Judgment

Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 4 months ago to Ask the Gulch
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The bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Ayn Rand says, "Judge and be prepared to be judged." But, where does judgement start and end. How about the guy in the neighborhood who refuses to keep up with the Joneses? He's the guy with the 10 year old clunker in his driveway. How about the woman who dresses like a girl half her age? We make judgments constantly and some we might even act upon. The question then arises as to what do we judge that warrants action and what doesn't?


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    Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 8 years, 4 months ago
    Driving an old clunker doesn't warrant judgement. A women dressing half her age also doesn't warrant judgement.

    What does warrant judgement, someone intentionally doing harm to another. Harm can come in many forms.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      In other words, "No coercion."
      The reason I posted this is that I find so many that I communicate with who cannot seem to differentiate between which judgments require action and which do not. In Objectivist-Land I expect the answer you gave, but to get more juice out of it, I'd like more examples, probably more subtle than my examples.
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      • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 4 months ago
        Example: You can use all the illegal drugs you want, as long as you don't use around me, especially if your using will reflect negatively on me. If I'm living in a community where use it illegal, then you MUST respect those rules if you want to visit me. If you think that you have "rights" that can overwhelm mine, then Houston, we have a problem.
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        • Posted by KCLiberty 8 years, 4 months ago
          I think you are still causing force and coercion. Prohibition against a substance or chemical is force, and as usual with such things, doesn't work and makes things worse. Why should your community having a law stop someone from ingesting a chemical. It is their body, which is their property and thus their individual liberty. As long as they do not cause harm to you, you have no right to stop them. It is not about their rights "overwhelming" yours, it is about you respecting another person's rights and liberty.

          Pot is far less harmless than alcohol both in terms of individual health and public danger, yet this plant that exists in nature is banned while distilling and brewing isn't.

          My "rights" end at my property, whether that is my physical body or my house, etc... I have no care if someone does drugs in my neighborhood. But, you break into my garage to steal tools to sell to support your habit and I'll shoot you in the face.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 4 months ago
    FYI: There's a difference between judgement and judgment. The latter is a legal claim for debts unpaid.
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 3 months ago
      Sorry, no. The legal claim meaning is just one of several definitions of "judgment". The primary definitions are:
      1. an act or instance of judging.
      2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.

      In America, "judgment" is the only acceptable spelling. Many people make the mistake of adding the e, which is also found in British usage. Eventually "judgement" will make its way into an acceptable alternative, along with acknowledgment/acknowledgement and other confusions in the English/American language. If enough people get it wrong, that makes it right.
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  • Posted by illucio 8 years, 4 months ago
    To Judge is an action, for it causes not only an attitude towards something but omissions as well. To Act directly, meaning to file a law suit or to approach and suggest a conversation (two extremes), aren´t necesarilly the only way to go about things. Not acting is, ultimately; an action in itself as well.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
    to get serious as some have no sense of humor...

    The two ways are judging. Before facts in evidence are presented and after facts in evidence are presented.m(or acquired and verified.) Pre Judice commonly known as prejudice, and Post Judice.

    Our legal system based at least at one time on morals, values and ethics, Does probable cause exist? Is there reasonable doubt?

    The procedure applies anywhere and to everything. Should be easy.

    Back to the courts as a metaphor. Heidi Fleiss is charged with pandering and with tax evasion. the evidence supports the charges. However the along the way I added some thing to my moral code and ethical standards that wasn't apparent to anyone else.

    Pandering? To whom? One of the co-conspirators was present in court a self confessed active participant. But was not charged. Conclusion the proposed action was not equal it didn't not apply in all similar circumstances it was therefore not useful. Not Guilty!

    As for income tax I wouldn't vote guilty no matter who was being charged. I voted the system of income tax guilty instead. Not Guilty.

    I was not on those juries. But it's an example of warranted action or inaction. Does it meet your moral and ethical standards. Each case is different.

    In a court we're given a way to vote for or against the merits of the law itself. With out the draft in effect we're given a way to support or not support some government and of course the nation. Enlist or walk away. In the court that will be held less than a year from now we have the same duty...to our own moral and ethical standards. We are judging ourselves first and the candidates second. So far...None of the Above meets my standards. How low are yours?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 4 months ago
    The only judgements I'm prepared to make, that warrants action on my part are:

    1)Is that person's actions right now the beginning of a physical attack on me or my property, that I need to defend against?

    2)Does that person choose to not respond to the world around him with rational, logical reason, that I should then ignore?

