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Where do these people come from?
As for the demolition set-up, there are many interesting factors to address that. An elevator was under construction, there was work going on after-hours to install new security systems, etc... I won't get into all of those, but it is entirely possible since the inner core is not visible.
If you can explain how all the concrete, all human bodies, and almost every piece of furniture and computer was pulverized into dust and tiny particles from a "collapse" then you would win the prize.
My questioning began the day of, and I honestly don't have answers to those questions yet. But, the big moment was looking at the TIME magazine cover. It was an image of a firefighter standing on rubble with the 30' tall windows of the lobby in the background. The question flashed in my head: "if 100 stories of steel, concrete and office stuff "collapsed", why am I looking out of a 1st floor window? There should be a 200 feet of stuff piled up. Like I said, no definitive answer yet, but I find 25% of a building causing a full collapse of 75% of a building and pulverizing concrete an absurd explanation.
You then made 2 contradictory statements in your post.
(A) If you can explain how all the concrete, all human bodies, and almost every piece of furniture and computer was pulverized into dust and tiny particles from a "collapse"
(B) "if 100 stories of steel, concrete and office stuff "collapsed", why am I looking out of a 1st floor window?
I do understand that some mass..possibly government...conspiracy and cover up is comforting to some....but sometimes in life, things are just as they appear.
"I love the conspiracy theorists that suggest the twin towers were blown up. In order to believe that you have to #1...disbelieve the lying eyes of everyone in Manhattan that was there when the airplanes actually flew in to the building! ".
---you just made the claim that if a person believes the buildings were blown up/exploded, etc.. that person is not acknowledging that planes flew into the buildings. That is 99% of the time false.
I made no contradictory statements. I asked questions that correspond to the same thing, the pulverizing of the contents of the buildings. If the buildings collapsed, there would be large chunks piled up, not powders and tiny fragments. I have no idea how you can think those two questions are contradictory, being honest.
A cover up or a "conspiracy" is not comforting in any way. (the 9/11 Commission Report is a "conspiracy theory" as well, by the way) That is also an absurd claim. It is the "official" explanation and the redacted testimony and evidence that is comforting to the general public - you have it reversed. NIST refuses to provide their computer modeling data to show that the planes caused the collapse - is that comforting to you? My guess is the answer is yes. If things are just as they appear, then you need to provide explanations to my questions - the subject of my questions is exactly how things appear in real life.
Just because I question mass media and government sources doesn't make me a deranged "conspiracy theorist". I also questioned weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, nation-building Afghanistan instead of killing Bin Laden, the wisdom that we needed to hire ISIS to take out Gaddafi and our supplying ISIS with weapons and intelligence in Syria. That makes me prescient and reasonable. You probably supported all of those things, because things are "just as they appear" apparently.
I never stated you were a "deranged "conspiracy theorist"."
Some folks just cant stand a simple explanation or believe their lying eyes!.
Now go vote for who the media tells you to like a good dog.
That was fantastic!
For what it is worth, I have been working metal professionally for over 4 decades. My primary customers are Foundries. I have studied metallurgy, but there is nothing like a demonstration and most people never get them. I believe that Popular Mechanics got it right as far as the mechanics of the event. http://www.popularmechanics.com/milit...
Now as to any conspiracy theories about who may have been ultimately behind the events... One must also consider the phone calls received by loved ones and their account from the plane that was brought down by the passengers (UA93). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/world... One must dismiss this altogether as unrelated or faked too and part of the conspiracy... Many questions... I cannot say definitively, since I have no first hand knowledge, but I am inclined to use Occam's Razor, I believe. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/occamraz.html
Respectfully,
O.A.
It is a theory... and there is a history of false flags...
"Remember the Maine!" :)
Respectfully,
O.A.
Exactly. It doesn't fit. Sorry if I was not clear.
Respectfully,
O.A.
There are, thankfully, those willing to spend the time following their instincts to investigate the inconsistencies of the official narrative. Among those are a group of professional pilots who have logged thousands of hours in the very type of aircraft that were used in the "attacks" of 9/11. Using FAA approved full-motion flight simulators in which they routinely conduct training for certification and proficiency, none of them, despite their massive experience and expertise, were able to fly Boeing 757 simulators into the Twin Towers. It's easy enough to find the accounts online, you can research that yourself. .
