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  • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 1 month ago
    Stop global warming!
    Snowmen lives matter!
    Stop global warming!
    Snowmen lives matter!
    Stop global warming!
    Snowmen lives matter!
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 7 years, 1 month ago
      The Kringleberg National Guard was issued heat guns, flamethrowers, and propane torches late last night to attempt to quell the Snowman Riots that have overwhelmed North Pole Security Forces since earlier this season. Kristopher Kringle, Mayor of Kringleberg and CEO of Toysak, LLC, stated in an interview late yesterday afternoon that the normally peaceful communities of the Greater Arctic States (Kringleberg, Rudolfheim, Blitzenhof, and Donner Pass) have become awash in snowpersons armed with sharpened icicles, snowballs, and ice machines attacking the residentsand creating general havoc throughout the region; additionally, numerous ICCD's (Improvised Carrot and Coal Devices) have been discovered secreted in many of the local sleighs.

      Kringleberg National Guard spokeself Major Wolfgang Grinch, who recently returned from a deployment in the Bering Sea, issued the following statement: "The disruption caused by these 'crystalline persons of snowy heritage" will not be allowed to stand. We have assurances from both the North Pole Air Defense Forces, along with our allies from the Central Antarctic Air Attack Squadrons , that they are standing by to lend assistance in the form of deployable tanker aircraft loaded with salt water to allow us, in the instance these 'snowterrorists' decide to continue these illegal and anti-social activities, to undertake a "Melted Earth" strategy with regards to this demonic plague on all frigid states everywhere... We will cleanse the crevasses of these extremists, and drive these Frigi-jihadis from the icebergs and snowfields into the sea."

      Please stay tuned as this situation continues to heat up.


      .
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 1 month ago
        Wow! Is Rudolph in for a surprise!
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 7 years, 1 month ago
          This is a NEWS FLASH-FREEZE from CNN - Live from the under-ice igloo command post of the North Pole Air Defense Forces at Kringleberg...

          There have been late-breaking reports of an asleep-cell being activated among some of the Reindeer population in support of the Unconscionable activities of these Frozen Foes of Freedom. There are reports of "Reindeer Bombs" being found in front yards and on roofs of homes of good little children everywhere, allegedly left by these Demonic Deer... We advise all good boys and girls to shelter in place, and if they see anything unusual to contact the Kringleberg National Guard at 1-800 - MELTING to report these sightings.

          DO NOT approach any wildlife or suspected snow people, and above all, if you see anything moving or frozen, report it immediately.

          This is Lucy Van Pelt, Chilling News Network, reporting.
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          • Posted by conscious1978 7 years, 1 month ago
            (off camera Wolf Blitzen pulls Lucy aside...)
            "Lucy, we're gonna' need some spin...apparently the 'bombs' were Raisinets and chocolate Kisses. Authorities are questioning some guy named McManus and he keeps screaming, 'You can't eat sign!'"
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  • Posted by $ FredTheViking 7 years, 1 month ago
    This is an interesting question because it could be rephrased to the following:

    Let's say Tom builds a robot named Al. Al is programmed to be a conscience being like a human. One day Tom decides that he does not like Al and wants to reprogram him to be Sally. Al learns Tom wants to reprogram him. He runs to authorities and cries Murder. Tom claims Al is his property and he should be allowed to reprogram him.

    The question from Objectivist point of view who is right? Tom or Al. Base on which you chose here you could apply the same reasoning to the question.

    Personally I find it is a tough question and I need more think to about it.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 7 years, 1 month ago
      Or... Tom builds Al etc... but then, having achieved sapience, Al realized that instead of being "Al" he wants to be "Alice". Keep in mind that were it not for Tom, Al/Alice would not exist, and add to that, Tom realizes that as Alice his robot would not be suited to do the work he built it to. Yet the robot has achieved sapience - which is commonly considered one of the prime "tests of life"...

      Does Tom have the right to kill said robot to attempt to reprogram it, or does Al/Alice have the right to self-determination as a sapient being?

      It's not unlike the whole "to whom does the clone belong, and what rights does the clone have" debate... Or even though born as an elf, physically (perhaps genetically engineered) to be an elf, be a master toymaker, etc. by Santa, does Hermy have the right (or perhaps obligation) to tell Santa to stuff it in his sack and become a Dentist, or does Santa have the right, as Hermy's designer (or creator, certainly employer and perhaps owner) to either prohibit Hermy from becoming a dentist, or if he still insists on following this deviant path, destroy his sapient creation / serf / employee / property rather than let it continue to be "defective"...

