Without RADAR would we have lost the Battle of Britain?

Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 6 months ago to Technology
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If so, would the allies have lost WW2?


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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you are severely overestimating the strength of the USSR. Without Western Aid and Technology, at best they could have sued for peace at some point. For instance see this article http://www.historynet.com/did-russia-....

    I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. The Soviet tanks were built around western technology for instance.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    With reference to Victor Suvorov's "Ice Breaker" and other books and research, I would re-evaluate the perceived weakness of the Soviet Union. It took terrific losses in the beginning, mainly due to the same effect that the Israeli Air Force had on Egypt on day one of the Six Day War - Stalin was poised to attack Germany and Hitler beat him by less than a week. But Germany was never a match for the USSR - even with tremendous victories and much captured equipment and supplies, by December of 1941 the German army was spent. And they had captured less than 10% of the USSR! Certainly, without the Allies, the Soviet losses would have been another 10 or 20 million people, but that didn't matter to Stalin. The only conceivable way for Hitler to win on the Eastern Front would have been to come in as a liberator from communism and embrace and empower the local populations. That, of course, was inconceivable for Hitler.
    On the subject of shooting his generals in the Great Purge of 1937 and 1938, the evidence points to a rather logical cleansing of the useless political and incompetent appointees from the Civil War. The good general were mostly retained and promoted, while his practice of jailing some of them and then, directly out of jail, giving them command of entire Armies, seemed to generate unexplainable loyalties.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes that is what I read also. It was early radar and the navy commanders did not quite trust it.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You assume that the ships wouldn't shoot back and that they would all get sunk, just like the Prince of Wales did by the Japs. Also...Even at that stage the ASW efforts of the British were bearing fruit. You also have to remember that the Germans only started the war with 100 subs. My Mom and Dad were in England during the war, They actually got down to 6 days of food in the country at one time. If Hitler had started the war with 200 subs, he could have starved England. Think about the D-Day invasion and what was required for that to be successful. Crossing the English Channel is no joke. There is a reason that England has not been conquered since 1066...and the Battle of Hastings was a near run thing.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Without the support of the Allies the USSR was a paper tiger. Stalin was looking for an excuse to delay the war, partly because he shot all his generals, but also because he had no war machine.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Once the big ships were gone the rest would be easy prey to U-boats and the big ships that germany had. I don't think the facts support your position.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are making an assumption that Stalin would have been passively waiting for Hitler to conquer Britain and return to the Continent...
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course, in this case, it was the Japanese government (run by people) that was the source of evil, not the weapons or any other innanimate objects. And, as in all other cases, the source of evil are always certain people, who often leverage their evil through government and not innanimate objects, such as weapons.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A comparison between the sinking of the Yamato [which was traveling by itself in open ocean] by american aircraft having total air superiority and the chances that the Luftwaffe would have in protecting an invasion fleet from the entire royal navy...in an area at the shore of Great Britain..[IE; in range of fighter coverage] do not in any way compare. All the Royal navy would have to do is sail up and down the English channel near the Rhine Barges that were to be used for the invasion and the rough water from the wakes of the battleships would upset these barges.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    However, as I maintain, the British Navy ships would be highly engaged by the U-boat presence. The U-boats are quickly establishing bases and emanating from the coast of France, as well as tightening the advances from the North Sea. The Brit Navy attempting a home defense against invasion would be bottled up in the channel and preoccupied by significant maneuvering and devastating losses by both U-boats and air attack covering the invasion. And, as you say, exposed from above because of the limited anti-aircraft armament. Likely huge losses to the home fleet, both from below, and from the air precisely because of the lack of anti-aircraft armament. The two pronged advantage of the Germans would have been relentless. But, it would have ultimately stemmed from the loss of air superiority so essential to the Brit homeland defense. That is why Reginald Mitchell, who designed the Spitfire, and gave his energy tirelessly while dying of cancer to complete the designs, has been designated the "First of the Few". The design of the Spitfire was as essential to the defense of Britain as was the radar and the Ultra decryption efforts. So many cogs in the analysis.

    Had any of these factors been absent, it is likely that the air war would have been lost leaving the now German controlled air space to continue domination on the Brit mainland in support of the wide spreading occupation. The minute significant occupation began on the British mainland, German air support from local captured bases would just steam roller the effect.

    There is no doubt, it would have been epic, on par with Hastings, with much German machinery at the bottom of the channel, but huge losses by the British also on the bottom. And the loss of the homeland to German occupation by late 1940. No phony war. It is over. And Hitler has another 6 months to plan the invasion of Russia without the worry of two fronts and no distractions from the "soft underbelly". And the Nazi juggernaut continues.

    Ha! It feels like a WWII "What If?" game! But good lord! The contemplation of the turn of events should such pivotal events have gone otherwise is awesome and daunting!
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, in the Solomons, the radar didn't help. Not because it was bad or inadequate, but because the US commanders did not know how to use it and did not trust it. The result - the Battle of Savo Island - a whole bunch of cruisers destroyed due to bad leadership. The key to eventually winning in the Slot was perseverance, with a lot of tonnage committed and sunk on both sides, and Henderson airfield, which helped to destroy those Japanese ships that could be found close enough in daytime.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Japan had only one technological advancement over the US - the Long Lance torpedo. It was superior in its own right, and the US torpedoes in the beginning were defective. Other than that, all Japanese technologies were either on par or worse than US technologies. But in terms of resources, production capacity and personnel training, Japan couldn't even match 10% of US. Once the relatively small number of trained crews (ship and air) were destroyed, Japan had no ability to replace them. The Midway loss was much more crippling than simply four carriers - those carriers and their crews represented more than 50% of Japan's capability, with no practical means to replace it. With or without radar, it was simply a matter of time and tonnage of production.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The atomic bombs made the end obvious to a moron. But if they would have persisted, the Pacific islands where they still had forces would have been by-passed and those that would choose to continue the fight would have done that as hungry and deprived animals. With minimal food, no fuel and no ability to communicate between the islands of Japan proper, starvation and death of millions would have followed. That would have destroyed Japan for generations. For all the modern morons that point at the A-bombs as evil, the 100,000 or so that were killed by them saved millions of others from dying. The real evil was not the Bomb, but their government. A lesson for all of us.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that aircraft destroying the largest ships in the world would argue against your answer.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So...the Russians did make an impressive contribution to the downfall of The Rising Sun. The A-Bomb just put the finishing touches on the toppling of the regime. Although it was said that the Japanese could have prolonged the war considerably since they were so well dug-in and hard to get out of the various Pacific islands they still were rat-holed in.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And English archers using massed indirect fire and if not penetrating French armor panicked or killed their horses. Battle field tactics unhampered by political correctness which ruled even back then. The equivalent of Napoleons massed artillery. The USA then did the unthinkable and turned the artillery into cavalry moving them from place to place rapidly during the civil war. Somebody has paid attention and turned on the thinking switch. Yet by 1964 we were still learning as beginner infantry to advance on line firing one round when the left foot hit the ground and from the underarm assault position. never saw it used in real life by then the Viet Cong and NVA were emulating the US success in sniping from ambushes and dumb ass Lieutenants who insisted otherwise were collecting frag-ments along with a final purple heart. Ever the trade school REMFs reverting back to shield walls and playing Spartans at Thermoepyle. We learned or relearned three good lessons. Always hang pierced steel planking on the sides of trucks, Fixed positions are useful only when setting up a hasty ambush and the Dupuey Foxhole. A forth and a fourth. Bullets and water were more valuable than flak jackets and steel helmets. God Loves the Infantry but angels watch over recon.
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