What I would like to share, however, are the views concerning questions that the professional architects and engineers who have joined the 9/11 Truth movement choose not to get into: Who did it and why?
This is a link to a short interview with Christopher Bollyn. I think you'll find in interesting and enlightening:
https://youtu.be/_0p0OIHZ-RI
Interesting as well are two books by Rebekah Roth, who spent nearly thirty years in an airline career working as both a flight attendant and an international purser. She was trained as an emergency medical technician and served as a volunteer firefighter. Her books are titled Methodical Illusion and Methodical Deception. In these books you'll learn about the lies told to us by our media about those events; among those being the lies about the inflight calls that were allegedly made from the airliners while in flight. You can find plenty of videos of Rebeka Roth on YouTube if you prefer videos to books.
Most of you will not invest the time to watch this 5 hour video. Those of you who will will be rewarded with the accounts of level-headed professional scientists, architects and engineers who take apart the lies found in the official narrative and that which was penned by Michael Chertoff's cousin in Popular Mechanics.
https://youtu.be/8DOnAn_PX6M
Still with me? Check out Barbara Honegger:
https://youtu.be/4fvJ8nFa5Qk
And last but not least is an outstanding Italian documentary: Zero
https://youtu.be/QU961SGps8g
I wouldn't be surprised that the whole WTC conspiracy theory was Islamic Propaganda to blame the CIA instead of their own.
EX: A Grizzly Coroner fact: 3 gallons of gasoline is enough to completely incinerate a person if contained in a steel box, (no DNA left, NONE)
So hundreds (if not thousands) of gallons of fuel is actually enough BTU's to heat steel enough for it to lose its temper and also heat it enough that it will become malleable. That is a FACT of science and engineering. (This fuel is also most likely responsible for incernerating a large number of bodies).
Another fact Explosives leave residue and signs of extreme heat (completely melted steel). IF explosives had been used the evidence would have easily been found. IT would have taken several hundred pounds of directed charges all sequenced in a very particular order in order to cause an implosion. This would require a particular type of control wire, more evidence (also not found).
So while a conspiracy seems like a good explanation. The size of the destruction and material need to conduct it, would have made it impossible to conceal all the evidance. (Welcome to the real world). By the way I do have first hande experience with said material that you propose was used. It just doesn't work like in the movies.
In addition to that concrete also has affects due to high heat and it will also become brittle. Concrete adds to the building structural strength. And when concrete can no longer support its own weight as a result of weakening by high heat it crumbles and falls. This sets off other factors such as calculated floor loads. IF a floor load is exceeded the integrity of the cross beams are GREATLY diminished. As a result it is very likely they will deflect, causing the vertical beams to experience shearing in a greater than designed limit.
All of these facts and many more support the conclusion that was produced by engineers. All of whom knew more about the structure of this building then I and you combined.
This is well established engineering data and fact.
So you can refute all you want but my guess is you need to educate yourself (no insult intended) on structural engineering and the effects on structural material by sustained very high heat. You can read a great deal on research from MIT, Cal Tech, etc.…
But when the planes hit the towers, they cut a large number of the Structural Steel members. So you basically have a snowballing engineering problem:
1.) The impact of the planes knocked off any fireproofing used to protect the steel and concrete.
2.) The Steel strength was about 50% after a few minutes due to the heat generated.
3.) There was 25% fewer steel columns from when the planes hit them.
4.) The most generous safety factors of 100% extra strength suddenly evaporate when you take #'s 1, 2, and 3 into account.
What SJ might be missing is, for example, how a karate expert can break multiple boards stacked up with one blow...
In most cases, the boards are separated by spacers, so when the expert breaks the top board, the momentum in his fist AND in the first board's breaking BOTH contribute to the force on the second board, third, and so on.
When several floors of a VERY tall building collapse straight down onto The Next Floor Down, there's no way in hell a building can be designed (feasibly or economically) to withstand cumulative forces like that!
I really don't understand why more people, the media included, seem to ignore Facts Of Nature like that...
Oh, and the "there were explosions" quotes are equally ludicrous. Do you know Anything About Human Beings Today???
