true not all Muslims are terrorists, it seems to be true that all terrorists are Muslims. This brings us to the M&Ms dilemma: You have a bowl of 10,000 M&Ms and only one is poison, but it will kill you. How many will you eat?
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  • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
    I think you could fill a list of atrocities for many 'groups' that would be comparable.
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    • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
      Willing to illustrate?
      Since the 70s no religious group can compare to Islam. No political group can compare to Islam. When it comes to violence, torture and atrocities, you cannot name a more consistent enemy of the West and particularly an enemy of Israel and the USA.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 3 years, 3 months ago
        The Environmental Movement and Global Warming Advocates.

        The slow down and in places halt of 'development' in the 3rd world and developing nations has killed hundreds if not millions since the 70's. Many would argue that both are religions based on beliefs and faith and they certainly include radicals.
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        • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
          I agree completely. But while the Environwackos treat environmental issues like a religion, I think you will agree that it is not (as yet) a formal religion. They need a better Moses than Algore.
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      • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
        Looking at it from a worldwide perspective, there are a lot of violent groups out there.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

        I'm not minimizing the atrocities of radical Islamic groups. Just trying to bring some perspective to stats that fan the campfire. There were over 16,000 murders in the U.S. for 2013. If they were broken down by political party, religion, or otherwise, would there be any basis for a "phobia"?

        http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homic...
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        • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
          I am not trying to downplay other examples of violence in our and other societies. But Islam seems to have world-wide apologists. You'll not hear people defending murder, or rape, or assault, or kidnapping. But you do hear defenders of Islam for the very same things. Therefore, when someone is accused of being Islamaphobic, my stance is that he/she has a perfectly rational reason and it is not phobic at all.
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          • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
            I have seen demonstrations for decades of Muslims chanting death to America burning our flag and burning human effigies. By the way being caught with the wrong book in Saudi Arabia could mean a death sentence. a death sentence.
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          • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
            I hear you, Herb. I just question whether the significance of someone associating with Islam, or any religion, is greater than someone signalling irrational, dangerous behavior. That's the individual to watch.

            I detest group smear; it's typically inaccurate. If the concept is true for the whole group, then fine. The "broad brush" can destroy the innocent.

            C'mon, you know those Objectivists all look alike. :)
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            • Posted by Mitch 3 years, 3 months ago
              I disagree with you again… I feel a group has an obligation to curtail the radicals in their group or abolish them. The vast majority of Islam does nether…
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              • Posted by Zenphamy 3 years, 3 months ago
                The 'Founders' were radicals within their society.
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                • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
                  Zenphamy:
                  Excellent point.They espoused new and radical thinking, and based upon those ideas, built an experiment called The United States. Jefferson doubted that it would last more than 25 years. In a sense he was right, because it started getting altered in increments immediately after its founding. So, was the experiment a success? Inasmuch as it pointed out what could be, and should be the answer is yes. But as a lasting enterprise, unfortunately, no. It is like a plant that has been pruned down to a single bud. But it still has a few leaves growing.
                  Good gracious! I sound like Chance the Gardener (Chauncey Gardiner) in the movie, "Being There."
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                • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
                  Yes, Zen, and the leadership of that society wished to check those radicals by issue of open invitations to the Founders to be guests of honor at a grand necktie party.

                  Choose your radicals. The Founders were radically extricating themselves and fellow citizens from subjugation and tyranny, whereas the Islamic radicals are instilling subjugation and tyranny. Islamic political ideology is not compatible with a Democratic Constitutional Republic.
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                • Posted by Mitch 3 years, 3 months ago
                  Agreed... No arguments here... I didn't say radicals are bad just that if the group doesn't want to be judged by its radical members then that group needs to change them or abolish them. England attempted both change and abolishment, fortunately for us, we had irreconcilable differences and fought a war to exist on our own merits.
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            • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
              Which is why I modified my statement with the 10% statistic.
              Objectivist look-alikes? You're right. A bunch of nerds wearing black rimmed glasses who refuse to turn their slide rules in for calculators.
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        • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
          Pointing out the failings of group B does not excuse the failings of group A or "put it in perspective" as if to give it a pass for bad behavior. If you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar and you point out your sibling has done the same thing, it doesn't mean your hand is not in the jar. The topic here is Islamophobia presumably as brought about by radical Islam. What other groups have done is virtually irrelevant.
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          • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
            Mac, I thought the topic was the rationality of "Islamophobia", not whether radical Islamic terrorists have spawned "Islamophobia". My comments, in context, don't excuse any "bad behavior".

