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Giving Tuesday ?%!&

Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 2 months ago to Culture
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I have been solicited by both universities I attended, the university I am a professor at, and by the American Chemical Society for donations today.

What is going on with this proliferation of altruism?!*&! (in lieu of four-letter expletives)


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  • Posted by gaiagal 10 years, 2 months ago
    I set up a Giving Tuesday filter. All email to trash, all sites ignored.

    For awhile now, I've refused to purchase anything from a company which interjects social consciousness into their mission statement or their marketing campaigns.

    If each individual takes care of himself, his own and whomever he chooses, all will be well with the world. Social consciousness is a construct better taught within families then from external coercive elements.

    I donate anonymously. I was taught that when you give, you give - you get nothing in return. If you give with the expectation of a return, you are making a purchase.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      I do the same with companies that slather their offerings with popups and other bandwidth wasting crap especially those where they raided my private email to discern personal information one which to base their idiotic offerings.

      I would also liike to say a bad word about Cingular ATT, United Airlines, Joann's, Avast, Paypal/Ebay, Virgin Atlantic cell phone, and GMC. Most particularly about BankAmerica.....All made scum of the year award and I don't forget.....
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    • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
      "I was taught that when you give, you give - you get nothing in return." YES! If you get something in return then it's a business transaction.

      "refused to purchase anything from a company which interjects social consciousness into" And oh boy, it's getting harder and harder to find those that abstain.
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      • Posted by gaiagal 10 years, 2 months ago
        Sure is.

        Once I tried to purchase only things Made in America. Couldn't do it. Apparently nothing has been made in America since the early 80s.

        Soon it will be just as impossible to get away from the world saving sanctimonious sanctioning of those who choose the blue pill..and those who dole them out.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
          Especially now that the left wing cycle of economic repression has made it impossible for many to purchase anything that is made in country or to shop anywhere except Walmart and Dollar Stores. Welcome to fascist economics you voted for it - deal with it.

          Most of you can't find the center much left define the left nor the right with Clyde driving.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 2 months ago
    This really bothered me yesterday. What bothered me even more is that EFF and Pacific Legal Foundation, who should know better, were amongst the solicitors.

    I may give to organizations whose work I respect and want to support, but I'll be damned if I do so on "Giving Bloody Tuesday"!

    Jan
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  • Posted by LaMuse 10 years, 2 months ago
    The grocery store I frequent is constantly asking customers to "round up" for one worthy cause or another. Before the cashier can even say, "Would you like to.......?" I say a firm "No," smile, and remain pleasant throughout the transaction. Sometimes they are befuddled by my lack of guilty excuses as to why I won't donate. The last shakedown was for the worthy cause of "Helping to Feed the Hungry," this as I watched the multitude of obese people waddle through the store and hang over their scooters as they blocked the aisles. Other than this annoyance, I love this store.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      You might ask how is it possible in a nation that gives billions of dollars of food away all over the world and has a food bank on every corner for anyone to be hungry.

      Remind them you already gave back when you paid your taxes.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
    Solicitations? I am inundated with them. Every one of them is for a "worthy" cause. The most prolific are political, then comes veterans, then children, then first responders, and it goes on&on&on.Once upon a time, I socked away lotsa dough for retirement, even taking inflation into account. Everything got paid up. I was OK. But who could have predicted an economy ths out of control? The BW and I decided on two charities, on for her and one for me. That is it. You can solicit me until you turn blue, but as much as I'd like to contribute to many more, I'm not going to impoverish myself because I would honestly prefer death to welfare. This is the viewpoint of a refined and elderly gentleman and you younger folks better listen well to me or it'll be your asses hanging out in poverty.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 2 months ago
    Yeah, yesterday I read somewhere that it was "Giving Tuesday" and did nothing more than shrug.
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    • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
      "did nothing more than shrug," I love it! +1 real and +9 purely conceptual.

      I must have received at least 20 emails that contained #GivingTuesday in the subject or the body text. In preparation for next year I will create a filter that sends those directly to the trash.

      And I' so #sickandtired of seeing #hashtag in front of virtually everything these days that I'm seriously considering starting a #kickstartercampaign to #removehashtagfromthekeyboard. I think I might #loathe it as much as #lol.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 2 months ago
    On the news today - Zuckerberg is giving away 99% of his billions for various and sundry altruistic causes - I won't go into the litany, as the list is taken from the socialist's playbook. Dare not invest it in American industry, making our country great again, gotta appease the lefties.