    That doesn't mean that I won't act on my personal preference and prejudice.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 4 months ago
    judging is like discrimination -- if you don't do it, you
    turn into a worm and die off. . my jeep is 38 years old
    and carries the license plate "nelybel" in honor of the
    old Roy Rogers Show jeep ... I'm the guy! -- j
    .
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      Your Jeep reminds me of my old Hudson Hornet which was Hudson's attempt at making a compact car. I bought it at 12 years old. It was decked out with all the beautiful Hudson interior features and ran like a top. However, after 25 years in Michigan, with winter salted roads, the car's body started falling apart even though the blasted car kept running. Finally, both bumpers fell off and the floorboard sagged and the carburetor went bppt. My son and I were miles from home. I put a sign on the windshield along with the registration saying anyone who wants it can have it. We walked the two miles home. The next day it was gone.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 4 months ago
        they made 'em better back then, but it took a lot of gas
        to make 'em run. . the jeep gets about 15 whether you're
        pulling something or not. . it's tough, like the Hudson. -- j
        .
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  • Posted by BradA 8 years, 4 months ago
    Admittedly I am probably the least qualified as a biblical scholar here, but this quote is one of many that are used and interpreted incorrectly. The verse when taken out of context loses its intent and meaning. The full quote is “Do not judge, so that you will not be judged, since you will be judged in the same judgment that you make, and you will be measured by the same standard you apply.” It is not an admonition against making a judgment but an instruction that in doing so, that you examine your moral authority.
    Another common one is the popular "Thou shalt not kill" when in fact an accurate translation is "Thou shalt not murder."
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 4 months ago
    I agree with blarman and Thoritsu: judge, but- by and large- keep your mouth shut. The bottom line has to be 'whether their fist hits your nose' in some respect.

    That being said, I am increasingly aware that the 'superficial' judgments we are supposed to refrain from are actually important metrics.

    For example: A person with an 'old clunker'. Does this person realize that he is unable to get a date because the quality of woman he looks at is unimpressed by his vehicle (and clothes, which are 'old clunker' too). How does this effect me as his neighbor? It means that this is someone who is oblivious to how human beings judge on appearance. If I interact with this person, I need to be prepared to deal with this huge lacuna in his psyche.

    Similarly, the woman who dresses like a teen or the guy who's speedo you cannot see but for his pot belly overhanging it. These are people who have some defect in their vision of reality, and a wise person will take this into consideration when dealing with them.

    It is cosmically true that there should be no designated 'teen dress code' or 'correct car age', but there is actually such a thing in effect in our culture. If someone broadcasts that they are outside of 3SD from the local norm, you are advised to understand 'why' in order to interact with them effectively.

    Do not ignore input from observation in order to maintain a politically correct philosophy.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 4 months ago
    Judgement calls are comparisons of what we see against some standard - whether arbitrary or from experience. The real question is whether or not the standard is reflective of reality or merely cobbled together from what we wish reality to be.

    If we make our judgments against reality, our judgments will be well-founded on correct premises and principles and will reflect that same reality.

    Question: "How about the guy in the neighborhood who refuses to keep up with the Joneses? He's the guy with the 10 year old clunker in his driveway."
    Incorrect Premise: Having all new automobiles is an accurate measure of a person's utility or value.
    Correct Premise: Have we actually gotten to know that person and see what is unique or special about that individual?

    Question: "How about the woman who dresses like a girl half her age?
    Incorrect Premise: There is a certain acceptable "look" for women of any particular age.
    Correct Premise: Are a person's looks indicative of their personality or value, or merely a symptom of trying to draw attention?
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
    Judging is OK, although its not politically correct in this crazy culture. Acting on them should be tempered by an acceptance of other persons rights. Political correctness HAS TO GO. Say what you think and feel and be yourself.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      PC should only mean, Personal Computer. Political correctness is a ploy to soften the spirit of mankind based on the assumption that their feelings are so delicate that almost any critical statement on any subject that can be possibly be related to them in any way is offensive and should be banned and the person punished.
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  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 4 months ago
    I believe everyone judges. Sometimes it is with all the fact and sometime not.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      I think you're right. That little passage is like giving permission for anyone to do anything.
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      • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 4 months ago
        Personally I don't think it is a passage that gives an individual any right. It is an individual choice to choose their own decisions or judgements. As long as an individual is doing no harm to someone else in making their judgement I see no issue with it.
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      • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 4 months ago
        why are you interjecting a religious comment when and if you are an objectivist religion should not be broached.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
          To whom are you addressing your comment? If it is me, I used the biblical comment to point out the inanity of it compared to Rand's version. We must often quote non-Objectivist pronouncements in order to point out their fallacy. Many persons will use biblical quotes as debate or converstation stoppers. By shooting them down in a single sentence the person who smugly used the quote is usually so unexpectedly befuddled, they are rendered speechless.
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          • Posted by sfdi1947 8 years, 4 months ago
            I do not believe that Objectivism denies Religion, from what I've read it only denies Organized Religion, which has been, from time immortal, a sycophant sub-culture, even though among its members, it has had many great and dedicated men and women, supporting good work, it is a sea of leeches.
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            • Posted by Timelord 8 years, 4 months ago
              Objectivism doesn't deny religion any more than it denies the moon, but I don' t think that's what you meant. Objectivist thought does not allow for the existence of a magical, supernatural being, the existence of whom cannot be proven using the scientific method. (Rand doesn't specify the scientific method but that's how it works out in the end.)