            It was my cookie jar.
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            • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
              Big whoop, Conscious. My second last sentence wasn't "pure" enough for you. So what. The gist of what I'm saying is the same. Very often on discussions where the topic is radical Islam there are those who immediately start interjecting "what about the Crusades", "what about the Inquisition", "what about the IRA", "what about Timothy McVeigh", etc, etc, etc in attempts to hijack the thread. It looked VERY much you were going there. You're telling us you are not, well, OK then.

              I thought this was Herb7734's cookie jar. :-)
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              • Posted by conscious1978 3 years, 3 months ago
                I'm not quibbling about purity, Mac. :-) You were tilting at windmills, and I happened to be in the way. Your expressed disagreement, in response to my comment, illustrates the problem with a "generalized lumping" of individuals into a poorly defined group.

                It would suck, if you incorrectly fell within someone else's "margin of error". ;-)
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                • Posted by mccannon01 3 years, 3 months ago
                  Concious1978, it looked like you were going down the path I described above, which has caused me to roll eyes in so many other Internet discussions. Perhaps I should have more carefully worded my statement like "... rationality of Islamophobia presumably...". You assured that you were not doing what it looked like. Good enough for me. clink Tips cold Guinness to you for St. Patty's Day!
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              • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
                Be objective. Get it right whatever it is. All words have meanings and objectively that does not or rarely if ever includes anything post PC or as it's also known pop illiteracy. Then you do both your selves and us a service...

                It removes any doubt on what is/was meant.
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        • Posted by  $  Dobrien 3 years, 3 months ago
          Who did commit those 16000 Murders in the US?
          Gang bangers , men dumped by girl friend or wife,
          Psychopaths , assassins , abusers and others. What was their economic source job or handout?
          Certainly not reasoning beings!
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          • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
            Not to repetitive, but unlike Islam, there was no unifying formal philosophy behind those acts. The key to this conversation is the fact that Islamaphobia Is Not A Phobia inasmuch as it isn't irrational.
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            • Posted by  $  MichaelAarethun 3 years, 3 months ago
              A phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation the affected person will go to great lengths to avoid, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed.

              Irrationality is cognition, thinking, talking or acting without inclusion of rationality. It is more specifically described as an action or opinion given through inadequate use of reason, emotional distress, or cognitive deficiency.

              Irrational Fear . In clinical psychology, a phobia is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.

              Fear of contracting Clintonititis, Trumpetism, or Berniesia is not irrational and there fore not a phobia.
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              • Posted by  $  BeenThere 3 years, 3 months ago
                Excellent

                "........ typically disproportional to the actual danger posed."

                Radical Islam is a "clear and present danger", thus recognition of that danger is not a phobia, but a rational assessment of reality (of those who worship death).
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    • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
      Here's the difference, to cite the example of the Hebrew Bible. That work gives the history of the Jewish people, warts and all. But the Qur'an, in giving the history of Muhammad, tries to pretend his warts aren't warts--and that his solid enteric waste doesn't stink. With the result that even child marriage and rape of prisoners of war become acceptable behavior.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 3 months ago
        Being a Jew, I hate to disagree with you, however, many of the biblical leaders of the old bible were de-warted to a large extent. Sort of like those pictures of Jesus, showing him as a sandy haired, blue-eyed Nordic type. But I understand why you are comparing Moe to regular humans. In Islamist terms he was a manifestation of God much like Christianity's portrayal of Jesus.
        By the way, can anyone tell me where the bible writers got the name Jesus? The closest I can get is that it may be Greek. There certainly was never an Ashkenazi Jew with a name like that. Possibly Joshua (Yoshua) or Jacob (Yakov) but no one was ever called Jesus.
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        • Posted by  $  Temlakos 3 years, 3 months ago
          "Jesus" is the Greek name. In Aramaic I imagine He called Himself "Yeshua."

          The warts? I was thinking of King David, and maybe Moses in some of his bad moods. You see, the Tanakh doesn't mean to say that any of its heroes and leaders set a good example all the time. One must discern the good examples from the bad examples in the behavior of any figure in the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings.

          But the Qur'an holds up Muhammad as the perfect exemplar in everything he did. And considering some of the more atrocious things he did...!
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