      Happy Festivus!
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  • Posted by Wavewriter 7 years, 1 month ago
    One might be tempted to think this is a question of the prioritization of right to life vs right to property. One might even be tempted to invoke the right to Liberty upon potential assumption that Frosty (being "not fully man") might actually belong to the Magician, (as the hat was, in point of fact, the magician's hat at one time). However, possession being 9/10 of the law (under the "finders keepers" ruling est. 1492) , and with full knowledge that the hat itself has a prior history of being passed in ownership... from haberdasher to 2nd owner (whether this be magician or not is unclear)... but from the magician to the children is indeed clear then, subsequently, the children placed it on Frosty's head, another obvious transfer of ownership under the 9/10 possession provision (est. 1776). All observable. As such, one might infer that the hat must belong to Frosty under the related provision "all men are created equal" (est but simultaneously ignored 1776) AND this would include snowmen (questioned and denied under Dread Scott v Sanford 1857 and later established under The Civil Rights Act of 1866). IF the magician truly wants his hat back and wants to avoid further protest, incarceration, or extradition under current "law", his only potential legal recourse would likely require either (a) the need to lure Frosty to a non-Hague participating country with a warm perhaps tropical climate. or (b) find something of value that Frosty would take in trade. Of course, Frosty likely won't take anything in trade for his life giving hat, so it's likely that the magician will ultimately appeal to some non-Objectivist potentially violently oppressive group invoking the argument that "might makes right."

    All in all, I'd venture to say that the Objectivist thought favors Frosty and his rights to life, liberty, and property on this one.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 7 years, 1 month ago
      I also would favor Frosty once he is intelligent and can exist independently. The wizard will have to wait till he dies to claim his hat back.

      If a third party had stolen the hat the same holds true, but the thief still owes the wizard compensation.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 1 month ago
    Does the fact that Frosty is just going to melt away anyway factor into the decision? His usage of the hat is only temporary.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 1 month ago
      Objectively speaking Frosty is self-recycling having discovered there is ice after breath and next year's hat will be a new style.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 7 years, 1 month ago
        Are you going with the religious reincarnation argument? And does reincarnation negate the concern about Frosty's life?
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 1 month ago
          Not one speck that is so pure science is not even secular. Nothing but the facts Jax! Just think and reason. Frosty shows up every year AFTER million witnessed him or her melting. Since the hat was unaccounted for during 11months and three weeks it was either there the entire time or it's a new style from Barfwoof HeilMon perhaps. We're talking straight up corporatist secular statist here. It is not for us to say what idealistic fantasy conjured up the fantasy version but in the realm of science it's enough we are working tirelessly and with heft grants in hand to solve the the reincarnation theory or perhaps it's just a standard sperm and egg and sequence with or without groans and shrieks. Diffrerence for example as simply explained as field corn vs. pop pop poP Pop POP POP don't STOP! that really wants an interroBANG! None of which can be found in the vernacular or context of some two thousand fifteen years ago give or take. Finally with the socialist fascist grammasmear Nazis firmly in charge die es wagen Hocke zu interpretieren, ohne die Führers würde "Befolgen Sie mich oder ich werde dich SHOT oder hingerichtet haben 'Zustimmung?

          or if you prefer

          Knock Knock Knock "Komitet!"

          Наконец с социалистической фашистской грамматики мазка Politcal Комиссаров твердо отвечает, кто осмелится сделать вывод, приземистый без разрешения КГБ, не сталкиваясь долго наказание в колымских рудниках понять?

          Мы обслуживаем вечеринку!

          Dah Kamerad wir betreuen die Party!

          betreuen does not mean предать
          вечеринка!

          I found that hilariously funny....
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  • Posted by $ jlc 7 years, 1 month ago
    This discussion is combining two separate issues, and introducing a theory as a fact:
    1. Putting the hat on Frosty's head is what made him transition to an inorganic sentience. There is no indication that the had must remain on his head in order for him to continue in his aware state - that is a theory, not a fact.
    2. The possible transition from Frosty to Melty is a separate issue. It is not hat/lack of hat that is responsible for the phase transition of Frosty to Melty. Melty is produced by the possible senticide of Frosty by the Sun.

    There are some additional issues. I agree that the Magician's hat has passed through several hands/twigs and thus changed ownership. If the hat is capable of point-of-contact introduction of sentience into an inorganic creature, then a whole race of Frostys or Granitys or perhaps even Meltys could be possible. The Hat of Abiogenesis might be responsible for entire new races of various non-nucleic acid based life-forms.