              The presence of or the lack of organization is irrelevant.
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              • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
                Rand was unabashedly anti religion. She saw it as anti-reason and an excuse for coercion. She was disgusted by religions promise of glories after death, thus making any hardship on earth almost an object of reverence. Further, she thought of it as an excuse for wars (God is on our side) which is illustrated by the use of religion by Muslims as an excuse to perpetrate all kinds of horrors. She put forth that wars were the result of following the leads of the mystic (Religion) and/or The Hun (Dictator-Ruler).
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          • -1
            Posted by wiggys 8 years, 4 months ago
            then why bother speaking with them?
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            • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
              Because silence may be taken as agreement.
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              • -1
                Posted by wiggys 8 years, 4 months ago
                not if you walk away.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
                  Phew! You are persistent.
                  Well, let's talk about judgment. If I judge that the person I am talking to is merely misguided and is open to new thoughts and experience, I might take the time to do a bit of teaching. If the ripostes are mostly questions then I know I'm right in my judgement. If they are merely argumentative, I can either argue back or walk away. Usually walk away because its not worth the effort in most cases.
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                  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
                    Following the teachings of Objectivism and the Quotes of AR no ramming your head into a brick wall made of concrete and stupid. Walk away.

                    Following the quotes of our training sergeant on the demo range. ANY problem can usually be solved with a stick of dynamite. Some take two or three. Dynamite comes in many forms. Some verbal and some action. Such as turning around walking away with hands thrown in the air saying, "Is that fool still talking to himself? You may insert freaking and exchange him for her or it.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 4 months ago
    This question applies also to the rampage of people against "politically incorrect" comments they claim offend them. Every word and nuance gets parsed and judged for potential offense. It's time to bring back the old principle that "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." Provocative language may be rude but not cause for actions, like lawsuits or slugfests, in retaliation for real or imagined insults. By all means judge the source, the attitude, and perhaps ignore or avoid that person in future. But physical retribution to non-physical behavior is a no-no.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
      PC means Pusillanimous Cavil ...doesn't it?

      I can't take anything seriously that replaces one perceived fault with a worse version. PerSON PerSON is there a PerDAUGHTER I dont THINK so... Wait Person? I don't want to wait I want service. etc. One wonders if they ever opened a dictionary. I've yet to be unable to find a gender non specific version and they don't sound STUPID!

      pu·sil·lan·i·mous
      ˌpyo͞osəˈlanəməs/
      adjective
      adjective: pusillanimous

      showing a lack of courage or determination; timid.
      synonyms: timid, timorous, cowardly, fearful, faint-hearted, lily-livered, spineless, craven, shrinking; More

      Cavil

      il
      ˈkavəl/
      verb
      3rd person present: cavils

      1. make petty or unnecessary objections.
      "they caviled at the cost"

      noun plural noun: cavils

      a. objection seen as petty or unnecessary.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
        Talking about waiters and waitresses: Some years ago, my son and I went to lunch at a fairly upscale restaurant. The tables were filled, but no one was waiting in line. After being seated, we tried for the next ten or fifteen minutes to catch the waiter as he sailed by. We were on our lunch break and had work to do back at the office. Finally the waiter approached and my son said, watch this in a whisper. Watch this.
        Waiter: May I help you?
        Son: Yes, do you have scruples?
        Waiter: I don't think so.
        Son: Will you please ask the Chef if he has scruples.
        So the waiter reluctantly goes into the kitchen and comes back.
        Waiter: No sir, the chef has he doesn't have scruples.
        Son (in a very loud voice): What? No scruples? I won't eat in any restaurant that doesn't have scruples.
        He then gets up and storms out. I had no choice but to follow. We picked up some tacos on the way back to the office.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 4 months ago
    The only judgements I'm prepared to make, that warrants action on my part are:

    1)Is that person's actions right now the beginning of a physical attack on me or my property, that I need to defend against?

