Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 8 months ago
    A very neat presentation. I love the conspiracy theorists that suggest the twin towers were blown up. In order to believe that you have to #1...disbelieve the lying eyes of everyone in Manhattan that was there when the airplanes actually flew in to the building! #2. Believe that somehow a team of demolitions experts wired and placed charges in the building with no one noticing all the det cord and wires all over the place. It takes several days of work to place explosives to demolish a small building, never mind 2 if the tallest buildings in the world.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 10 years, 8 months ago
      Certainly, if I saw a surface-to-air missile hit an airliner, I would immediately theorize that it was actually blown up by a bomb that was carried onboard by a terrorist...

      Where do these people come from?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by KCLiberty 10 years, 7 months ago
      You are making very incorrect assumptions. You make the claim that every person who is part of the 9/11 Truth movement believes that no airplanes flew into the buildings. That is an extremely small percentage, and morons, and there is evidence that the entire "no plane" crap is an astroturf project.

      As for the demolition set-up, there are many interesting factors to address that. An elevator was under construction, there was work going on after-hours to install new security systems, etc... I won't get into all of those, but it is entirely possible since the inner core is not visible.

      If you can explain how all the concrete, all human bodies, and almost every piece of furniture and computer was pulverized into dust and tiny particles from a "collapse" then you would win the prize.

      My questioning began the day of, and I honestly don't have answers to those questions yet. But, the big moment was looking at the TIME magazine cover. It was an image of a firefighter standing on rubble with the 30' tall windows of the lobby in the background. The question flashed in my head: "if 100 stories of steel, concrete and office stuff "collapsed", why am I looking out of a 1st floor window? There should be a 200 feet of stuff piled up. Like I said, no definitive answer yet, but I find 25% of a building causing a full collapse of 75% of a building and pulverizing concrete an absurd explanation.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 7 months ago
        You are re-stating what I said...I never said ...." that every person who is part of the 9/11 Truth movement believes that no airplanes flew into the buildings. "
        You then made 2 contradictory statements in your post.

        (A) If you can explain how all the concrete, all human bodies, and almost every piece of furniture and computer was pulverized into dust and tiny particles from a "collapse"
        (B) "if 100 stories of steel, concrete and office stuff "collapsed", why am I looking out of a 1st floor window?

        I do understand that some mass..possibly government...conspiracy and cover up is comforting to some....but sometimes in life, things are just as they appear.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by KCLiberty 10 years, 7 months ago
          With respect, you are dissembling. You absolutely said that. You said:
          "I love the conspiracy theorists that suggest the twin towers were blown up. In order to believe that you have to #1...disbelieve the lying eyes of everyone in Manhattan that was there when the airplanes actually flew in to the building! ".
          ---you just made the claim that if a person believes the buildings were blown up/exploded, etc.. that person is not acknowledging that planes flew into the buildings. That is 99% of the time false.

          I made no contradictory statements. I asked questions that correspond to the same thing, the pulverizing of the contents of the buildings. If the buildings collapsed, there would be large chunks piled up, not powders and tiny fragments. I have no idea how you can think those two questions are contradictory, being honest.

          A cover up or a "conspiracy" is not comforting in any way. (the 9/11 Commission Report is a "conspiracy theory" as well, by the way) That is also an absurd claim. It is the "official" explanation and the redacted testimony and evidence that is comforting to the general public - you have it reversed. NIST refuses to provide their computer modeling data to show that the planes caused the collapse - is that comforting to you? My guess is the answer is yes. If things are just as they appear, then you need to provide explanations to my questions - the subject of my questions is exactly how things appear in real life.

          Just because I question mass media and government sources doesn't make me a deranged "conspiracy theorist". I also questioned weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, nation-building Afghanistan instead of killing Bin Laden, the wisdom that we needed to hire ISIS to take out Gaddafi and our supplying ISIS with weapons and intelligence in Syria. That makes me prescient and reasonable. You probably supported all of those things, because things are "just as they appear" apparently.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 7 months ago
            Again you you put words in my mouth....
            I never stated you were a "deranged "conspiracy theorist"."
            Some folks just cant stand a simple explanation or believe their lying eyes!.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by KCLiberty 10 years, 7 months ago
              Again.....you are just avoiding answering and unable to converse about simple concepts. Ignorance is bliss, no doubt.

