Today's Judge Narragansett moment? Hobby Lobby at Supreme Court?

Posted by $ jbrenner 11 years, 11 months ago to News
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I know that today was supposed to be the day of the Hobby Lobby case before the Supreme Court. This is an important case for Gulch citizens regardless of their views on Christianity because

1) the religious freedom rights in the Constitution include those to practice no religion at all;

2) it shows just how far government will go in its persecution of citizens (i.e. Gulchers are likely next. This is no different than what happened to Rearden.);

3) the government and particularly the Supreme Court might be "forced" to confront its contradictions regarding nObamaCare;

4) a loss in this case could be easily compared to AS's Anti-Life chapter; and

5) this is one of the more important structural pillars in the Constitution.

A loss in this case is likely to undermine any moral authority that the looters have left to enforce any law. The distinction between right and wrong may get so blurred that normally good people will have no reason anymore to trust in the rule of law. This could be a major acceleration of the destruction of the US. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

What news have you heard?
What opinions do you have?
I saw some threads from before I arrived in the Gulch from LetsShrug and Khalling.


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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are correct - it is not birth control per se, it is 4 specific types of birth control that are abortive in their nature.

    I believe that is the wrong argument overall. The argument should have been that government cannot dictate religious belief, regardless of what that belief is. Thus, this mandate has the potential of violating existing and future religious belief and therefore is prima facie unconstitutional.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You clearly have not studied much about the SCOTUS. It has often based decisions on political winds. Have you ever heard of Plessy v Ferguson, how about Dred Scott v Sandford, or how about Roe v Wade? All of these were as much or more political decisions as legal ones.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    1. Don't believe everything in Wikipedia - there are many out there who are actively slanting info so as to support their political agenda.
    2. The CU decision codified non-union entities with the same rights that unions have had for decades. Unions have supported socialists and now that anti-socialists have similar rights, they feel threatened.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have to respectfully disagree. AR at several times espoused the idea that belief in "mysticism" as which she characterized any religious theology, was irrational. As such, it was incompatible with Objectivism, which has it's foundation in rationality.

    That's not to say that I believe that Objectivism is incompatible with religious belief, but AR certainly espoused that thought.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Fred: You are correct, but the administration will say that employers are not required to provide healthcare "insurance." They can opt out (which is what the admin would prefer) and merely pay a fine.

    In general, what we term "healthcare insurance" long ago stopped being insurance for most of us. It turned into pre-paid healthcare, generally at a low and fixed cost for the receiver. This encouraged over use by the covered individual. The explosion of lawsuits over just about anything encouraged defensive medical practices which resulted in more tests and procedures than needed. Couple that with onerous processes for medicine and medical product certifications/approvals and the entire system has been "engineered" to drive up costs.

    The only way to reduce the costs is to unwind government interference, allow competition, and initiate "loser pays" to tortious lawsuits. IMHO.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Let 's separate out two things. First Rand and Objectivism celebrates Man. Second, by faith do you mean confidence in? Humans have done great things in the world throughout time. Having confidence that humans ill continue to do wonderful things is rational. Faith is the opposite of reason.
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  • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 10 months ago
    The problem with a company provided health care plan is simply that no company should be forced to provide such plans. Businesses were not created for that purpose. Their purpose was to design and manufacture a product or provide a service. If in the process of doing so they need to employ people then that's great.

    However, the requirement to also provide anything other than honest pay for an honest days work is in my opinion unconstitutional, but also immoral on the part of our government.

    Insurance pools can be created in a free market manner that would benefit every worker that desires to join such a group and pay for it with pretax dollars just like companies do now. If this were done in such a manner, then each employee could choose his insurance company and what coverage they desired.

    These legal requirements were instituted by corrupt politicians in order to gain control over the private business structures for the sole purpose of being able to extract political contributions at the least and outright bribes at the worst.

    Solutions for these types of problems are simple if we returned to true free market principles. Ask any honest economist.

    Fred Speckmann
    commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are many Christians here in this forum, and if you have read my threads, very few people are more educated on Christianity than I am. At one point in my life I considered becoming a Catholic priest. I will respectfully disagree with you on the "One cannot have any faith whatsoever if one is a strict objectivist." It is the subject of my one and only significant disagreement with Ayn Rand. What my beliefs or lack thereof now, I will be happy to discuss with anyone in private messages.
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  • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Re: Eyecu2,
    Posted by airfredd22 0 minutes ago
    Re: Boborobdos,
    There are many misunderstandings of the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Below is a partial clarification of that ruling as published in Wikipedia that can be found at the following link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Un......

