Redefining Economics: Intellectual Capitalism

Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 3 months ago to Economics
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Every science is defined by the questions it asks. According to a sampling of websites three of the major questions economics asks are:

1) What goods will be produced?

2) How will the goods be produced?

3) For whom are the goods produced?

These questions and answers are pretty boring and provide no great insight into the world.
SOURCE URL: http://hallingblog.com/2016/01/18/intellectual-capitalism-fundamentals-part-1/


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
    I'm very far from an expert on economics, but it appears to me that most economists don't understand economics because they have no concept of the meaning of freedom.
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    • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
      I've thought for a long time that economics has become too complicated by people (governments) trying to manipulate what should be left to run naturally. Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I understand this country was pretty good until after the civil war.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
        You're correct. In a free market things correct themselves without the government stepping in. Even with the best of intentions, every time the gov. tries to correct "inequities" the collateral damage winds up making things worse in the long run. Add to that, unscrupulous politicians do things ostensibly for beneficial reasons but in reality, in order to benefit themselves or their cohorts.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
        Many people consider the post civil war until the passage of the Anti-trust laws as one of the freest and most productive in the history of the world.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 3 months ago
          With the carpetbaggers looting all the wealth remaining in the south and the south as a conquered nation having no voice in congress?
          Great deal for the corporate welfare looters.
          We just have to kill 20 million socialist sympathizers in NY, DC, CA, and steal their property.
          With all the destruction we'd have full employment, too.
          (Attention NSA, that's sarcasm.)
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    • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      Yes in fact most reject the very basis of freedom - rational ethics, including natural rights. As a result, they do not use a proper definition of property rights and this includes most of the economists touted as "free market".

      They have substituted a utilitarian definition of property rights
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  • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
    The answers are not boring. Thomas Sowell quotes a British economist named Lionel Robbins, who gave the classic definition of economics: Economics is the study of the use of scarce resources which have alternative uses.

    Sowell goes on to explain:

    " What does "scarce" mean? It means that people want more than there is.
    ...

    "Not only scarcity but also "alternative uses" are at the heart of economics. If each resource had only one use, economics would be much simpler. But water can be used to produce ice or steam by itself or innumerable other mixtures and compounds in combination with other things. A virtually limitless number of products can also be produced from wood or from petroleum, iron ore, etc. How much of each resource should be allocated to each of its many uses? Every economy has to answer that question, and each one does, in one way or another, efficiently or inefficiently. Doing so efficiently is what economics is all about."

    There are only two basic choices in how an economy runs: free or by command. All other forms are “mixed.” The free market is not only philosophically superior because it respects individuals who trade with each other, it selects which good real people want, and produces those goods more efficiently than a command economy.

    For a complete explanation of the phenomena of the free market, I recommend Sowell’s book: “Basic Economics.”
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 3 months ago
      I was a student of Economics myself and have come to value Thomas Sowell for many reasons including economics.
      I ended up using that knowledge on the "efficiency" side because I didn't want to work for governments, Insurance companies or investment companies.

      I established "economies of movement" in areas not considered lines of assemblies.
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    • Posted by $ HeroWorship 8 years, 3 months ago
      Esceptico,

      That is a great book, which gets longer in each addition!

      In case you don't know, the author of this post is also the author of a breakthrough new book on economics called The Source Of Economic Growth. In TSEG, he offers a complementary and improved set of fundamental questions in economics. As a long time Sowellian, I found it insightful, compelling, and almost revolutionary.

      As a thought, if property rights are the basis of capitalism and its exponential wealth growth, how does property around ideas/innovation drive that? This book answers that question a significant order of magnitude.

      Make sure you purchase, read, and digest it. For someone who can rip off your last post, it will be 100x worth the cash/time/effort.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
      Even that definition understates the field. Economics is the study of human behavior and its motivation. Thus the title of Mises' great work.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
        Mises is a disaster. His praxeology is philosophical rationalism, which is not science. He attacks reason and rational ethics. This means he is attacking Locke, Rand, and the Foundation of the United States
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    • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      Sowell is a brilliant scio-economist, but he also does not ask the right questions. Economics got off to the wrong start and has never corrected. In fact most of economics is not science explicitly not based on science. For instance, Adam Smith was a great friend of David Hume. Hume attacked science and reason with his attack on induction, his attack on cause and effect, and his attack on rational ethics with his is-ought problem. Smith never questioned him on this.