              Now go vote for who the media tells you to like a good dog.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 8 months ago
      And it in no way rejects the actual video evidence of planes flying into the buildings in the first place...
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 8 months ago
        Well.....you know "The video could have been faked"!!!
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
          It wasn't. Shop class 101
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 8 months ago
            No...I was being facetious....and I was referring to the video of the airplanes hitting the world trade towers being "Faked".
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
              At the time i thought it an advertisement for a movie.I watched the reruns closely. There was no evidence of internal explosives though if there had been there would have been no need for the aircraft and they could have been used on more lucrative targets. The affect of the target selection was amateurish at best. Symbolism or substance. Like a decaf with skinny milk. Yet it got the job done. Imagine if they had hit the Chambers of the House of Representatives during a State of the Union Address and the capitol is a much more profound symbol. Even so it led to the formation of a police state and the loss of civil liberties and a self created atmosphere of fear. On balance terrorists two points US zero.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 8 months ago
                I disagree that the target selection was amateurish. This was an attack against our economy and power. Also tall towers like that are easier to hit with an aircraft than a building close to the ground...like the pentagon was. If they had hit a federal building full of politicians they would have provided a service to us. The government is a parasite feeding on the body politic and actually weakening the country. The twin towers was full of people that contributed to american wealth and therefore power. The pentagon was full of people that also project power and I might add are actually authorized by the constitution.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 8 months ago
    Hello AJAshinoff,
    That was fantastic!

    For what it is worth, I have been working metal professionally for over 4 decades. My primary customers are Foundries. I have studied metallurgy, but there is nothing like a demonstration and most people never get them. I believe that Popular Mechanics got it right as far as the mechanics of the event. http://www.popularmechanics.com/milit...

    Now as to any conspiracy theories about who may have been ultimately behind the events... One must also consider the phone calls received by loved ones and their account from the plane that was brought down by the passengers (UA93). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/world... One must dismiss this altogether as unrelated or faked too and part of the conspiracy... Many questions... I cannot say definitively, since I have no first hand knowledge, but I am inclined to use Occam's Razor, I believe. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/occamraz.html

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by BrettRocketSci 10 years, 8 months ago
      Respectfully back to you, Occams Razor was enough for me until I discovered a few too many curiosities and amazing coincidences with the official explanations. Such as the call to Ted Olsen from his wife, which was the source of the box cutter account. The technology to connect from a cell phone in those conditions in 2001 was very spotty and immature. And the data records from the cell phone carrier showed the connection lasted 0 seconds--only an attempted call that failed. Hmmm...you shouldn't take my word for it, and you can't. You have to do more digging than what you'll find in the mainstream popular press. They all have still failed to report that Robert McNamara admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag attack to justify the Vietnam War, which ultimately killed over 50,000 US solidiers and how many Vietnamese? Very hard to face that reality but it is out there.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
      Not sure how that fits in. Planes start hitting buildings people call and connect with cells to family and friends and find out they too are involved I see no link with conspiracy except that of the Jihadists. I do see a link with the use of the crisis for other purposes similar to the AIDs policy. I never believed the government invented the disease that was the same stupidity. I know for a fact they refused to try and contain it and let it spread. Who knows the thinking on that one. Or lack thereof.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
    The official story of 911 has enough holes in it to fly a fleet of 747s through wing tip to wing tip. No, I do not know what really happened that day. But we should not smugly dismiss all those that raise objections as crackpots.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by BrettRocketSci 10 years, 8 months ago
      I was personally involved in two independent investigations into major aviation "accidents" outside of 9/11. My intimate knowledge of the technical details in both cases make me certain that the official NTSB / FBI investigations and conclusions are outrageous cover-ups. Then I started to look at the crash at the Pentagon on 9/11. The government's explanation unraveled pretty quick. It's a mile wide but only one inch thick, metaphorically speaking. Everyone owes it to themselves to be honest and courageous with the facts of reality, and themselves. I now know a lot about what happened and it had a lot more than 19 terrorists with box cutters.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
        So when are all these 'everyone knows' facts going to be presented it's been how many years? Now if you want faked figures try the Kennedy Assassination or the phony automatic weapons in the trial of the Waco survivors or the Tonkin Gulf Incident. Or the intentional setup to ensure the country would be dragged into WWII.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
      Smug is smug and the day believable creditable facts are presented I'll help glue the cracked pots back together but I'm not rushing to the glue store. Check your premises. Your contradiction is wide enough to fly a fleet of Antonov Dremya's through and make a U turn in the center.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by saucerdesigner 10 years, 8 months ago
    As there will always be war, there will always be those who act upon emotion rather than reason. I was among those in the days, weeks and months following 9/11. The perpetrators of the crimes against this country and it's people rely on that fact. (Hint: "Game Theory" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_th...
    There are, thankfully, those willing to spend the time following their instincts to investigate the inconsistencies of the official narrative. Among those are a group of professional pilots who have logged thousands of hours in the very type of aircraft that were used in the "attacks" of 9/11. Using FAA approved full-motion flight simulators in which they routinely conduct training for certification and proficiency, none of them, despite their massive experience and expertise, were able to fly Boeing 757 simulators into the Twin Towers. It's easy enough to find the accounts online, you can research that yourself. .
    What I would like to share, however, are the views concerning questions that the professional architects and engineers who have joined the 9/11 Truth movement choose not to get into: Who did it and why?
    This is a link to a short interview with Christopher Bollyn. I think you'll find in interesting and enlightening:
    https://youtu.be/_0p0OIHZ-RI