    I wish I could say I am surprised... but considering the source... sadly, not.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      What was his tax write off for such a move and what is the mechanism for the great giveaway? Bill and Melinda Gates did the same thing. It's not all at once and it does come with huge tax write offs. When every one else had the purchasing power of their retirement slashed their foundation went from 40 billion to sunnside of 70 approaching 80 billion. Much of their donations go out of the country - altruistically.,

      What's his face from CNN Ted Turner did the same with 500 million to the UN. He's now the second largest private landowner in the country. How much property tax does he pay?

      Trump openly brags about buying and selling politicians especially congressionals. See him facing anyone's committee? His purchases stay purchased.

      The second round of the cycle of economic repression is in the start up phase. That's where the true costs of the first go round show up to collect on the debt and whose going to pay? Not the one's who operate the scam...you will when that chicken comes home to roost.

      Invest in America? For what purpose? Where is the value?

      Susanne please post that list... let's air all the dirty laundry.
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  • Posted by edweaver 10 years, 2 months ago
    Not a week goes by that I do not receive a request from someone for money. But I'm a business owner that is expected to give back due to all of my success. People simply do not understand that I stole nothing that I need to return. Creating a living for myself and my employees is not enough.
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  • Posted by broskjold22 10 years, 2 months ago
    Let's not pretend this movement and some others are all about giving. It's a sale, plain and simple. The sale is "peace of mind" (i.e. social approval) for performing an altruistic act (i.e. receiving no material benefit), not "giving". It's an anti-concept in that it does not link back to physical reality (again, receiving no material benefit).
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
      Then i get nothing in return as I do not seek nor require social approval but since, as I said, I'm fair minded if the country pays what it owes me I shall then think about considering giving back.

      Flash forward

      Hey the country ponied up and with interest!!! i thought about it as i promised....and gave back 46% of the total amount.

      What was the total?

      $200,000 but I gave $100,000 back up front and only took $100,000

      How much did you pay in taxes?

      $46 thousand.

      and the remaining $54,000.

      Next question???
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
    I will cheerfully and willingly consider 'Giving Back' when I am paid what I am owed including reneged benefits and retirement benefits with interest and with full adjustment for lost buying power and a two or more party system of government with free, open, and honest elections and what was the other thing...oh yes.. The Constitution. Especially if those requesting such are government, education,the media, glitterati and politicians.

    Until then ' Eat.....and bark at the moon' add to that M2F2U. The first two means squared.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 2 months ago
    I had forgotten the phrase "Giving Tuesday". At
    first, I thought the subject was about giving to
    education. If I think a cause is worthy enough
    (from an Objectivist perspective) then I might do-
    nate to it (if I could afford it).
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 2 months ago
    I don't know anything about the American Chemical
    Society, but I don't think I would donate to any
    college or university. I believe they are mainly a
    threat to freedom in this country. Maybe someday
    someone will start an Objectivist college or university, and maybe I would donate to that (if
    I am still around and have a job by then).
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      My university, Florida Tech, is not an Objectivist university, but the vast majority of my colleagues are here because we like an entrepeneurial, non-tenure-granting place.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
        Thinking about it I came back to your post. Did the dude from Bibit BB&T who left the bank and became a sower of Objective seeds in the education community happen to stop by your University a number of years ago? Name of Allison? The google sources show that number thus affected to be around 30 and he hangs in the south more than anywhere. Just wondered or if not how did yours get that way?
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    • Posted by blackswan 10 years, 2 months ago
      Check out Hillsdale College. They probably are what you're looking for.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
        Hillsdale doesn't take government dollars, but they are affiliated with a Christian denomination. They have both a major and a minor in Christian studies. This may be problematic for Objectivists.
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        • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 10 years, 2 months ago
          You know...I've heard that, a couple of times, about Hillsdale. Fact is, I never even realized their Christian associations, until somebody at Galt's Gulch brought it up.
          Hillsdale doesn't push their Christian leanings in any of their newsletters or requests for donations. I'm not sure that this should even be an issue, but I could be missing something.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
          why.. i sent my kid to a Catholic University after she pointed out the Jesuits were hard taskmasters and didn't hand out social promotions. She wanted something somebody that would train her mind to think and use reason and to excel in debate. She wanted a challenge. Her greatest thrill was beating one of the Priests in open debate. Magna Cum Laude (sp?) Their recommendation was she switch from medicine to law and instead she became a pshrink. One day she said I 've found a side line t study called Objectivism and another remembered you mentioned it one time along with moral philosophy. I pointed at my book shelves and when she left they were empty starting with Atlas Shrugged. She says the liberals think I'm one of them and the conservatives think I'm one of them but when the debates in class start...both are sitting ducks.

