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  • Posted by MountainLady 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A child does not fully understand reason until about the age of seven. Theologians (and now psychologists) have long recognized this as the age of reason.

    How then do YOU define reason?
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Abstract thought and logical theory are not synonymous with reason. The first thing a new born baby does as begins to process what he perceives around him and tries to understand is to employ his power of reason.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, they do. It's important to point it out when the fallacies are promoted in the name of Ayn Rand's individualism.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You need a better understanding of honesty, objectivity and rationality versus embracing the neurotic as a philosophy of life in the name of science.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks, ewv. The essays on "Counterfeit Individualism" and "Isn't Everyone Selfish?" bear on some of the comments you received.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Very...Objectivism means what it says. However the topic is more than interesting. If you would care to rephrase using some recommended source I would be obliged. Some of us are closed objectivists and some open objectivists. Same basic rules apply. Thank you.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Astronomical is a the word of a mystic. Whatever the number it is astronomical relative to what? The reason identical teams are never exactly alike is because they are not identical. A lot of close calls but no evidence of identical yet exists. Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. The amount of 'almost had it by current definitions is far too many to be a phenomena.
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  • -1
    Posted by MountainLady 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You need a better understanding of human nature, i.e., psychology/neurology.

    Do you know of the psychological defense mechanisms known as rationalization and intellectualization?
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Glad I yielded to an urge to look back.
    MountainLady's reply about being an individual has been moved several replies above.
    I've seen my replies get shuffled around like that.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ah yes. But other wise it was a great comment!!! Something I've kept inside for far too long a great weight has lifted....that's what reason will do for you to my way of thinking. Due in no small way to the atmosphere in the Gulch!
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Paraphrasing Aristotle or Plato..no offense intended,thats how it was written in the notes I took.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't believe I mentioned the word 'soul.' The proper word however would be 'mind.' Example. A police officer arrives at the scene of a traffic accident. Two vehicles. In one is a dazed and apparently inebriated driver. In the other one dead infant plastered against the inside of the windshield and one injured driver presumably the parent. The immediate needs are many. Call for ambulances and a back up to help control traffic, a supervisor, and at some point a wrecker. All of that takes place without emotion including. checking the skid marks, the light bulbs headlights and turn signals and other physical evidence. the need for immediate first responder treatment each begging for immediate attention. In constant view is the infants body and a windshield covered in blood.

    The emotions rage to react..There is no time. Assistance arises a verbal report made. A traffic accident specialist arrives same thing. the ambulance takes the driver of #2 the victim's car away too the hospital where a BA blood alcohol is ordered as a matter of routine. The driver of #1 based on evidence is removed from the vehicle, handcuffed and placed in a patrol vehicle

    Photos are taken the whole system is in gear. The supervisor orders the responding officer to do ttwo things.

    Go behind a bush..... and then when ready go to the hospital to supervise the BA procedures.

    At that point emotion takes over....accompanied by vomiting....the mental image of the infant now being peeled off the inside of the windshield rules... For a few minutes. Then he states she was not wearing a belt, the child was not secured, they both need their rights read and proceeds to do that. Reason has taken control. The investigative procedure has turned into a double arrest. Who is ultimately responsible? That went to the court. Both were charged. The officer returns to the stations writes a report and asks for a ride home. Emotion has returned....but reason is still in control.

    The difference. Emotion is a body function, an automatic control mechanism....with time and experiences much the same it
    does a better job but then the officer is viewed as seasoned...and the vomiting takes longer to occur.

    High stress situations combine the two. But the situation...the ground truth test demands reason.

    Add a few additional elements such as a hostile crowd.... it's volatile. The only hope is reason.

    Add 'no witnesses, no one saw anything' adds frustration.

    Not a made up story....

    What saves the day for all concerned is proper training and constant preparation and testing of one's abilities. The autopilot function of the brain takes over. No one remembers writing down the time or any number of other key but small points.
    At least until after three or four of these situations. Paramedics and police face this sort of thing until it becomes routine an they try not to be calloused.

    The woman driver in #2 was not drunk. She had taken some medications that induced drowsiness and had a clearly labeled warning.

    She was still charged with reckless endangerment contributing to the death of her own child. i's dotted, t's crossed it went ot he court system and the jury, two lawyers, a judge and ... at least one psychiatrist. She later took some other medications..... too many of them. Some one elses turn

    That was decades ago - the images are gone. But not the memories. Those are part of the function of reason and no amount of wishful thinking or mystical experience will change what happened.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So you're saying that
    "A well ordered soul has the reason in charge of the passion."

    But
    "If the reason has charge of the passion then passions become trained and then when they are trained every good choice is an interplay of thinking and desiring and the whole soul comes together to produce it."

    Sorry, reading an annotated copy of the Federalist papers and this topic, which I found interesting, came up.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    and if I may bootstrap again...go to the animal shelter and find a new best friend. Another way of saying recognize, confront and control emotion. with reason. The dog as a best friend is a useful metaphor but I do not let it become a controlling reality. I am I. Dog was Dog. I hope this followed in order the previous comment.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Only if you follow it up with reason and enquire as to the the truth behind the emotion and then test that to see if reason can and is controlling emotion.

    My dog is my best frriend. My dog is faithful. I kinow that because of his actions. My dog dies, I am despondent.I am sad. I have lost my best friend. What are my actions. Perhaps a symbolic funeral in the back yard which serves to bury the past and my emotions then I look for a new best friend. OR I burn down the dog house and vow never to have another best friend again but mourn for the rest of my life. Reason controls emotion or emotion negates the use of reason.
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  • Posted by $ HeroWorship 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This may be semantics, but ... :-)

    In any particular moment, we feel whatever we feel. We can't change what we are feeling because we are already feeling it.

    However, we can certainly inquire into why we are feeling it - what do we believe to be true about the world such that we are feeling X in response to our understanding. Then, we can question that understanding and find a better understanding, one that is more true. Then, we will feel the feelings appropriate to that more truth.

    In the process, we reason through our emotions.

    Right?
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  • Posted by $ HeroWorship 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    True. It is impossible to throw everything out and start from scratch.

    However, it is possible to systematically challenge some core assumptions and build rational understanding based in reality. More importantly, it is possible to set this as a standard against which you will judge the status of any other thought/feeling.

    It is a reverse bootstrapping. We question the given/habitual/inherited values/desires we wake up with today. We interrogate them. We challenge them. We discover the premises on which they are built and check them (against our best rationality). We correct/adapt/evolve/transform/replace them with increasingly rational/beautiful ones.

    Then, we wake up tomorrow and inherit a different (more rational) set of thoughts/feelings values/desires.

    Rinse. Repeat. But only forever.

    At the bottom of this are basic desires - which are "prior" to our reason. They are our natural values - our values of human qua human. We don't choose those. We can (if we are rational/smart) choose to identify and integrate them into our value system and thereby integrate our desires and our value system - Reason.
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  • Posted by ewv 8 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    MountainLady : "If I learned one thing from Rand's fiction (which I read when I was 15), it is that your own individual reasoning ability (and value system, based on your emotions) are to guide your own life, not the views of any other person or people."

    You didn't learn that from Ayn Rand. Individual responsibility for reasoning in contrast to relying on other people yes, but not "value system based on emotions". Your emotions versus what others tell you is a false alternative. Proper values comes from reason and are objective. Pursuing values based on emotion is hedonism, not rational self interest. Personal subjectivism versus the collective subjective are both subjectivism.
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