    Interesting as well are two books by Rebekah Roth, who spent nearly thirty years in an airline career working as both a flight attendant and an international purser. She was trained as an emergency medical technician and served as a volunteer firefighter. Her books are titled Methodical Illusion and Methodical Deception. In these books you'll learn about the lies told to us by our media about those events; among those being the lies about the inflight calls that were allegedly made from the airliners while in flight. You can find plenty of videos of Rebeka Roth on YouTube if you prefer videos to books.

    Most of you will not invest the time to watch this 5 hour video. Those of you who will will be rewarded with the accounts of level-headed professional scientists, architects and engineers who take apart the lies found in the official narrative and that which was penned by Michael Chertoff's cousin in Popular Mechanics.

    https://youtu.be/8DOnAn_PX6M

    Still with me? Check out Barbara Honegger:

    https://youtu.be/4fvJ8nFa5Qk

    And last but not least is an outstanding Italian documentary: Zero

    https://youtu.be/QU961SGps8g
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by LarryHeart 10 years, 8 months ago
    It's nice to see rationality and an appreciation of objective reality. Conspiracy theorists aren't swayed by facts. Just like the Islamic Terrorists who massacred thousands in the WTC and the planes for an ideology that is one giant conspiracy theory. They believe Nazi and soviet propaganda about Jews and are still fighting Christian "Crusaders". They deny the Holocaust genocide of the Armenians by the Muslim Turks. They deny the accuracy of the Jews preserving the original Hebrew of the Bible and claim that "The Jews" altered the Bible and that Ishmael not Isaac is the true inheritor of Israel. That the USA is the Great Satan and that everything is someone else's fault, that women are slaves and that all non Muslims are guilty of trespass on Muslim land and therefore they can massacre women and children and innocent civilians. That Islam is the only true religion and that Islam must be at war with non-Muslims until the Muslims take over the world... Muahh Ha. Muhammad as Plankton, Dr. Evil and all other cartoon villains.

    I wouldn't be surprised that the whole WTC conspiracy theory was Islamic Propaganda to blame the CIA instead of their own.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by mccwho 10 years, 8 months ago
    Liquid fuel contains a large amount of BTU's.
    EX: A Grizzly Coroner fact: 3 gallons of gasoline is enough to completely incinerate a person if contained in a steel box, (no DNA left, NONE)
    So hundreds (if not thousands) of gallons of fuel is actually enough BTU's to heat steel enough for it to lose its temper and also heat it enough that it will become malleable. That is a FACT of science and engineering. (This fuel is also most likely responsible for incernerating a large number of bodies).
    Another fact Explosives leave residue and signs of extreme heat (completely melted steel). IF explosives had been used the evidence would have easily been found. IT would have taken several hundred pounds of directed charges all sequenced in a very particular order in order to cause an implosion. This would require a particular type of control wire, more evidence (also not found).
    So while a conspiracy seems like a good explanation. The size of the destruction and material need to conduct it, would have made it impossible to conceal all the evidance. (Welcome to the real world). By the way I do have first hande experience with said material that you propose was used. It just doesn't work like in the movies.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
      No, it is not. Check the actual melting points and check the conditions. This was not in a contained steel box and laboratory conditions. In the second hit by the fireball a great deal of fuel was burned outside the building. I would also point out that a lot of the evidence was carted off before any independent examination and there was quite a stink raised about it at the time.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by mccwho 10 years, 8 months ago
        Engineering FACT, Steel will start to lose its structural strength around 1000 deg F. The longer it is kept at high temperatures the more strength (tensile Strength) will be lost. (Not necessarily in a consistent manor). Thus, if the engineered load on members requires the supporting members to sustain a certain strength in order to maintain structural integrity ( That load level may be visualized as a bar graph). And the temperature specs of that particular alloy of steel can be visualized as a graph. When the two graphs are overlapped it would be easy to see that the weakening point of the steel falls into the zone where the structure member (lose tensile Strength) and needs to maintain their strength in order for the structure to remain intact.
        In addition to that concrete also has affects due to high heat and it will also become brittle. Concrete adds to the building structural strength. And when concrete can no longer support its own weight as a result of weakening by high heat it crumbles and falls. This sets off other factors such as calculated floor loads. IF a floor load is exceeded the integrity of the cross beams are GREATLY diminished. As a result it is very likely they will deflect, causing the vertical beams to experience shearing in a greater than designed limit.
        All of these facts and many more support the conclusion that was produced by engineers. All of whom knew more about the structure of this building then I and you combined.
        This is well established engineering data and fact.
        So you can refute all you want but my guess is you need to educate yourself (no insult intended) on structural engineering and the effects on structural material by sustained very high heat. You can read a great deal on research from MIT, Cal Tech, etc.…
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
          Almost. Steel begins to lose (non-negligible) strength around 600 degrees Fahr. By 800, it could lose as much as half. By ~1400 degrees, steel becomes malleable, i.e. as soft as a stick of chewing gum.