A person who hears ANYTHING RESEMBLING a "big bang" immediately assumes it was a gunshot or an explosive being set off. It doesn't matter what the source was or if any real explosives were involved.... they hear Bang, they assume Bullet or Explosive. Human nature. Fallible.
Critical Thinking is Still Dead...
1.) The core.
2.) The exterior steel.
And the exterior steel took a thrashing both from the collision, and the fire.
They fell completely symmetrical because they were standing straight up after the impact. Modern skyscrapers have a strong core (often concrete) and a strong exterior shell (often steel). If the initial impact didn't make the top lean over (significantly), then the resulting failure would be vertical itself.
The towers fell at Free Fall speed because the energy the top section had after falling a mere 20 feet would have far, far exceeded to material crush strength of the remaining building. I.E. Each floor wouldn't stop the falling mass and slowly (relatively) fail structurally at each stop. What happened was the complete material destruction of the concrete and steel. After the first few floors, the energy only built. That's why it didn't pancake down.
Several hundred thousand tons of flaming rubble and wreckage fell on Building 7. What do you expect to happen after that?
They do not appear as explosive collapses. And they don't appear as Structural Failures either, because it was material failure. That's what happens when you heat up structures and strip them of their fire proofing.
When you get 24 years as I've said infantry and similar assignments as I've often alluded to and sometimes admitted to as a iin my co equal specialty as demolitionest you learn to use the structure itself as the main force. From the ground level the destruction of support members using small counter force charges is all that's needed .as many as there are support columns same with bridges or any other structures. The weight does the work. Always the easiest way possible. Timber bridge gasoline and a match. Enclosed building a dust initiator like any coal mine or flour mill explosion. To this particular episode add the modern version or FAE from the jet fuel..inside to outside in direction and that was the only possible explosion UNLESS all those people watched dozens of union member openly plant charges.
When you can show me experience in the trades and objective explanations try again. Perfectly symmetric? No stuff sherlock even watch a building dropped on purpose? It's induced structural failings. Big secret? Not since Engineering schools and the release of classified manuals by our idiot Presidents of the past. That manual is openly downloaded on the internet complete with the OK City Bomb. It ain't rocket science it's straight up engineering. The curious part is the conspiracy wing nuts got there theories so fast and that MAY have been part of the plan along with crop dusters and anthrax residue. MAY if it was it worked brilliantly. A ready and willing audience of those a few slices short of a loaf and a say anything for air time media.... Anthrax sent to Congress. Perfect timing and very little effort to spread.
Followed by an understanding of Secret Service procedures and more diversion because they were followed. President went straight to one of the Airborne Command Posts known as Air Force One and his staff took charge at the White House. End of that idiotic group of remarks. I only heard it from the left wing media and their puppy dog followers anyway. No conspiracy there just prior training and Pavlovian response.
Good way to eliminate someone without having nasty DNA around to incrimminate you.
"Weakened steel does not fail explosively. It gradually loses strength along it's stress-strain curve and then only in the areas that attain the temperatures required to fail. Steel is an excellent heat conductor and will conduct heat away from the point of application. The materials "specific heat" will show you how much it has to absorb in order to get hot. This is measured in BTU's / mass. You can have flames as hot as you like but if there is not enough heat energy available to heat up the material you will do nothing.
There was not enough heat value in the jet fuel to come anywhere close to making the steelhot enough to fail. You will run out fuel long before that happens and the math is straight forward.
You simply take the tons of steel in question, the amount of BTU's it would take to make thesteel hot, including the concrete and the air and you just can't do it.
In fact it is so far from possible, the fires cannot be a factor, the temperature would not have even come close to the starting of the elastic region.
Anyone who repeats the jet fuel burns at xxx and steel loses yy% of it strength at xxx temp is an idiot or a liar or just cannot understand the physics involved here.
That this was an official explanation tells me that they are lying. When a suspect lies, ask any cop what that tells him.
As an aside, jet fuel burns at 1800 degrees all right IN A JET ENGINE. A jet engine forces air through a compressor to get enough volume and mass of O2 to support the combustion. You cannot get the fuel to burn at anywhere near that temp in open air, there is not enough mass air flow for an optimal stoichiometric ratio.