      For other examples see http://hallingblog.com/2015/02/12/the...
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      • Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 3 months ago
        We cannot judge people of more than two centuries ago by the standards we hold today. Standards based upon vastly increased knowledge. The greatness of Adam Smith is not that he said the last word in economics, but that he said the first.

        Hume committed the Fallacy of the Stolen Concept frequently, as did most philosophers in history, including those today.

        Aristotle, the father of reason, has greatness not because he said the last word in logic, but because he said the first.

        My point is to stress thinking is a process, not a conclusion.

        Of course economics is not science in the sense of mathematics because it deals with how to use scarce resources in a world of virtually unlimited uses. The allocation, in my opinion, should be based upon what people want (free market) and not upon what they are told they can have (command market). However, it is a science when combined with the science of thought.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          Yes but he rejected reason, causation, science, Locke, and Natural Rights which is enough to condemn him, because that was all known while he was living.

          In addition, this was his definition of economics

          The philosopher Adam Smith (1776) defines the subject as "an inquiry into the nature and causes of the wealth of nations," in particular as: a branch of the science of a statesman or legislator [with the twofold objective of providing] a plentiful revenue or subsistence for the people ... [and] to supply the state or commonwealth with a revenue for the publick services.

          Notice that it is inherently collectivist in nature.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
        You are the first person that I have read who has uttered the truth that "most of economics is not science....."
        It can't be based upon how it is used and studied today. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I realize that if economics were a science, it wouldn't be economics.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          In my studies of the underlying philosophical principles of various schools of economics it was clear that most schools of economics and Adam Smith first rejected the philosophy of science. I believe this is why economics has made so little progress. It is also why they never ask the right questions that might lead to progress. IMHO most of economics has become an attempt to create a tool that would make traders (stock traders, commodity traders, real estate flippers, etc) rich or as a tool for politicians
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
            I think what is needed in order to clarify whatinell one is talking about would be to divide what is now referred to as economics into several categories distinct from one another. A name for when it is used as a tool, for example etc Perhaps that's one reason why economics is not taught in schools. No one understands what it is. But then, very few understand what freedom or truth is, which makes the study of economics downright impossible.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 3 months ago
        You can't solely base economics on science because it deals with how people evaluate value propositions, which are subjective in large degree. If one could derive economics solely based on science, there would be no stock market because there would be no speculation - no guesswork into what could happen. This is the part I found incredibly difficult to swallow in Asimov's Foundation series: the notion that some part of the human race had been able to deterministically predict the outcome of mankind.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          Wrong. People have certain defined characteristics and abilities.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 3 months ago
            Please tell me how economics can ever be a purely scientific endeavor.

            People learn new things all the time. They gain skills, lose skills, gain knowledge, and lose knowledge every second of every hour of every day. Those losses and gains affect individuals' values - even assuming they were rationally-based decisions in the first place (and we know that's an unreliable assertion). As values change, so do peoples' perceptions and evaluations of value, which then translates into differing behaviors in the market.

            In order to predict with any accuracy or specificity any economic activities, one would have to not only have an understanding of the history of every individual in a particular decision pool, but the history of any in the potential decision pool, AND they would have to account for the irrationality in human decision-making. Science deals only with the rational - the concrete. Thus, the very definition of the subject matter (dealing with personal choice) makes the study of economics to be a study of morals and values as much as the interchange of goods and money. Is there a scientific side to the matter? Absolutely. Can it be rendered solely as science? Not as long as humans are agents.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
              Medicine is about people, and biology is about people and living things - both are objective.