          But when the planes hit the towers, they cut a large number of the Structural Steel members. So you basically have a snowballing engineering problem:

          1.) The impact of the planes knocked off any fireproofing used to protect the steel and concrete.

          2.) The Steel strength was about 50% after a few minutes due to the heat generated.

          3.) There was 25% fewer steel columns from when the planes hit them.

          4.) The most generous safety factors of 100% extra strength suddenly evaporate when you take #'s 1, 2, and 3 into account.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • -1
          Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
          Sure. But not enough of it lost strength from a not even straight on hit ventilating to the outside to weaken that much of the core imho. And then for the rest of the building to offer almost known resistance to the fall is beyond belief.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
            what is almost 'known resistance?' lost me at that point.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 8 months ago
              I suspect that was an autospell/autocomplete error when sj wanted to type 'no.'
              What SJ might be missing is, for example, how a karate expert can break multiple boards stacked up with one blow...

              In most cases, the boards are separated by spacers, so when the expert breaks the top board, the momentum in his fist AND in the first board's breaking BOTH contribute to the force on the second board, third, and so on.

              When several floors of a VERY tall building collapse straight down onto The Next Floor Down, there's no way in hell a building can be designed (feasibly or economically) to withstand cumulative forces like that!

              I really don't understand why more people, the media included, seem to ignore Facts Of Nature like that...

              Oh, and the "there were explosions" quotes are equally ludicrous. Do you know Anything About Human Beings Today???

              A person who hears ANYTHING RESEMBLING a "big bang" immediately assumes it was a gunshot or an explosive being set off. It doesn't matter what the source was or if any real explosives were involved.... they hear Bang, they assume Bullet or Explosive. Human nature. Fallible.

              Critical Thinking is Still Dead...
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
            Those sky scrapers are designed as a 2 part system:

            1.) The core.

            2.) The exterior steel.

            And the exterior steel took a thrashing both from the collision, and the fire.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by MaxCasey 10 years, 8 months ago
      I read somewhere that there was evidence of thermite found. Thermite, in paint, add a jet with fuel, no need for explosives, and yes that building will pancake flat. if it was just heat/fire alone, the building would have tilted. The questions still remain about the duration of the fire and level of heat required to get the steel up to an unstable point, and I only bring that up due to other fires of steel buildings that didn't result in a collapse. To me though, the how they collapsed is less important as the events as a whole. Problem, reaction, solution....
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
        I said it elsewhere, but I'll summarize it here. Basically the impact knocked off the fire proofing (which slows down heat transfer so that steel doesn't lose significant strength), cut a significant amount of structural steel members (~25%), and introduced a large amount of fuel for the fire (jet fuel). That's why these steel buildings fell where others didn't.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by BrettRocketSci 10 years, 8 months ago
          That's a very poor explanation sir, and completely bogus. How could they fall perfectly symmetrical? At nearly free fall speed? And building 7? Why do they all appear as explosive collapses, not tumblings such as from structural failures? There was zero plastic deformation such as seen is this clever but largely misunderstood demonstration.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
            Let me get something straight before I continue. I am an Architectural Engineer who did his Thesis on a new Sprinkler system that (I contend) would have kept the towers standing.

            They fell completely symmetrical because they were standing straight up after the impact. Modern skyscrapers have a strong core (often concrete) and a strong exterior shell (often steel). If the initial impact didn't make the top lean over (significantly), then the resulting failure would be vertical itself.

            The towers fell at Free Fall speed because the energy the top section had after falling a mere 20 feet would have far, far exceeded to material crush strength of the remaining building. I.E. Each floor wouldn't stop the falling mass and slowly (relatively) fail structurally at each stop. What happened was the complete material destruction of the concrete and steel. After the first few floors, the energy only built. That's why it didn't pancake down.