    In short, Supreme Court ruling of Citizen United The Court, however, upheld requirements for public disclosure by sponsors of advertisements (BCRA §201 and §311). The case did not involve the federal ban on direct contributions from corporations or unions to candidate campaigns or political parties, which remain illegal in races for federal office.[5]

    This ruling was frequently interpreted as permitting corporations and unions to donate to political campaigns,[23] or else removing limits on how much a donor can contribute to a campaign.[24] However, these claims are incorrect, as the ruling did not affect the 1907 Tillman Act's ban on corporate campaign donations (as the Court noted explicitly in its decision[25]), nor the prohibition on foreign corporate donations to American campaigns,[

    Fred Speckmann
    commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com

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  • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Re: Boborobdos,
    There are many misunderstandings of the Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Below is a partial clarification of that ruling as published in Wikipedia that can be found at the following link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Un...

    In short, Supreme Court ruling of Citizen United The Court, however, upheld requirements for public disclosure by sponsors of advertisements (BCRA §201 and §311). The case did not involve the federal ban on direct contributions from corporations or unions to candidate campaigns or political parties, which remain illegal in races for federal office.[5]

    This ruling was frequently interpreted as permitting corporations and unions to donate to political campaigns,[23] or else removing limits on how much a donor can contribute to a campaign.[24] However, these claims are incorrect, as the ruling did not affect the 1907 Tillman Act's ban on corporate campaign donations (as the Court noted explicitly in its decision[25]), nor the prohibition on foreign corporate donations to American campaigns,[

    Fred Speckmann
    commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
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  • Posted by airfredd22 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Re: jbrenner,

    Your statement, "One cannot have any faith whatsoever if one is a strict objectivist.," is the most absurd I've ever read.

    I am an admirer of Ayn Rand, her books and her philosophy. I am also an objectivist who has great faith in Christianity. They are not mutually exclusive. I realize that opinion is anecdotal and not empirical, but I suspect that there are many Christians that are also objectivist.

    Ayn Rand never belittled Christianity or people of faith or any other faith. she stated that she did not believe but respected people that did. Respect is the word that needs to be included in any debate on these subjects.

    Fred Speckmann
    commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
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  • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course, the issue at hand with Citizen's United was not whether or not corporation's had legal standing to sue for a violation of right, but rather whether or not Congress had the authority to put a "chill" on speech. It is a cynical view indeed to suggest that the SCOTUS makes determinations based upon bones it will throw to political factions. Certainly when they are threatened as they were with Roosevelt's court stacking threat, they toss bones, but the high court is not under any threat at this moment, and the laughable attempts by the left to get a Constitutional Amendment to "overturn Citizen's United" is no where near a threat to the SCOTUS. Kagen, who was the solicitor general of the FEC at the time of Citizen's United now sits on the bench and that makes a different Court than the one that decided Citizen's United, and it seems fairly clear Kagen is not in favor of Hobby Lobby, but this is different than the Supreme Court rendering a decision solely for the purpose of throwing a political group a bone.
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  • Posted by Eudaimonia 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    SCOTUS finding against Hobby Lobby would be their symbolic walk back from Citizen's United because they would be affirming the Radical Left's assertion that corporations have no inherent rights - religious or otherwise.
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  • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm not clear why you believe SCOTUS "commitment" to Citizen's United translates into a denial of the right to exercise religious beliefs. Citizen's United, after all, was a profound affirmation of the First Amendment enumeration of the right to speech. The express language of the First Amendment, in regards to Citizen's United at least, begins "Congress shall make no laws..." and this was key in the majority's holding that the Fiance Reform Act was unconstitutional. The SCOTUS repeatedly asserted that act was a "chill" on speech, and arguably compelling religious people traditionally opposed to birth control to provide it to their employees is a "chill" on the right to exercise religious beliefs.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What I meant by a Judge Narragansett moment was the time when he went Galt. Sorry for the confusion. I totally agree with you.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I hate to disappoint you, but Obama compromised on nothing. He and his Democrat cronies and his insurance buddies (particularly "Progressive Insurance", GOVERNMENT Employees Insurance Company (GEICO), United Healthcare) passed this without a single Republican vote. For once, the Republicans didn't cave on this one - the wusses that they are.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 11 months ago
    I have no trust in our government either. I do, however, have respect for the rule of law IF it is the rule of law AND not the rules of lawyers, rulings of judges, and executive fiat by looters and bureaucrats (with pardon for the redundancy).
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  • Posted by starguy 11 years, 10 months ago
    Judge Narragansett?

    Judge N had something called "integrity", a quality sorely lacking with THIS Supreme Court.
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  • Posted by amagi 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's what O is aiming at. I have lived in 2
    countries with national healthcare. NO THANKS.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Except when one had a preexisting condition that made insurance too expensive. At that point the employee is a slave to the company because of health care.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Really... But what if a Chinese company with a major position in an American company wants to put money out to buy an election? Do you really want the Chinese buying votes in our elections?
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    BTW, one of the advantages of single payer is that when it comes to lawsuits the victim doesn't have to be "awarded" future medical expenses. They will already be covered so lawsuits will only have to pay out for the damage and suffering to the individual that can be proven. Care is no longer a factor.
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