              Economics is about how we obtain the things we need to live. What we need to live (there is no difference between living and thriving) is objective. In fact that is what objectivist ethics is all about
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              • Posted by ewv 8 years, 3 months ago
                Science is the logical, systematic approach to a field of study. It's nature is determined by the subject matter, not arbitrary demands that it be like physics and not be about humans decreed to be not "concrete". Economics, psychology, ethics,
                epistemology, and much more are or should be sciences.
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                • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 3 months ago
                  That they can be approached scientifically, I agree. The problem is partially in the inherent complexity and sheer number of variables, but moreso in the fact that any time we are dealing with human behavior, we aren't dealing with fixed values for many of the variables!
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              • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 3 months ago
                Uh, try telling that to Glaxo-Smith-Kline. If the biology of every person was the same, we wouldn't have all these drugs with potential side effects. We would have those which worked, and those which didn't. Can we know the basic science of biology? Certainly. But that breaks down when we try to apply it to an individual without in-depth knowledge of that individual because of the sheer complexity and interplay of variables involved. And biology is substantially less susceptible to human choice than economics.

                Can we approach it scientifically? To a degree. But to argue that economics can ever be a purely scientific endeavor is to deny the uniqueness of human beings.

                "What we need to live (there is no difference between living and thriving) is objective..."

                From a purely physical aspect, I might agree. From a human aspect which includes desires, emotions, and intellectual needs, there is a huge difference from one person to the next. It is why some buy the red widget and some the blue. It is why some buy Saks Fifth Avenue and others Wal-Mart. It is why some are on this forum and others not.

                Attempts to put everyone in the same box as far as needs and wants is the same tack taken by progressives and it is empirically false. Would you put yourself in the same box as the looter? I think not.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 3 months ago
    Some better questions are as follows.

    1) What competition is out there currently?
    2) What new innovations do I anticipate? And from whom?
    3) What is the market demand as a function of price?
    4) How will such innovation affect the market demand vs. price curve?
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    • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      Perhaps I misunderstand what you are saying, but there is no question more important than what is the cause of real per capita increases in per capita income.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 3 months ago
        I was referring to the questions at the top of the thread, not what is inside the link. The cause of real per capita increases is the invention. That is the subject of your book. To us, that answer is obvious, but it certainly is not the answer that the rest of the world "feels" is the answer to your question.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
          The causes are honest, productive work of all kinds, and the willingness of owners to risk their capital, as well as innovation. To credit only inventors is an error as fundamental as Marx' "labor theory of value".
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          • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
            Marx was about physical labor. Do you understand logic?
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            • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
              Certainly.

              Marx's whole theory was based on the (rubbish) idea that when a product was created, the person doing the physical work was entitled to the entire proceeds -- that in other words it was only the physical work that counted; the inputs of creative thought, and of capital (in building the factory and/or machines that make the product) were dismissed as unimportant and didn't count for anything, because (paraphrased) the capital was merely the creation of earlier physical laborers, and inventing things wasn't really "work." (And the Soviet economy reflected these misconceptions -- they invented very little, and never bothered updating any of their factories or building new ones.)

              Your theory is similar except that you would have only the creative thought count, and dismiss the physical work and the capital investment, saying the capital was merely the creation of earlier inventors. (I don't think you explained why the physical work doesn't count.)

              I insist that all three inputs should count. And that's the way capitalism works in the real world -- all three input-providers get paid.

              And in my opinion, this comic explains how capital is created. http://freedom-school.com/money/how-a...
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 3 months ago
      What is entrepreneurship? is a debate that the Austrians have been having for most of a century. Your questions are all important to someone who intends to go into business. Invention precedes production and invention is often (not always; not even usually) independent of the market. Both Ludwig von Mises and Ayn Rand observed that.

      However, profit must be possible, or no motive for production exists. Note the difference between production and creation. Chester Carlson could have kept his invention to himself, making copies for himself alone. He chose.

      Moreover, entrepreneurship can be bringing existing goods to new markets, lowering inefficiencies, or lowering risks, or, of course, accepting risk and making a profit on it. None of those is invention in the primary sense.

      However, taking an existing object or process that is not being produced, not "commercialized" and bringing it into production - for profit - is, indeed, the only way that real per capita increases.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 3 months ago
        I used the word innovation instead of invention, because some innovations that are not inventions are gamechangers. For example, Henry Ford didn't invent the automobile, but his use of mass production methods changed the game.