            Several hundred thousand tons of flaming rubble and wreckage fell on Building 7. What do you expect to happen after that?

            They do not appear as explosive collapses. And they don't appear as Structural Failures either, because it was material failure. That's what happens when you heat up structures and strip them of their fire proofing.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
            Threre was no visible evidence of explosion other than that produced by impact followed by fire followed by collapse. There was one possible type but the building being no longer enclosed makes that a long shot. End of subject.

            When you get 24 years as I've said infantry and similar assignments as I've often alluded to and sometimes admitted to as a iin my co equal specialty as demolitionest you learn to use the structure itself as the main force. From the ground level the destruction of support members using small counter force charges is all that's needed .as many as there are support columns same with bridges or any other structures. The weight does the work. Always the easiest way possible. Timber bridge gasoline and a match. Enclosed building a dust initiator like any coal mine or flour mill explosion. To this particular episode add the modern version or FAE from the jet fuel..inside to outside in direction and that was the only possible explosion UNLESS all those people watched dozens of union member openly plant charges.

            When you can show me experience in the trades and objective explanations try again. Perfectly symmetric? No stuff sherlock even watch a building dropped on purpose? It's induced structural failings. Big secret? Not since Engineering schools and the release of classified manuals by our idiot Presidents of the past. That manual is openly downloaded on the internet complete with the OK City Bomb. It ain't rocket science it's straight up engineering. The curious part is the conspiracy wing nuts got there theories so fast and that MAY have been part of the plan along with crop dusters and anthrax residue. MAY if it was it worked brilliantly. A ready and willing audience of those a few slices short of a loaf and a say anything for air time media.... Anthrax sent to Congress. Perfect timing and very little effort to spread.

            Followed by an understanding of Secret Service procedures and more diversion because they were followed. President went straight to one of the Airborne Command Posts known as Air Force One and his staff took charge at the White House. End of that idiotic group of remarks. I only heard it from the left wing media and their puppy dog followers anyway. No conspiracy there just prior training and Pavlovian response.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
      EX: A Grizzly Coroner fact: 3 gallons of gasoline is enough to completely incinerate a person if contained in a steel box, (no DNA left, NONE)

      Good way to eliminate someone without having nasty DNA around to incrimminate you.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by mccwho 10 years, 8 months ago
        There was a murder case in LA where someone tried to dispose of the body by putting the body in a steel dumpster. They dumped two gallons of gasoline into the container and lit it. Since some containers are only two gallons that is what they dumped into it. The police found the container and the perp’s finger prints but the coroner said one more gallon and there would have been no evidence left. The only thing that had to identify the body was a very tiny amount of tissue left in one of the teeth that did not get completely burnt up. IE. three gallons and the perp would have gotten off, based on no evidence.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by MaxCasey 10 years, 7 months ago
    Found this today. I'm not physicist, but it reads pretty neat
    "Weakened steel does not fail explosively. It gradually loses strength along it's stress-strain curve and then only in the areas that attain the temperatures required to fail. Steel is an excellent heat conductor and will conduct heat away from the point of application. The materials "specific heat" will show you how much it has to absorb in order to get hot. This is measured in BTU's / mass. You can have flames as hot as you like but if there is not enough heat energy available to heat up the material you will do nothing.

    There was not enough heat value in the jet fuel to come anywhere close to making the steelhot enough to fail. You will run out fuel long before that happens and the math is straight forward.

    You simply take the tons of steel in question, the amount of BTU's it would take to make thesteel hot, including the concrete and the air and you just can't do it.

    In fact it is so far from possible, the fires cannot be a factor, the temperature would not have even come close to the starting of the elastic region.

    Anyone who repeats the jet fuel burns at xxx and steel loses yy% of it strength at xxx temp is an idiot or a liar or just cannot understand the physics involved here.

    That this was an official explanation tells me that they are lying. When a suspect lies, ask any cop what that tells him.

    As an aside, jet fuel burns at 1800 degrees all right IN A JET ENGINE. A jet engine forces air through a compressor to get enough volume and mass of O2 to support the combustion. You cannot get the fuel to burn at anywhere near that temp in open air, there is not enough mass air flow for an optimal stoichiometric ratio.

    Even if you could, which you can't kerosene only yields 18,500 Btu/lb in perfect conditions.

    In open air you'd be lucky to get 20% of that efficiency, but even at 100% efficiency there aren't enough BTU's to heat up the steel past about 700 degrees.