Even if you could, which you can't kerosene only yields 18,500 Btu/lb in perfect conditions.
In open air you'd be lucky to get 20% of that efficiency, but even at 100% efficiency there aren't enough BTU's to heat up the steel past about 700 degrees.
If you use a full fuel loading with zero gallons burned in the fireball and zero gallons sent down the elevator shaft to blow up the lobby you still only have enough fuel to to get the steel up to 500 degrees or so. That's with optimal heat transfer into the steel, best case conditions of delta-T and R values, with worst case delta-t for the heat LOSS from the steel. As material heat up they radiate and conduct heat AWAY at a rate governed by the temperature and ambient factors. So the hotter the steel gets the more heat it LOSES. This is why steel mills use crucibles to hold the steel as well as the heat.
The specific heat of steel is 240 btu/ton per degree > to raise the temp from ambient to 1800 degrees would require 432,000 btu/s ton at OPTIMAL efficiency. The concrete requires even more over 800,000 btu's.
The the air also has to heat up, and air being a poor conductor and all the humidity in the air, the specific heat of water is 8 times higher than steel and 5 times high than concrete.
It's a rather long equation but not really complex. Bottom line, not enough BTU to make the steel hot enough to fail. Can't be done. Something else brought the buildings down. If they didn't fall immediately after the impacts there is now way the fires could have triggered it as the tensile and compressive strength of the steel did not change at all ( reference the stress-strain diagram for structural steel) after the fires did their work. It never exceeded it's maximum working stress, if it did, the top would have fallen over towards the point of maximum damage. It would have done this slowly as the stress progressed along to top of the curve to the point of maximum or ultimate strength. The metal would be very deformed at this point.
From the the origin to the point called proportional limit, the stress-strain curve is a straight line. This is called Hooke's Law that within the proportional limit, the stress is directly proportional to strain up to the elastic limit. That is the limit beyond which the material will no longer go back to its original shape when the load is removed, or it is the maximum stress that may be developed such that there is no permanent or residual deformation when the load is entirely removed.
The structural damage by the impact either failed the structure right away or the it brought it past the elastic limit. If it reached a certain point the curve here is actually longer that the portion from 0-the EL, the steel will start to deform plastically, that is bend like taffy. There was zero evidence of this."
If as they will say that the fireproofing was all blown away by the impact makes it even harder, as the steel can radiate more heat if it is uncovered.
We can also calculate the rate of heat transfer INTO the steel beams. It is a function of the differential temperature, the specific heat of the steel, the surface area of the expose material and the R value of the air or any remaining building materials between the flame and the steel, as well as the airflow ( mass flow rate of hot air).
Al these factors except R can be definitively identified. using the maximum value for R, you'd run out of fuel ( assuming 100% fuel loading on the plane with zero for elevator shaft and fireball) before you got a 700 degree T-rise anywhere.
But the Kean Commission weenies also state that vast amounts of fuel poured down the elevator shafts to account for the damage to the ground floor. So where that that leave us?
As to this guys tests, I think planes did fly into the building, whether they were set up by the government I wouldnt deny, but I really dont know. I look at the results afterwards- the government was the one that benefited by the whole terror thing- so I am suspicious.
As to the way the building fell, I have never seen a big building fall STRAIGHT DOWN without tipping to one side or the other. That is suspicious also.
As to the pentagon issue, I dont get how the hole in the side of the building is round, while a 757 has wings and engines which should make SOME damage outside of the round hole. Where were the engines anyway? They are hard and big but they disappeared. Very suspicious also.
The building fell straight down because of the design. It had a strong concrete core, and steel support around the outside. Why would it tip when all the forces were vertical?
The 757, despite being large, is a very light weight object. What do you think happens when you take something very light and smash it into a building that literally had just been reinforced to protect from explosions? And the engines were found inside. The pictures are there to see, if you bother to look.
As to the building, the forces bringing the building down were huge, and it just doesnt seem reasonable that they would be applied straight down. The plane hit on one side also, giving unbalanced forces to start with. Just seemed odd to me since buildings always tilt a little, and when they do, they go over.
