Robert Heinlein, et al.
We can and will add others whom we acknowledge or even admire, but I am willing to bet that of all the science fiction writers, Heinlein is held in the highest regard here.
"I would say that my position is not too far from that of Ayn Rand's; that I would like to see government reduced to no more than internal police and courts, external armed forces — with the other matters handled otherwise. I'm sick of the way the government sticks its nose into everything, now.
The Robert Heinlein Interview (1973)" -- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_...
(But even this one resource provides a rich array to choose from.)
Every law that was ever written opened up a new way to graft. -- Red Planet (1949)
"I would say that my position is not too far from that of Ayn Rand's; that I would like to see government reduced to no more than internal police and courts, external armed forces — with the other matters handled otherwise. I'm sick of the way the government sticks its nose into everything, now.
The Robert Heinlein Interview (1973)" -- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_...
(But even this one resource provides a rich array to choose from.)
Every law that was ever written opened up a new way to graft. -- Red Planet (1949)
Heinlein's The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress should be required reading for every teenager, along with The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.
He taught me to be a professional writer. I took his advice: I seldom re-work an article; I just keep sending it out until it sells.
I just judged our regional science fair. Yes, some schools excelled. Mostly, no local school system out-shown any others. While charter schools also have problems - including embezzlement and fraud - overall, charters and home schools are just as competitive as the best of all possible public schools. And apart from all of them are the private schools. Again, not all 100%, but overall, private schools are at the level of the best of all possible public schools.
Rather than fixing local public schools - though that would be fine - the winning strategy is to shunt the flow into more productive channels.
Jan
I know you jlc from a couple of years here, so I do not mean you when I point out that too many so-called "advocates of freedom" are just totalitarians of a different stripe. They do not want to let other people believe the "wrong" things. Why not?
I have met several self-identified progressives and communists who have individualist personalities. On the other hand, many of my Republican comrades are conformists. Are you surprised?
Some of my best friends are communists here
https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
I observe a wide assortment in my acquaintances: one of my sisters is a liberal; the other is a socialist. A young man who was a runner-up in the AS essay contest when he was in HS is now a flaming liberal. Overall, most of the incredibly intelligent (measured genius) and imaginative people who I consider friends are liberals.
I do not know why.
I have observed that the people who tend to most strongly label themselves as Objectivists seem to be protectively exclusive of true believer status. They would not want me in their Gulch. Most of the people here with whom I am on best terms seem to have 'something Objectivistly wrong'. (They are religious; they are 90%-ers.)
From what I observe of the world, most people are genuinely not Objectivists, and would not be even if our ideas got 'equal time' in media and education. I think that we will not succeed if we fail to take this into account.
Jan
Heinlein wrote good science fiction but it wasn't anything like Atlas Shrugged or Ayn Rand's other novels. Ayn Rand's primary purpose in writing Atlas Shrugged was to project her image of the ideal man. It is a philosophical, not a political, novel, despite many aspects of the plot. She fully developed her philosophy in order to be able to correctly portray the ideal man.
Libertarianism is political only and is a-philosophical. Ayn Rand said that libertarians claiming affinity with her writings were half plagiarizing it and half contradicting it.
Different writers have different goals. Portraying the ideal man is not the only reason to write. And for that matter, Isaac Asimov's perfectly altruistic robots are an example of his ideal person.
And no one said that Rand was an anarcho-capitalist.
Almost any fiction projects some sense of life and at least an implicit philosophy. Heinleins's was not anything like Ayn Rand's and is no philosophical basis for a free society. A lot of people, including fans of Ayn Rand, read it in almost hungry desperation for good fiction portraying steadfast support of political freedom.
Do you know Tunnel in the Sky? The kids are sent on a weekend survival test that is intended to be little more than a camp-out. But the transporter fails and they are stuck for like six months. They don't all make it. The hero and the girl do because they are reality-based, rational, and loyal to each other. They use their intelligence to solve novel and life-threatening problems.
Double Star was perhaps a retelling of The Prisoner of Zenda but with much more supporting it. I understood from that why Ronald Reagan's success - whatever our criticisms - came from his ability to act like the President of the United States which few before and none after him were able to do. It is all in the acting; and an actor does not need to "look like" someone to portray them convincingly. It was an integrated story.
Ever have a cat? Every winter, they go from door to door looking for that Door into Summer. We all do.