    If you use a full fuel loading with zero gallons burned in the fireball and zero gallons sent down the elevator shaft to blow up the lobby you still only have enough fuel to to get the steel up to 500 degrees or so. That's with optimal heat transfer into the steel, best case conditions of delta-T and R values, with worst case delta-t for the heat LOSS from the steel. As material heat up they radiate and conduct heat AWAY at a rate governed by the temperature and ambient factors. So the hotter the steel gets the more heat it LOSES. This is why steel mills use crucibles to hold the steel as well as the heat.

    The specific heat of steel is 240 btu/ton per degree > to raise the temp from ambient to 1800 degrees would require 432,000 btu/s ton at OPTIMAL efficiency. The concrete requires even more over 800,000 btu's.

    The the air also has to heat up, and air being a poor conductor and all the humidity in the air, the specific heat of water is 8 times higher than steel and 5 times high than concrete.
    It's a rather long equation but not really complex. Bottom line, not enough BTU to make the steel hot enough to fail. Can't be done. Something else brought the buildings down. If they didn't fall immediately after the impacts there is now way the fires could have triggered it as the tensile and compressive strength of the steel did not change at all ( reference the stress-strain diagram for structural steel) after the fires did their work. It never exceeded it's maximum working stress, if it did, the top would have fallen over towards the point of maximum damage. It would have done this slowly as the stress progressed along to top of the curve to the point of maximum or ultimate strength. The metal would be very deformed at this point.

    From the the origin to the point called proportional limit, the stress-strain curve is a straight line. This is called Hooke's Law that within the proportional limit, the stress is directly proportional to strain up to the elastic limit. That is the limit beyond which the material will no longer go back to its original shape when the load is removed, or it is the maximum stress that may be developed such that there is no permanent or residual deformation when the load is entirely removed.

    The structural damage by the impact either failed the structure right away or the it brought it past the elastic limit. If it reached a certain point the curve here is actually longer that the portion from 0-the EL, the steel will start to deform plastically, that is bend like taffy. There was zero evidence of this."
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by MaxCasey 10 years, 7 months ago
      The diagram for the temperatures tells us that the steel would have to attain a consistent temperature across the entire beam of way over 1500-1800 degrees, a point stress is not enough to induce failure, and there is no way to a localized temperature peak this high without the heat conducting to the rest of the beam. This is shown by the transfer equation is governed by the composition and shape of the beam, Shape is vital in that an I-beam or box had a high surface area to volume ratio, This means heat loss radiated away form the source of the heat is going to be very high, also humidity in the air will absorb the heat faster as water can take a lot of heat before raising it's temperature so initial heat transfer AWAY form the steel will be even higher.

      If as they will say that the fireproofing was all blown away by the impact makes it even harder, as the steel can radiate more heat if it is uncovered.

      We can also calculate the rate of heat transfer INTO the steel beams. It is a function of the differential temperature, the specific heat of the steel, the surface area of the expose material and the R value of the air or any remaining building materials between the flame and the steel, as well as the airflow ( mass flow rate of hot air).

      Al these factors except R can be definitively identified. using the maximum value for R, you'd run out of fuel ( assuming 100% fuel loading on the plane with zero for elevator shaft and fireball) before you got a 700 degree T-rise anywhere.

      But the Kean Commission weenies also state that vast amounts of fuel poured down the elevator shafts to account for the damage to the ground floor. So where that that leave us?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by ycandrea 10 years, 8 months ago
    AJ, it is not moronic to question everything. That is why we have minds. For every supposed "fact" that is espoused to disprove that explosions brought down the WTC, there are just as many "facts" that prove it. I do not put anything past our tyranical, power hungry government, and, yes, even rich businessmen. There are those in power that would do anything to cause a war because there is money to be made and power over the people to be gained. Follow the money and the power.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
    I dont listen anymore to our "leaders". They all have hidden agendas. I make my own decisions and rely on them. If I am wrong, so be it, and I pay the consequences. But I am DONE listening to the manipulations of the so called leaders. DONE.

    As to this guys tests, I think planes did fly into the building, whether they were set up by the government I wouldnt deny, but I really dont know. I look at the results afterwards- the government was the one that benefited by the whole terror thing- so I am suspicious.

    As to the way the building fell, I have never seen a big building fall STRAIGHT DOWN without tipping to one side or the other. That is suspicious also.

    As to the pentagon issue, I dont get how the hole in the side of the building is round, while a 757 has wings and engines which should make SOME damage outside of the round hole. Where were the engines anyway? They are hard and big but they disappeared. Very suspicious also.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
      Where to start, where to start...