    This is very exciting.

    Jan
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 7 years, 1 month ago
    This question opens some very real world issues. For example computer science is rapidly approaching the creation of a sentient, sapient, self aware computer. If this becomes reality should the computer entity have the same rights as its carbon based counterpart? How does the computers ability to perform tasks that humans cannot affect these rights? Is ownership of a self aware computer a form of slavery? Lots of questions that we may have to face sooner rather than later. Frosty and his magician creator or more real than we would like to accept.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 7 years, 1 month ago
    The magician participated in a pleasurable act and by injecting the hat into the process, created a living Frosty. The maximum lifespan of a snowman is from first snow to first thaw and short as it is, it is his natural life. If the magician had interrupted his act that would ultimately create a snowman, this abortion would be legal. After the fact, taking an action to eliminate the snowman is frostycide. The hat was given to frosty and cannot be taken back but may be willed to the magician, less an inheritance tax by the government upon the snowman's passing.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 7 years, 1 month ago
    Magician relinquished hat of his own free will. Too bad. It is now the property of Frosty, or Anyman.
    If he had given it to Goodwill, he would have to pay to get it back. That's how capitalism works.
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  • Posted by lamb 7 years, 1 month ago
    Without a doubt, one of the best discussions I have ever seen on a serious forum. While humorous...okay, hysterically funny to me...it does hit on various points concerning property rights, et al. A marvelous discussion and suitable for the season!
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 7 years, 1 month ago
    Uh, the rational answer is "Go away and come back when you have an actual ethical issue to discuss."
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 7 years, 1 month ago
      Thanks, sjatkins, and I've restored your point. While absurdity is sometimes acceptable in a reductio form in the name of humor, reality rules. The whole Frosty saga is fiction, make-believe. One who points out rationality is not a spoilsport, nor deserves a snippish demerit. Oh, yes, and Santa Claus is make-believe, too. Lying to children about that is not moral. Being jolly does not require folly. Happy winter solstice to you all.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 7 years, 1 month ago
        Huzzah Huzzah as a recent jazz trumpeter /singer would say...or sing....In support I have upped yours and upped SJAtkins to make the point that while learning is worth a point lack of humor is a subtraction ...Give it a try When I did yours it became two more. Miracles occur on more than 34th Street. I however have plenty and lose them on a regular basis...but not for lack of humor but in protest for such a requirement. Oh ye of little undersanding....Get the splinter out!
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 7 years, 1 month ago
    Actually, the Hat became the property of the city (Waste Management), when the Magician discarded it.

    Frosty is guilty of theft of city property...30 days in jail (poor Frosty...).

    The Magician is guilty of littering (1 day of community service...mopping up Frosty's cell).

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
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    • Posted by TheRealBill 7 years, 1 month ago
      We don't know he discarded it. It could have been blown off his head, porch, or the city garbage men were sloppy in emptying his refuse bin. Even so it doesn't become city property until the city claims it before someone else does.

      The children found it unattended and on non-private property. They were the "finders", not the city.
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  • Posted by $ Temlakos 7 years, 1 month ago
    You left out one character whose presence in the scenario makes all the difference: Santa Claus. Santa Claus agrees to take Frosty into his custody and remove him to an environment where he will never melt. He also is the source for all the magician's tools. So what he says, goes.

    Besides which, the magician, in a fit of pique, disposed of his hat. In such a case, finders are definitely keepers, and losers--not just losers but those who throw things away--are weepers.
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  • Posted by ChestyPuller 7 years, 1 month ago
    Since Frosty is not human and so is not an American Citizen he is not covered by the Declaration of Independence nor the U.S. Constitution and because he is not human by the Law of God he is under our control; so if the Magican wants his property back it is his to take...that is if he can catch frosty!
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  • -6
    Posted by james464 7 years, 1 month ago
    Sounds like the problem of whether the created has more rights than the Creator. I would argue that Objectivism cannot handle this problem because you cannot reason to absolutes with Objectivist philosophy.
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    • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years, 1 month ago
      It's not a "problem" because a core tenet of Objectivism is the primacy of existence over consciousness. There is no evidence of any "creator" preceding existence itself.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 1 month ago
      Dude, seriously, you're going to get permanently banned if you can't come up with a logical argument.

      Objectivism does deal in absolutes - in most things. You're welcome to disagree, but lay out your case in premises and conclusions - not accusations.
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