After all, the fuselage did create the hole when it slammed into the cement structure. But the wings which support the fuselage in flight didnt make any larger hole, even with large and heavy engines attached?
Occam's razor. It doesn't take a massive complex governmental conspiracy to explain 9/11 It wasn't even the first attack on the towers.
How did the airplane penetrate the building.? BIG Ass windows who cared if the wings sheared off?
The rest is the usual idiot conspiracy theorists claptrap. So don't come back and say 'how do you explain this or that. Your question. You explain it."
Personally I think it was Lakoff building a phallic symbol metaphor.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7485331.stm
"Vast Conspiracy" is practically an oxymoron.
The more people who know - the more likely the secret will be blown.
How many people would be needed to fake 9/11?
Dozens? Hundreds?
---
But I've never once seen a theorist change their mind when faced with contrary evidence.
That's a problem, y'know.
Not good.
Also in my experience not one person in 1000 can bear to seriously consider the darkness as possible that government being involved would entail. Minds shut down in horror.
I happen to know enough evidence and facts to know for certain that the government's conspiracy theory (yes they have theirs too) is a very effective but flawed cover story for a false flag attack. Read up on Operation Northwoods if you want some precedent for it. Or Gulf of Tonkin. I could go on...but it's up to you and each of us to use our powers of observation and reason and think for ourselves.
https://truthandshadows.wordpress.com...
and this:
https://youtu.be/xziyAGfWB6A
which people would know if they watched mister wizard
or whoever still does science things like that. . and this guy
is wonderful -- how did you find him? -- j
.
1) it is standard practice since the skyjackings of the 70s to have jets on the wing-tips of of course planes within minutes. It didn't happen this time.
2) The twin towers are the first steel skyscrapers known to have come down from fire. Even when the entire building is on fires for 24 hours. Two of them in one day.
3) weakened steel where the fire is hottest does not account for little or no resistance from the rest of the floors on the way down.
4) The bizarre case of Bldg. 7 that wasn't hit by anything;
5) The President calmly reading a goat story to kids after this started and even after the second hit at a known scheduled location. Odd behavior in the case of an attack.
6) long after we clearly knew we were under attack somehow a commercial plane that disappeared afterwards managed to hit the Pentagon in one of the most heavily defended air spaces in the nation.
These are off the top of my head as I haven't thought about this for a while. But something does not add up here.
1.) Can't speak to that practice, but the hijackers picked routes that either took them near New York anyway, or had a lot of fuel. They also went "dark", with no communications, when hijackers to that point at least made some token communications.
2.) True, but that's because there's not much to burn in steel buildings. Introduce several hundred gallons of jet fuel, and then things are very, very different.
3.) When the entire top quarter of the world trade towers starts falling, it has an energy that far, far, far exceeds the "Material Crush Strength" of concrete and steel. I.E. Each and every floor won't stop the ludicrously high (and rising as it drops more) momentum as it falls and pancake down floor by floor.
4.) Several hundred thousand tons of flaming rubble landed on Building 7. I looked in the dictionary, and that definitely is in the definition for "anything."
5.) Which is better when leading a class filled with little kids? Calmly acting like nothing is happening? Or jumping up and down yelling, "HOLY SHIT, WE'RE ALL GOING TO FREAKING DIE!"?
6.) Look at an ATC map of all the planes in the sky and moving, and you'll get an understanding of the scale and why it was easy to lose a plane.
Whether it be Fort Sumter, the sinking of the Maine, sinking of the Lusitania, "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin or the recent "Ghost Riders in the Sky" (one scenario for the 9/11 plane attacks), the banking cartels tend to do very well during wartime.
Of course all of this is just so much noise when you consider that:
1. The Mets are playing tonight and I got my Tivo set to record Dancing with the Stars.
2. That 24 ounce porterhouse on the BBQ is smelling really fine.
3. My old lady -- she got a sparkle in her eye.
Partially fueled planes such as adfter a long flight would have vapors in the tanks and that means FAE or Fuel Air Explosive spread by impact Only thing with more explosive power is a nuke.
I'm thinking Frosty did in revenge for the ACLU fostering a program banning Christmas activities.You know of course the people on those planes were anti sonic boom activists protesting the proliferation of the latest boom bomb