      The building fell straight down because of the design. It had a strong concrete core, and steel support around the outside. Why would it tip when all the forces were vertical?


      The 757, despite being large, is a very light weight object. What do you think happens when you take something very light and smash it into a building that literally had just been reinforced to protect from explosions? And the engines were found inside. The pictures are there to see, if you bother to look.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
        I did bother to look. there was no mention of the engines and the hole was round, not wing shaped. And where were the wings? they should have been sheared off and lying on the outside of the building not somehow extruded into the round hole in the building. It just didnt look like what the government said, so as a result I dont believe them.

        As to the building, the forces bringing the building down were huge, and it just doesnt seem reasonable that they would be applied straight down. The plane hit on one side also, giving unbalanced forces to start with. Just seemed odd to me since buildings always tilt a little, and when they do, they go over.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
          They should have sheared off, based on what evidence? This is not rhetorical, but what do you think happens when you take a light weight aluminum structure and slam it in to a reinforced concrete wall at 500+ MPH?
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
            I would expect that given the strength of the wing when hit like that would shear it off from the plane fuselage as opposed to extruding it through a circular hole about the size of the fuselage it was attached to.

            After all, the fuselage did create the hole when it slammed into the cement structure. But the wings which support the fuselage in flight didnt make any larger hole, even with large and heavy engines attached?
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • -1
              Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
              You're assuming a loony-toons type scenario where the coyote leaves a coyote shaped hole in the canyon floor. It doesn't work like that, especially since they had literally just finished renovating that section of the Pentagon to be sturdier against things like bombs.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
                Perhaps so. But at this point we will never know. What we know is that our government profited immensely in terms of power and money from 911. We have less freedom and money and I really doubt we are safer
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 8 months ago
                  The fact that the government profited in power and money from 9/11 doesn't mean they caused it. They might simply have taken advantage of it -- just like they try to take advantage of every bad thing that happens to increase their power.

                  Occam's razor. It doesn't take a massive complex governmental conspiracy to explain 9/11 It wasn't even the first attack on the towers.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by term2 10 years, 8 months ago
                    I agree that the government profiting does not prove causation. But our government lies and distorts and manipulates so much that it's very difficult to accept what they say as truth at all
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by mspalding 10 years, 8 months ago
          Actually it wasn't the plane impact that caused the towers to fall. They both withstood the impact. They fell much later (hour?) when the fires caused by the jet fuel weakened the steel beams sufficiently to cause them to fail. Then the towers fell straight down.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
    Once the structural shapes reached the 'bending' point the weight of the floors above duplicated the example in the film. As the weight obeyed the laws of gravity the energy went from pinky finger to much more and constantly increasing force. From a demolitions point of view it was a perfect solution. As Putin said they may be weird but they aren't stupid.

    How did the airplane penetrate the building.? BIG Ass windows who cared if the wings sheared off?

    The rest is the usual idiot conspiracy theorists claptrap. So don't come back and say 'how do you explain this or that. Your question. You explain it."

    Personally I think it was Lakoff building a phallic symbol metaphor.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 8 months ago
      Building seven?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ 10 years, 8 months ago
        Several building fell that day.. Building Seven, it seems, was snake bit because of its construction and proximity to tower two when it fell.

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7485331.stm
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 8 months ago
          Complete and utter bullshit spouted by bureaucrats hired to cover up the facts.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by Zero 10 years, 8 months ago
            Successful conspiracies have few conspirators.
            "Vast Conspiracy" is practically an oxymoron.
            The more people who know - the more likely the secret will be blown.

            How many people would be needed to fake 9/11?
            Dozens? Hundreds?

            ---
            But I've never once seen a theorist change their mind when faced with contrary evidence.
            That's a problem, y'know.
            Not good.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
              How many in government would keep their mouth shut if severely threatened and/or if they thought it would rip the country apart if they spoke up?

              Also in my experience not one person in 1000 can bear to seriously consider the darkness as possible that government being involved would entail. Minds shut down in horror.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
                Reichstag fire anyone? It wasn't exactly popular to question it for some time. Don't think we do or think of doing stuff like that here? See Operation Notthwoods.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by BrettRocketSci 10 years, 8 months ago
              Hi Zero. From my experience, there isn't any argument from someone else that is going to change a person's mind on what happened. It has to be a very self-guided, methodical, and honest process. The implications and premises are so difficult and painful to comprehend, that it stops most people from making the effort--or even wanting to.
              I happen to know enough evidence and facts to know for certain that the government's conspiracy theory (yes they have theirs too) is a very effective but flawed cover story for a false flag attack. Read up on Operation Northwoods if you want some precedent for it. Or Gulf of Tonkin. I could go on...but it's up to you and each of us to use our powers of observation and reason and think for ourselves.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 7 months ago
    Ironically it took less time for the above mentioned faithful to gather and begin the conspiracy chant than it did for the planes to knock down the buildings.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 8 months ago
    very fine, sir, and Thank You! . there is a world of stuff
    which people would know if they watched mister wizard
    or whoever still does science things like that. . and this guy
    is wonderful -- how did you find him? -- j
    .
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 8 months ago
    Here are a few things that need clearing up from 911.
    1) it is standard practice since the skyjackings of the 70s to have jets on the wing-tips of of course planes within minutes. It didn't happen this time.