    2)Does that person choose to not respond to the world around him with rational, logical reason, that I should then ignore?

    That doesn't mean that I won't act on my personal preference and prejudice.
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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 4 months ago
    I don't give a damn or judge what anyone else does as long as it does not effect me in a negative manner. I get told I shouldn't smoke all the time and usually by some seriously overweight woman in spandex who would do well by keeping her mouth shut.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      The wrath of a smoker.
      As long as you don't do it near me, you can smoke until you lungs dry up, and I'd never say a thing to you about it. Nor would I tell the spandex fat lady anything. One tenet I "religiously" adhere to is MYOB Mind Your Own Business. That and saying no to whoever I damn well please says it all.
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      • Posted by GaryL 8 years, 4 months ago
        It has absolutely nothing to do with a "Wrath" and everything to do with not throwing stones from inside your glass house! I can agree with not doing it near you in an enclosed space but outdoors in an open space you have every right to stay away from me while I smoke. In my own private space, my home or car, you have every right to stay out and walk if you prefer. I don't allow pot or any other drugs in my home or auto but you can do them until your teeth fall out but keep off my roads.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
          That's fine. No problem at alI. I smoked for 30 years before quitting, so I have an inkling about how you feel. I loved to smoke. If I ran out of cigarettes my wife said I'd probably fire off a gun and suck the smoking barrel. How I quit is a tale for a future post. As to "wrath" I was being sarcastic -- I think.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
            One of my friends said he has found the perfect way to quit smoking. His plan which he followed was to single hand his boat to Hawaii with exactly half the normal ration of cigarettes. Some weeks later he called to report arrival. "How did the smoking cure work?"

            "Halfway there I started sailing faster"

            "Three quarters of the way there I was passing up power boats."

            "Seven eighths of the way there I had changed landfall to the nearest port and has been offered a spot on an America's Cup team."

            15/16ths I used the radio and reserved immediate haulout for new bottom paint and a case of Marlboro Reds."

            "I take it the plan didn't work?"

            "What gave you that clue.?"
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            • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
              My tale is a bit simpler. As with Snoopy, "It was a dark and stormy night." At around 2 pm a thunderclap woke me up.I staggered to the bathroom and when I came out, I went to my English Ovals, the strongest cigs I could find. It was out. I looked for my back-up Pall Malls. Nothing. I contemplated the ashtray, but there were butts too tiny to light. There was an all night convenience store about a mile down the road. I put on my London Fog coat, shoes, no socks and moved to the door. Just then, as I opened the door, a gust of wind swept rain over me from head to toe, and at the same time lightning flashed. I shut the door. Sat down on the living room couch. And then, I talked to myself: "Its 2 o'clock in the am, I'm wearing a coat over my PJs. I'm wearing loafers over my bare feet. Its raining thunder and lightning in torrents and I'm going out for cigarettes." I'm an addicted fool. Haven't smoked a cigarettes, unloaded my stash of cigars and threw out my pipes. Haven't touched tobacco since 1974.
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  • Posted by sfdi1947 8 years, 4 months ago
    Consideration of superficial observations are not judgement. Both God and Rand, I think, use a higher reference when speaking of judgement. When we try and judge a capital murderer in court, do we truly know what was in that person's mind when the crime against society was committed. In such cases only God can forgive. Rand however was speaking, I believe, of more earthly, human failures, specifically, our tendency to assign more import to things we see, to things that have no import. I guy with a ten year old clunker may be an ace mechanic and the clunker may not be a clunker, just out of date. Does that make the man a bad person or just a damn good mechanic? Does a persons style of dress do more than mark them as different? Many others, look at some American Styles and shudder, revolted by the appearance, but should that be a judgible facet? I think not, therefore: Judge not, lest ye be judged." rather accept the observation as choices you might not want to make.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      There are always exceptions. Humans are so multi-faceted that one judgment doesn't always fit all. Take clothing in another example: A woman wearing a burka. There certainly is a number of judgments to be made.
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