          I'm still catching up... she's now working with anorexia and bulemia and young children who are propagandized into those conditions by society. i've often thought 'should become a lawyer? What a waste that would have been."

          Point is there are exceptions to the any rule or any bias. Hillsdale's habit of not accepting government funds is a good indicator they ought to be examined and considered after all how many similar choices are their. it's your kids and grand kids, which way would you choose:?
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
            I am not opposed to education either at a Protestant Christian university like Hillsdale or at some Catholic universities. Some Catholic universities have been infected with liberalism, particularly Georgetown. I am willing to be in the arena of ideas with non-Objectivists. Some would prefer to isolate themselves only with Objectivists. There is a benefit to being only with likeminded individuals. I know that I have vetted my own way of life and philosophy to the point where I am not scared of what anyone else thinks.

            As for my kids and grandkids, I will encourage them to come to my university. One of my children is there now, with almost no prodding whatsoever. She came to that conclusion largely on her own. As for my other daughter, she will attend the university of her choosing. As Rand correctly observed, one must come to one's conclusions on his/her own.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 2 months ago
              I reckon I'm one of the open objectivists then. I see it as a tool and a damn good one but i'm not becoming a cloistered objectivist and eventually it gets tedious and boring. Use the senses and the reasoning, examine whatever is on the table, if it works fine if it doesn't work fine OR reason out how to make something work. Somethings never work so why bother...Like hoping Republicans [politicians are going to change....they aren't.
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  • Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
    Give or not give...your choice.

    On another note, altruism is the greatest form of the worship of secular humanism since if it isn't in the worship of God, is has to be in worship of man.

    Next time they ask for something, ask them, "Why?" I hear the message to give, give, give and never hear the reason why. I guess they figure it is self-evident, to which I say, "So is God."
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    • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
      jbrenner was generous; I did downvote you. You wrote, "On another note, altruism is the greatest form of the worship of secular humanism since if it isn't in the worship of God, is has to be in worship of man."

      I proclaim that a humongous load of bullshit. First, "if it isn't in the worship of God, is has to be in worship of man." No, I don't worship anything. I place my mind and rational thought at or near the top of my hierarchy of values, but I don't worship them. The word worship itself implies the believe in mysticism, which Objectivists are not allowed, by definition.

      Then, "... altruism is the greatest form of the worship of secular humanism..."? What kind of hogwash is that? Secular humanism and altruism couldn't possibly any more unrelated to each other than they already are. In fact, I would say that religion is the greatest proponent of altruism. Christianity clearly promotes taking care of others as one of man's highest purposes - especially if he gives away everything he has.

      But your claim that the existence of a mystical uberbeing is self-evident is so far beyond bullshit that the word that adequately describes the sentiment has yet to be invented. I have two arms and two legs; that is self-evident. I have never, ever seen the tiniest sliver of evidence to support the existence of your mystic uberbeing.

      Just in case you want to counter with silly questions like, "Well, how did X happen or where did Y come from," I'll gladly say, "I don't know but our knowledge of the universe grows every day and eventually we will know."
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      • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 2 months ago
        I agree with you in all of the points that you made, Timelord. I consider altruism (small "a" altruism, not the technical philosophy) to be voluntary and whimsical; the idea of 'the worship of man' is baffling to me - I am hoping that society will eventually get past the point where it needs to worship anything. If someone wants to worship a deity, that is their business, but I do not worship 'worship'.

        Were a mystical deity self-evident, then a lot of us who meet the definition of 'self' would not have thought it obvious that such a critter was unnecessary. And I agree, in spades, that we are in the process of scientifically answering the questions that made the postulation of a creator-deity necessary to former ages. We do not have all of the answers yet, but we now know that the issues are knowable.

        I pointed james464 back up because his reply politely stated his viewpoint.

        Jan
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        • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
          Hello Jan! I don't upvote/downvote for manners but rather on the position being taken, the content of the post. I agree that his response was tonally appropriate but still philosophically incorrect.

          I also admit that my use of the word bullshit was overly aggressive. I invite people to substitute a more polite word; editing period has ended. Believers making silly statements as though they're factual is one of my triggers. Maybe someday I'll overcome it, if I ever convince myself that I should!
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          • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 2 months ago
            Hah! I did not really even notice the "bullshit". Oh dear...that is supposed to be a Bad Word, isn't it. (I was just commenting in general.)

            I expect people to have strong opinions in the Gulch. Some of those opinions will be far different from mine; a subset of those may change my views and inform my future perspectives.

            You will certainly up/down vote according to your own parameters. I, by mine.

            Jan, has her own triggers
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            • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
              List of things Jan's triggers are connected to:
              .44 magnum
              .357 magnum
              9mm Luger
              .45 acp
              12 guage side-by-side

              Am I close?
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              • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 2 months ago
                Sigh. Whine. I wish.

                My father gave away his Lugar - from WWII.

                Jan
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                • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
                  Gave away his WWII Luger?! That was very nearly criminal. I have one of those guns. In the early 70's my mom bought it from a neighbor for my dad's birthday. I can't conceive of her ever buying a gun! The neighbor had removed it from the possession of a German officer during the war. All original, serial #s on the gun frame and magazine match. Extra magazine and a small tool all in the original leather holster with buckle-down flap.

                  It's in great shape and I shoot it from time to time. It stovepipes a round once in a while but I always attributed that to the ammo. That gun is a work of art, beautiful to look at and incredibly comfortable to hold.
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        • Posted by gaiagal 10 years, 2 months ago
          Jan, I understand what James464 is saying and I pointed him up also. I did so because he's expressing another perspective arriving at the same conclusion, which always interests me.

          I never knew anyone thought of donations as a form of worship. I know that charity and tithing are expected, but I never thought of it as a form of worship.

          I believe that the act of giving is personal and private and shouldn't be co-opted as a marketing tool for businesses or political agendas.

          I do like the idea of giving as something whimsical - I never realized that I sometimes give on a whimsy. It's what I did yesterday when I dropped a Silver Eagle in a tip jar - when no one was looking. The staff and owner at this diner are very special. It was only later that I realized - how the heck are they going to divide that up? Oh well.
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          • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
            Yes, division of the silver eagle will be problematic, but I'd worry more that they don't recognize what it is! A silver eagle certainly stands out more than "junk silver" coins, but harken to my tale...

            A woman at my workplace was trying to buy a drink from the Coke machine with a silver quarter. The machine wouldn't accept it. I recognized it right away and said, "the machine doesn't recognize that old silver quarter as a real quarter (backwards, right?!). Let me go back to my desk and I'll give you a dollar bill for your silver quarter." I was shortchanging her. Her response, "Just give me a quarter, that's what I need." I had one in my pocket and made a hefty profit (percentage-wise).

            If I were you I'd worry that they'd deposit it in the bank and get face value for it! I hope I didn't spoil your day!
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            • Posted by gaiagal 10 years, 2 months ago
              Not at all.

              It definitely occurred to me that they may not recognize it...but the owner is a savvy guy. If he does recognize the coin, I hope he threw in the spot value...and kept the coin for himself.

              Actually, any scenario I came up with, amused me. Someone will benefit (hopefully not the bank :)

              Why didn't you tell that woman what her "silver quarter" actually was? We definitely differ on how the situation you described should be handled. I would have gotten more of a kick out of telling her. Also, It wouldn't have occurred to me to take advantage of her lack of knowledge! Blame it on the mother in me ...but shame on you (a tsking finger emoji needed here)
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              • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
                I did explain to her what the silver quarter was and told her it was worth much more than a quarter. She was only interested in getting a soda out of the machine.

                I didn't bother to include that detail in my tale.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
        Being generous is a fault that I am working toward correcting. ;)
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        • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
          There is nothing wrong with generosity so long as it can be easily afforded.
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          • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
            Cracking a joke, jbrenner was!

            But if you want to bring down the entire room by being all serious, there's nothing wrong with generosity even if you can't afford it if, in your own hierarchy of values, your own comfort is less important than the benefit to another. Objectivism doesn't disapprove of generosity or even charity. There is a difference between charity and alms, generosity and self-sacrifice.

            Forgive me for not remembering the characters' names or for muddling the details, but recall the young woman in Atlas Shrugged who worked at a job helping the less fortunate. She did it because she loved the work and it had meaning for her. Rand wrote her as a sympathetic character, one of life's everyday heroes. The young woman's father berated her for enjoying her work and claimed that she was being immoral unless she felt an obligation to help those beneath her, insisting that she must become a sacrificial piece of meat, or otherwise her work was meaningless. She was being unforgivably selfish if she enjoyed it. If I remember correctly that poor woman was destroyed by guilt and wasted away.

            This doesn't apply to Gulchers, but I get so aggravated when people out in the world accuse Objectivism of being cruel and selfish (the modern usage) and Darwinian. That's a sentiment expressed by someone who hasn't read or hasn't understood Rand's novels. She has many characters performing mundane tasks to the very best of their ability, and she is specifically pointing out how valuable they are and how they are heroic in their way. You don't have to be Dagny Taggart or Hank Rearden to be held in esteem.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
              Your last paragraph is a bullseye! People are so inculcated with the "beauty" of Altruism that anytime you tell them stop and think about what they are actually doing and its consequences, they immediately rename you Ebenezer. (By the way, I got Brenner. )
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      • Posted by Henhouse1 10 years, 2 months ago
        You stole my thoughts, completely. I just love it when posters give me an either/or choice. Neither of which I agree with. I salute your clarion call of Bullshit!
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      • -2
        Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
        I would argue your definition of worship is too narrow and fallacious. If you are not willing to change it to a more macro denotation, then there is nowhere to take the discussion.

        "Eventually we will know" Sounds like a faith statement.
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        • Posted by Timelord 10 years, 2 months ago
          You can broaden your definition of worship as much as you like, but you're the one who directly compared worshiping god to worshiping man: "if it isn't in the worship of God, is has to be in worship of man". My response used the definition of worship that you chose, not one I made up. BTW, unless one is engaging in hyperbole (e.g. I worship the ground that Meryl Streep walks on.) then worship denotes a religious, or mystical, activity.

          My claim that "eventually we will know" couldn't possibly be any further removed from a statement of faith. I based that statement on the stupendous progress man has already made in understanding the universe, and the rate at which breakthroughs are achieved in virtually every field is accelerating. I can buy a 3 1/2" form-factor hard drive today that's filled with helium instead of air and uses shingled, perpendicular recording THAT CAN STORE 10TB of data. 5 years ago it was a theory that IBM hoped to test very soon. A couple of years ago I did a calculation that compared the cost/MB for a 5MB hard drive in an IBM PC model B circa 1983(ish) versus a 3TB modern hard drive that I had just bought for $99.00. If a person in 1983(ish) wanted to buy enough 5MB hard drives to store 3TB of data it would have cost millions of dollars. Sorry I can't be more specific but I don't recall the exact number.

          The technological advancements that allowed me to purchase 3TB of storage for $99 instead of $1M+ only 30 years ago is astounding. I feel completely comfortable claiming that "eventually we will know."

          Your claim that "eventually we will know" is a statement of faith is nearly identical to the statement so often made by believers to atheists, "You accuse me of being irrational for having faith in god when your claim that there is no god is based completely on faith!"

          Only a liar or an imbecile would ever say that. An atheist's conviction that there is no god is based on a complete lack of objective evidence for such a being. You cannot point to a single piece of physical evidence that shows that god exists. No, pointing to a woman giving birth and saying 'There's god for you' is not acceptable. All I see is an everyday, naturally occurring phenomenon.

          You wrote further down that, "Math isn't my problem, it is Objectivist logic." If you have read any of Ayn Rand's non-fiction and were unable to follow her line of reasoning then I feel sorry for you. Her starting conditions and subsequent explanations of Objectivism and its requirement for rational, objective thought are clear - although I'll admit that one or more books are quite academic and require some work to get through. If you don't understand Objectivist logic then I propose that you don't understand any logic.

          That statement also makes me wonder why you are here. You're not going to talk any of we atheists into being believers and none of us will waste our time trying to talk you out of believing in mysticism. What did you hope to accomplish? If you wanted to learn about Objectivism (good for you) then your admission that logic escapes you has shown that you are unable to learn about Objectivism.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
      I did not downvote you, but a central tenet of Rand's philosophy is that altruism is a self-sacrifice to the benefit of those who do not embody productivity.
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      • Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
        Honestly, I am not here for votes, but thanks for letting me know.

        The error in her definition or view of altruism is that altruism is the choice of the one providing, not the one receiving, although the one receiving could reject what is offered. My point is the one receiving may or may not be productive, but I guess that would just be called giving vs a subset thereof.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
          After having had several charitable organizations snub their collective noses at my donations over the last several years, I have learned my lessons about such charities. My charitable donations now are only for equipment that my students refurbish to further our joint research and development interests. By having a personal control over what the money is used for, I see that my self-interest is maintained, that it is not a self-sacrifice, and that the virtue of production is upheld.
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          • Posted by JCLanier 10 years, 2 months ago
            I fully agree with you JB.
            If 90 cents to the dollar donated goes to Administrative costs... then your "10 cents worth" is worth a little more than nothing.
            I'd rather donate for your student's classroom equipment and know that the full amount is being justly employed.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
              I'll gladly take your money, but only if I can trade you something for it. Perhaps some sort of materials or chemistry analytical work? Or perhaps for some refurbished or even unrefurbished equipment?
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              • Posted by JCLanier 10 years, 2 months ago
                JB: I'll check back with you after the holidays to see what you have to trade. Meanwhile, if you have any suggestions send them to me.
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 2 months ago
                  If anyone needs valves, pressure transducers, mass flow controllers, thermocouples, vacuum gauges, Unistrut, etc., or perhaps even chromatography equipment, then contact me. If you need electron microscopy done, I am your guy. I can PM anyone who responds to this message.
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          • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 2 months ago
            you are building instead of shoring-up, which is the essence
            of the capitalism which makes the world better for all of us,
            even the "unlucky." . Smart Man, Sir & Thanks! -- j
            .
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          • -2
            Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
            I agree that if you are aware that an organization isn't using the funds for what they appear to be using it for, it is time to move on; however, if they are using it for what they should be, then all should be good (as intended, nor morally good since Objectivists cannot have true morals).

            From where I sit and believe, I do not discuss where I give to and how much as it is between me and my Creator.
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        • Posted by $ Snezzy 10 years, 2 months ago
          Check your altruistic premises! Altruism encompasses not only the benevolent wish to help others but the moral imperative that you must do so. Who is the better man, the one who (A) takes care of himself, or the one who (B) lies down and dies so that others may live? If the latter, then isn't the man who forces others into choice B even better?
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          • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 2 months ago
            Yes. I was incorrect in thinking that the technical definition of altruism included volition. I now divide 'small "a" altruism' from 'capital "A" Altruism". The common use of the term, small "a" includes the assumption of a voluntary nature. But I now accept that the technical definition of Altruism is that it is non-volitional. (Ewwww!)

            I just wanted to direct your attention to the fact that in common everyday use, the definition of the term has shifted.

            Jan, looked it up in lots of places
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            • Posted by $ Snezzy 10 years, 2 months ago
              Shooting from between my ears (without looking stuff up) I would guess that it gained the small-a meaning by becoming accepted. With a capital A it's been helpful to the Progressive or Fabian program as a means for destroying the American virtue of individualism.

              Named or not, with a small or large A, it is found throughout civilizations and is used as a method of control. It's in the Bible, in Plato, and in nearly all mystical thought.

              There seems to be a lot more to the 20th-century push for socialism on two fronts. My wife has been researching the biography of Karl Marx and has noticed that he was closely connected to powerful people and that the Fabian Society was founded in 1884, less than a year after his 1883 death. More to come, eventually.
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          • Posted by $ CBJ 10 years, 2 months ago
            I'm not altruistic, but I hereby volunteer to be one of the "others" in order to help altruists fulfill their duty. I realize it's a big sacrifice on my part, but someone has to do it! :-)
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            • Posted by $ Snezzy 10 years, 2 months ago
              Yes, this is part of a silly answer to altruism.
              "If we are here to help others, then what are the others here for?"

              The silly reply to that statement is (of course) "They're here for dinner. Now go and feed them!"

              I'm hungry--I hereby volunteer to help CBJ.
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        • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
          By the way, points, schmoints, I participate because I enjoy it. Just think, interacting with Objectivists and incipient Objectivists. It was dry as a desert out there for a while.
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          • Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
            Yeah, if I were here for points, I would be long gone by now. I am like at negative 50 to the power of 10
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            • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
              Don't confuse me with math. (LOL?)
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              • -4
                Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
                Math isn't my problem, it is Objectivist logic.
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                • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
                  Explain.
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                  • -3
                    Posted by james464 10 years, 2 months ago
                    Objectivist logic is flawed from the perspective of first principles and presuppositions because it relies on reason as the ultimate means for man to determine reality. This is entirely subjective because you cannot reason to fundamental absolutes such as are we here by purpose or accident. I believe a philosophy that says "existence exists" has holes in the bottom of the pale where it contains all its principles and corollaries and postulates and theories, etc....
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 2 months ago
                      It seems to me you are saying we cannot use reason until we know everything. That is a problem in the realm of epistemology which remains open-ended until such time as we do know everything. But failure to know-all does not preclude one's ability to use reason particularly because of the very statement that you make. What do you propose instead?
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