        Von Mises and Rand's observation that invention is often independent of the market was a remarkable observation. Most people think that "necessity is the mother of invention". While usually true, there are some exceptions to that rule, as you, von Mises, and Rand noted.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
          What I get out of both von Mises and Adam Smith is that opportunities for profit are the mother of wealth. The American Revolution brought them simply by getting government out of the way. "Progressive" laws after the Civil War have reversed that, so we need a revolution (or equivalent change) again.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          Henry Ford had plenty of patents (innovation is a nonsense word meant to obscure reality) see https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&t...

          I would love a cite that Rand observed that inventions are often independent of the market. I have read almost very thing Rand wrote and watched almost all of her public appearances and never heard any such thing

          Regardless the economist B.. Zorina Khan and the economist Jacob Schoomkler overwhelming showed that most inventors invent in the largest market. Once again Mike M is ??????
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 3 months ago
    db; As we've discussed before, Economics is one study that is as far from a science as one could arrive at, as is most Social Studies. Trying to reduce human interaction to a set of 'natural laws' like we find for the 'hard' sciences, ignores what defines a human in the first place.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      I disagree that there can be no natural laws in economics. For instance, in a technologically stagnant world (society) there will be no economic per capita growth. Usually this will result in the slow decay of economic growth.
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    • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 3 months ago
      Z is correct that economics is far from science - but I add- at the moment.

      Science is an approach valid regardless of whether human players act logically (as judged by whom?)
      Irrespective of whether humans are logical or otherwise in groups or as individuals, the study of human behavior lends itself to the scientific method, or at least if understanding is to be enhanced. Therefore dbh's approach is correct. Economics should make use of the usual science methods of postulation, data, evidence, analysis, interpretation, there is a good quote of Richard Feynman about this.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
        Science is an approach valid regardless of whether human players act logically (as judged by whom?)
        Irrespective of whether humans are logical or otherwise in groups or as individuals, the study of human behavior lends itself to the scientific method, or at least if understanding is to be enhanced.


        Agreed. That is why utilitarian economics is correct. People don't have to make the choices you consider rational for it to work.
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  • Posted by dwlievert 8 years, 3 months ago
    The reason economics has become known as the dismal science, embodying "tenets" bearing little reference to contextual reality, is because it attempts to study its "science" without a focus on people - how and why they economically behave as they do.

    It produces tenets such as money without connection to value, consumption without acknowledging the precondition of production, and investment without regard to saving.
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  • Posted by fosterj717 8 years, 3 months ago
    I think a better set of questions might be geared to a business 101 level:

    1) How does the cost of capital influence the cost of goods?

    2) How does that cost of labor influence the cost of goods?

    3) How does the cost of raw materials influence the cost of goods

    4) How do taxes influence the cost of goods?

    5) How do you determine the amount of profit on goods to be sold?

    Answer: They are all added together with a profit margin (big business from 2 - 15%) and from there a cost of the product is determined.

    Last Question:

    What will finally determine whether or not this product is brought to market (this one I leave to you to answer)?
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    • -1
      Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
      Capital is not important to economic growth. Inventions are what create capital not the other way around.
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      • Posted by fosterj717 8 years, 3 months ago
        I beg to differ, in order to buy something (capital, raw materials, labor, etc.) you will not get it cost free even with interest rates as low as they are now. Most companies use capital that is borrowed hence there is the cost of interest. Being that you must pay labor and raw materials as well as other administrative costs, I don't see why you say capital is not important......Perhaps reading Hawkins "The new economy" might better frame this topic that I can.
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        • -1
          Posted by 8 years, 3 months ago
          Read the article.

          You cannot have capital before you invent, because without inventions you are by definition living in the Malthusian Trap, which means the edge of starvation, which means you have no surplus.
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          • Posted by Lucky 8 years, 3 months ago
            I agree (almost). Total capital, defined in economic or accounting terms, is not increased just by its use, that is a zero sum game. Eg the economic history of Soviet Russia which was good at harnessing capital.
            There can be merit sometimes in re-distribution, from some to others. But to increase total capital requires technology (invention, productivity, innovation maybe).
            Unfortunately, destroying capital is easy, it is a skill possessed by the political mind.
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