Jan
Writing about this makes me think that they are tied together with what Jan calls "competence porn". They are about competent people who use their skills and intellect to solve problems.
1. 'ware the Stobor
2. Do you keep a thrower or two on hand?
Also, requiring it as reading would not do much. Back in 1969, as I recall, in the days of the campus protests and Prague Spring, one of the black radical comedians got in a line on Ed Sullivan: "You want to get kids into church? Put tanks in front of them and order people to stay away."
It is better to let kids find these on their own.
You cannot program freedom. It must be discovered... by individuals.
David Friedman said it inspired his own ideas.. Apologies if that was unclear.
Starship Troopers and Dune have formed more of my opinion about government than any other books out there. Atlas Shrugged basically agreed with my conclusions after.
I think he will quickly progress once he realizes what NOT to say, rather than adding everything to say.
We only restrict it to soldiering there is no reason to do so...but then we are draft system...
Anyone who wants to volunteer for the military should not be disqualified for physical weakness or religious preferences. If someone has a religious/philosophical problem with respect to being in combat, then they can work in a hospital or shuffle papers in Admin. Disqualification for mental or moral grounds should still be acceptable/encouraged.
Jan
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
The state guards being unarmed is just bizarre. I would not want to be a part of a group that had me playing a role for which carrying arms were appropriate (eg dealing with civil unrest) but which forbade me from carrying them.
It would be interesting to see what would happen to the makeup of the military if the age and 4F rules were deleted and those people were allowed to volunteer.
Jan
Jan
It was...See how open objectivism works? (aimed at others...) BIG POINTS!
Edit...looks like it made it this time...
That being as it may, the duties of the state guard here certainly do not require that we carry weapons. Even in times of "civil unrest" our roles are to free up other people who do carry weapons (openly).
Thank you for the correction.
Jan
Jan, puzzled and interested
Jan
Me Mum was a Brit, her brother flew spits
but first a hurricane one or two.
Me Dad was a yank she became oneas well
and a warbride to add to the stew
He worked for the mighty bomber command
midst myriad fighers and odds and ends
and never flew....but his brother did
and shot down an eM262
now his brothers were navvy
and it half drove him crazy
when his son took up jumping
with more take offs than landings
which most any leg could do.
Try landing without those shiny wings
'tis enough to make the angels sing
But all was well as everyone knows.
Paratroops go home with the belles
and the whistles it takes to get them
And that my dear friends brings us back
from the end back to the very start.
Winning the hand and the heart
of young foreign young maidens is
the lot of the jumping commandos.
Only surpassed by the guy in the corner.
Eat your hearts out and cry legs
anyone can take off and fly
but it takes a real soldier
to land in a parachute.
That's as good as I'll write this night
So cheers to the War Brides we knew.
What kind of 'son'
I might have become
without those wings of silver
Now some would say
we needed a test
of mental ability
But some are green
with low esteem
and the green you see
is not a real beenee.
Cheers to your Mum !!!
and the gods of bad poetry
My father (and his) were Mustang Mavericks, then: started enlisted and worked up from there. But my father was fond of saying that while he appreciated the presence of his parachute, he never liked the idea of jumping out of 'a plane with two perfectly good wings'.
Thank you for clarifying the terms. And for the poetry.
Jan
The gist of it is as long as you didn't do any of the "31 Crash Landings", they couldn't kick you out for anything. You might not survive your job, but they gave everyone every chance to earn their citizenship.
For example, there's an older man enrolled in the Mobile Infantry training in the book, Starship Troopers. In the course of training, he is seriously injured. The man refuses to take an Injury / Good Conduct Discharge which would have prevented him from earning his citizenship. When he eventually healed enough, they made him the training camp cook so that he would eventually (we assume) complete his term and become a citizen.
https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
When I enlisted, I said, "I have had heart surgery." The Colonel replied,"We're all on meds here." As it was, I passed the physical with metrics for one-half to one-third my age... after three months of my own running and doing push-ups and sit-ups... Just to say, service is based on willingness to serve.
Ideally, if you are ready and willing then you must be able (by definition).
For those in the service a division of those too far along the career path and to close to retirement to who are not replaced just retired at the earliest opportunity. Regardless of rank 20 years and phased out. The remainder under go two to four weeks of infantry training including APRT (physical testing) and weapons qualification ANNUALLY rotating and the requirement is they pass APRT, weapons qualification etc. annually and weight control or be passed over for promotions, all schools, and not allowed to re-enlist or if commissioned are just released. What you end up with is a reverse of the seven to the rear 1 forward ratio of combat ready troops. What would they do?:
One is provide their own unit's security when in the field which affects some unit's nearer the 'front lines' A ban on the use of combat units to provide security or ash and trash details goes into effect.
Secondly a ready pool of trained and deployable replacements. Eachi non combat unit would be required to maintain a roster of the stay and go members. Infantry needs bodies the go members go... the stay members continue the mission. mission essential numbers would of course vary but half the administrative or cooks and drivers and clerks staff would be about right. Too include Pentagon units.If someone is in a school or on leave etc. they are replaced with another name. One day a clerk in the Pentagon next day a member of 1st squad 2nd platoon Company A, 1st Battalion, 1st infantry Regiment. En route. with A and B bag. This means immediate deployables have shot records, gas mask optical inserts, wills, already done all the time.
4th Division or 5th Corps or whatever needs security troops they provide there own from the same lists.
etc.
Nothing the Corps hasn't been doing successfully for two centuries.
given ten years or so the phase out /in is complete. How do you tell those deployable. The ones that are wear Berets the one's that aren't where overseas caps or baseball caps. The want to play 'elite' they get to do it for real.
A cut from the past higher numbers of 30% total strength would then have been acceptable, Divisions etc. manned and ready. And computer systems brought in to take up the slack when deployables went forward.
Annual training includes at least one week long field exercise.
Same for reserves including guard units.
Bingo 7 to 1 ratio tooth to tail available and 3 to one ratio combat units to rear echelon units.
Civilian employees counted as part of the rear echelon numbers.
Don't like it....hit the bricks. Part of being a volunteer force
That was a fast exercise in leadership decision making. Before refinements Any so called leader that couldn't have reached that or a simiilar plan in one minute or less should be part of the automatic 30% cuts.
Air Force and Navy same thing with Naval Infantry and Air Infantry personnel trained for base and port and shipboard protection and security. Easily done using Marines or US Army Special Forces intitially then Armiy or Marine drill instructors to bring them up to speed.
One more thing. USMC made a separate department. Under the above paragraph they wouldn't be needed as babysitters for the Navy anymore. As the Presidents own they would retain the Embassy and White House and Camp David function IF needed. No sense carrying a good thing too far...
It is interesting, though, that Heinlein graduated from Annapolis. Do you think that he held that view about officers despite or because of that?
Military academy? (Four years of bootcamp.)
ROTC (see above plus more like lots of gym class interrupting your studies)
OCS (finish college. goto boot camp. goto OCS. you experience both sides. You are given responsibilty for conceptual breadth of command. People are variables. A good commissioned officer knows to trust his Senior Enlisted Advisor.
I take your point. I just note that it is complicated. As for what Heinlein actually saw, his service was brief: 18 months. He got tuberculosis and was discharged. So, no telling what he saw, but 90-day Wonders were probably not tossed in until World War 2.
http://necessaryfacts.blogspot.com/20...
The religious restrictions were dropped fairly early, but many of the other restrictions remained up through the first quarter of the 19th century. And we all know how difficult it was to break the 'while male' rule.
Jan
Voting was limited to anyone who could pass those tests, i.e. Land owners, and taxpayers... The vast majority of voters turned out to be white males because Women and Blacks were hardly ever land owners or taxpayers (at that time), but it is a damned lie that any races were excluded on the mere basis of race.
It was only much later at the concept of "Universal Suffrage" where "everyone" was given the vote without any sort of gate (owning land, paying taxes) did they start to explicitly exclude Women and Blacks, often in liberal democrat states and districts.
Jan
But that law there pretty much says (assuming I'm reading it right) that all tax payers (including "freed-men") were allowed to vote.
For example this source: http://www.ushistory.org/us/23b.asp Discusses that Women and Blacks could get the right to vote (but it was rare due to standard practices in society, not legal standards), up until the point of the concept of "Universal Suffrage" where everyone is granted the right, and they started to specifically exclude groups of people.
Your knowledge of history is incomplete.
Come on, Jan, you can think deeper than that.
If I could take a wrench and screwdriver to history, I would settle "taxation without representation" by creating the British Commonwealth in 1770 with an imperial parliament uniting republics around the globe.
(And I would have ignored France and Napoleon entirely. It was not the worse thing to happen to Europe. There was no reason for the UK to attack France over their revolution.)
That was what put Thoreau in jail: he voted without paying his taxes because he was protesting the war against Mexico.
Later, in the 19th century, those landowners united with the socialists to restrict the rising business class. Those landowners still hold up their noses when they detect "new money."
Back then, merchants could deal in millions of dollars of inventory and not own any of it. The founders were not in favor of restricting the vote to landowners. They wanted the franchise extended to taxpayers.
Maybe so.
Maybe in some capitalist utopia, the lender would indeed have hundreds of votes for all the mortgages it holds.
But if so, I suggest that you need to think it through...
Tha landlord of a rental property is either an agent for the owner or himself the owner. No matter how it shakes out the owner is ultimately responsible for the taxes.
Maybe this isn't important, but I do not believe the owner is personally liable for property taxes. The gov't cannot sue him and take his assets. The gov't will pay the taxes by writing a bond secured by the property. If it land owner fails to pay on the bond, the bondholder can foreclose the right of redemption, and take the property. In this case I think the bondholder pays the other leins to get clean title. But the landowner's assets, apart from the property itself, are not at risk. Maybe someone more knowledgeable about RE can confirm this.
Both give you a legal firebreak in case it is needed, with the LLC usually being a more comprehensive one. Again though, different rules in different jurisdictions.
OK. Just so we are clear.
So help me God.
["... the rest of my natural life ..."]
the one book I'm missing has a section about equating cooking with chemistry does that ring any bells?
He wrote about so many things, a rare talent.
Exactly the reason Stan Lee retains control of his properties.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long
Or possibly
Time Enough for Love
I find SM Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time" series to be Heinleinian. (The Island of Nantucket ends up ~3000 years in the past. Cope with it.)
Back to Heinlein: Farnham's Freehold is probably my least favorite. I am quite fond of Tunnel in the Sky.
Jan
Have Space Suit; Will Travel is wonderful and would make a great movie.
Jan
https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
Spacesuit or gold?... spacesuit or gold?... hmmm....
Jan
Jan
Jan
This is not tricking people, MM, this is 'untricking' them. We have to break their conditioning, and we have to do it within our own rules of appropriate behavior.
Jan
People un-program themselves. I know a narrative: The students in a psychology class slouched and looked away until their professor touched the knot of his necktie. Then they sat up and paid attention. They conditioned him. Once they told him, the habit disappeared, further attacking and discrediting "conditioning."
Personally, I believe that it is much more personal. Some people discover the truth; others follow the crowd.
Tell you what: You find me one person here who was a conformist before they read Atlas Shrugged. Even the so-called "conservatives" traditionalist as they are stand out head and shoulder above the mainstream.
That said...Mike, how much of your preference for the first one do you think was due to how closely it followed the original story arc in the comic / graphic novels?
I was very pleased they kept it in line with the original works.
Listen to Kelley's closing parody versus the drier earlier arguments in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KejrB... An example of putting messages in the context of the listener. Much more effective than preaching.
I read Anthem and all the rest because they were outside of the school norm, even though, in particular, Anthem was handed to me by a buddy of mine as we passed between algebra classes. Call it an underground classic.
I like a some of the morals in L.E. Modisett's books making the diligence and hard work of the protagonist, typically against an oligarchy, the message.
all that the knoxville public library contained,
dozens of books -- Heinlein was the best. . hands down. -- j
.
I learned about "number systems" many years ago from a public library book that had a story about a group of earth space explorers who returned to find the earth's population gone and two possible culprit alien species. I do not remeber the Author's name or the Title. I have researche Science Fiction listngs and anthologies with no results. The detective work of the explorers regarding the number system of the 'Avian' species (Base 6), and the numbering system of the Saurian race led to which was the culprit.
I read this when I was in the 8th grade, and fully understood number base concepts from the book. It has helped me immensely in my life since. I believe our schools should provide this oncept to all students at grade school levels. (Mine was in 1955) I would love to learn the title and author.
Arrow executive producer Marc Guggenheim will adapt the book for the project, which will be titled Uprising..
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat...
I hope it is great.
Jan
(any principles being illustrated would be lost on most)
Good characters give a story so much more life and longevity.
By "Good" characters I mean well written and fleshed out enough they become believable and take on a life of their own in your imagination. Whether their actions are something you judge right or wrong is irrelevant to what makes a good character.
A character you despise is just as important to a well told story as a character you love. We just identify more personally with the ones we like.
It might even wind up bearing a passing resemblence to the novel in the end.
With all the fascination with super heroes in Marvel films, Lost Legacy would make a terrific film with traditional heroes and villains. Men of the MInd versus Looters.
Here is an interesting (and undoubtedly biased) article about the Heinlein-Hubbard relationship:
http://tonyortega.org/2014/11/08/the-...
For example:
The Star Beast
The Rolling Stones
Tunnel in the Sky
(Others too)
Jan
Jan, has enough hobbies for 2 people already
Jubal : Anne what color is the house on top of the hill?
Anne: It is white on this side.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was exceptional.
I would also nominate the following as good sci-fi writers...
Larry Niven
Jerry Pournelle (and the collaborations between them)
Michael Z Williamson
David Weber
But I take a different tack entirely with William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, Pat Cadigan, and the cyberpunk genre. The only problem with it, is that reality caught up with it.
That is always a danger when writing near future fiction. Reality can always overtake you sooner than you ever expected.
Jan
"We... we... we..." is the wrong message, no matter who "we" are. Kids will find what they find on their own. See the Ayn Rand Institute "Essay Contests". Many of the winners come from Catholic schools. They surely are not getting "our" message there, granted that yours may not be exactly the same as mine.
FREEDOM FOR ALL is communism in disguise. You are a crypto-fascist.
You and I might agree on specifics, but philosophically, you are just another controller.
One of his series that I really enjoyed was the Black Widowers short stories.
Jan
(My opinion, your mileage may vary)
Again, I also liked the Foundation Trilogy and with all of my classes in sociology, I certainly to accept social science as a predictive study. That said, though, it is the collectivist's dream that we can reduce humanity to a (very large) set of equations. Indeed, the compelling element in the Foundation Trilogy is the actions of the individuals such as Hober Mallow and Savlor Hardin, as well as the adventurous young woman Arkady Darrell. Unfortunately, it remains that their actions, while benefiting themselves and others perhaps, were completely irrelevant to the development of capital-H History.
His human characters were not altruists, they were believable humans with plenty of flaws.
It is possible he made his robots that way as a method to address the "Frankenstein Phobia" that is still with us to some extent today. Back when they were written, technology was just beginning the great developments enabled by transistors and semiconductors.
That type of technology was new and scared a lot of people. Lets be honest, it still does for a surprising number even now. His robot works were a pretty subtle way to ease that fear.
In that sense, us-in-the-future is in the same mode. Meeting a newly-thawed 21st century capitalist, Capt. Jean-Luc Picard cautions him that here in the future we care more about the improvement of self, than in the acquisition of things. On the other hand, later on, we met the Ferengi. Arch-capitalists, their greed can be comical. However, in one tet-a-tet, Quark tells Cmdr. Benjamin Sisko: You dislike us because we represent your own worst view of yourselves, but you what, planet Ferengaran never had world wars, genocides, or slavery.
You might say that the writers invented (and then improved) the Ferengi in order to make everyone less afraid of capitalists, but that would be a stretch.
Don't get me wrong, I was and am a Star Trek fan, but its fundamental disconnect from reality is obvious. And the longer Star Trek continued the more disconnected it became.
Sci-fi based on honest projection or scientific speculation is one thing, sci-fi based on vapors and fantasy is something else.
Start another thread about that though. Every time we go to Star Trek or Star Wars it becomes a monster thread on its own.
Also, was it not there that one of the discussions among the heroes was to pay all the legislators a million credits, but make them pay for everything they vote for out of their own pockets? That proposal was not engaged, but it was discussed, as I recall. So, too with "rational anarchy." The revolutionaries talked about a lot of things, but they did something that worked realistically.
Orwell was a better writer and novelist than Rand tho' there is an absence of over-riding philosophy and a general pessimism that create unease in the reader.
Orwell's political affiliation will shock many but once the reader is aware of this it makes the political and social narratives in his stories more poignant.
But the master was and is Heinlein