    2) The twin towers are the first steel skyscrapers known to have come down from fire. Even when the entire building is on fires for 24 hours. Two of them in one day.

    3) weakened steel where the fire is hottest does not account for little or no resistance from the rest of the floors on the way down.

    4) The bizarre case of Bldg. 7 that wasn't hit by anything;

    5) The President calmly reading a goat story to kids after this started and even after the second hit at a known scheduled location. Odd behavior in the case of an attack.

    6) long after we clearly knew we were under attack somehow a commercial plane that disappeared afterwards managed to hit the Pentagon in one of the most heavily defended air spaces in the nation.

    These are off the top of my head as I haven't thought about this for a while. But something does not add up here.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by jsw225 10 years, 8 months ago
      Utter nonsense atkins.

      1.) Can't speak to that practice, but the hijackers picked routes that either took them near New York anyway, or had a lot of fuel. They also went "dark", with no communications, when hijackers to that point at least made some token communications.

      2.) True, but that's because there's not much to burn in steel buildings. Introduce several hundred gallons of jet fuel, and then things are very, very different.

      3.) When the entire top quarter of the world trade towers starts falling, it has an energy that far, far, far exceeds the "Material Crush Strength" of concrete and steel. I.E. Each and every floor won't stop the ludicrously high (and rising as it drops more) momentum as it falls and pancake down floor by floor.

      4.) Several hundred thousand tons of flaming rubble landed on Building 7. I looked in the dictionary, and that definitely is in the definition for "anything."

      5.) Which is better when leading a class filled with little kids? Calmly acting like nothing is happening? Or jumping up and down yelling, "HOLY SHIT, WE'RE ALL GOING TO FREAKING DIE!"?

      6.) Look at an ATC map of all the planes in the sky and moving, and you'll get an understanding of the scale and why it was easy to lose a plane.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ pixelate 10 years, 7 months ago
        RE # 4 - each tower weighed 500,000 tons. In order for "several hundred thousand tons of flaming rubble to land on building 7", that would imply that the majority of the mass of the North tower's fall was ejected onto building 7. Very little material reached the south face of building 7. Additionally, 7 fell in a symmetric manner in terms of all four base corners and edges. 7 also conveniently contained thousands of SEC filings / many of which did not have backups. These were lost.

        Whether it be Fort Sumter, the sinking of the Maine, sinking of the Lusitania, "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin or the recent "Ghost Riders in the Sky" (one scenario for the 9/11 plane attacks), the banking cartels tend to do very well during wartime.

        Of course all of this is just so much noise when you consider that:
        1. The Mets are playing tonight and I got my Tivo set to record Dancing with the Stars.
        2. That 24 ounce porterhouse on the BBQ is smelling really fine.
        3. My old lady -- she got a sparkle in her eye.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Comment hidden by post owner or admin, or due to low comment or member score. View Comment
    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 8 months ago
      Pentagon is not far off the flight paths for Reagan. In fact it is barely off the flight path. Not a great leap of imagination the plane came in for a landing as normal at the last second turned and hit the Pentagon. Back then the areas was barely protected. One fiction book by Clancy depicted a typical idiot reporter asking what would happen if they had one of those sholder fire missiles. Let' see 6.6 lbs of explosive hits an aircraft weighing in at (Flight 75 was 158,000 pound flying about 155 knots - the Pentagon strike or Clancy's book a 747 cargo up to 800,000 pounds at 150 knots landing speed with the same 3 kilo charge? Fagiddaboutit. What hapens to a light wieight construction like an airplane hitting an imovable object at 150 knots or 175 land miles per hour. Pulverizes.

      Partially fueled planes such as adfter a long flight would have vapors in the tanks and that means FAE or Fuel Air Explosive spread by impact Only thing with more explosive power is a nuke.

      I'm thinking Frosty did in revenge for the ACLU fostering a program banning Christmas activities.You know of course the people on those planes were anti sonic boom activists protesting the proliferation of the latest boom bomb
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo