Actually Nick the gov't is not allowed to tax your 'earned income' by any means other then by apportionment; ie: $1 from Bill Gates $1 from Nick.
It has been that way since 1792 w/ a brief unconstitiutional time from 1861 to 1865. The Federal knows this...I thing that is why they all want to pass a flat tax; IT IS THE WAY TO GET AMERICANS TO REPEAL THE APPORTIONMENT PORTION of the US Constitution which they have NEVER been able to do before. You see Nick et al. we have been tricked since 1939 to voluntarilly put our 'earned' into the category of 'unearned' by way of filling out the W4 [in 1935 they started with the Social Security tax paperwork]. You may think it mandatory & you do from your post. BUT IT IS NOT!

Now I know you will raise the false flag of:
"the 16th Amendment"
but as all good Con's go you have been duped.

You see SCOTUS as answered that false statement over 28 times the last in I believe 2008, most beginning in 1913; from the Brushaber v Union Pacific Railroad Case of 1916 [when SCOTUS tried of having to repeat themselves over and over again]:
“…the CONFUSION is not inherent, but rather ARISES FROM THE CONCLUSION THAT THE 16th AMENDMENT PROVIDES for a hitherto UNKNOWN POWER OF TAXATION -- that is, A POWER TO LEVY AN INCOME TAX which, ALTHOUGH DIRECT, should NOT SUBJECT TO THE REGULATION OF APPORTIONMENT applicable to all other direct taxes. And the far-reaching effect of THIS ERRONEOUS ASSUMPTION WILL BE MADE CLEAR by generalizing the many contentions advanced in argument to support it, as follows: (a) The Amendment authorizes only a particular character of direct tax without apportionment, and therefore if a tax is levied under its assumed authority which does not partake of the characteristics exacted by the Amendment, it is outside of the Amendment, and is void as a direct tax in the general constitutional sense because not apportioned. (b) As the Amendment authorizes a tax only upon incomes "from whatever source derived," the exclusion from taxation of some income of designated persons and classes is not authorized, and hence the constitutionality of the law must be tested by the general provisions of the Constitution as to taxation, and thus again the tax is void for want of apportionment. (c) As the right to tax "incomes from whatever source derived" for which the Amendment provides must be considered as exacting intrinsic uniformity, therefore no tax comes under the authority of the Amendment not conforming to such standard,"

It is long winded but percise...

Yes Nick et al. it is shocking but true!

How it's perpetrated is by fear. The 'IRS' a gov't agency much like the Fed Res, Dept of Edu, Osha, the EPA get's to omit things in verbal communication, they assign a 'withholding agent' in non public businesses [non gov't] and they tell this person that everyone MUST GET W4 & Social Security [FICA] paperwork, if they do not the agent can be jailed and or fined! This person believes that you must fill them out, [doesn't say that anywhere], also the documents only pertain to taxpayers not non-taxpayers so they do not have to spell non-taxpayer information out.

Once you fill it out you are locked in [post 2007] because in 1939 there was created a regulation to opt out after the 'war' if you wanted too. They never printed this as an offical document and until 2007 you could just write it out and submit it, but alas in 2007 the IRS decided it would NO LONGER EXCEPT ANY DOCUMENTS OTHER THEN OFFICAL DOCUMENTS PRINTED BY THE IRS. No document no opt out after signing!

Now Companies have been threatened with 'possible' auditing if they push the issue...so you as an American Citizen are all alone against the Fed Gov't on your taxes being illegally or falsely taken.

But at least now you know the truth!

Gary I wasn't talking your pension I was talking in general...to discuss your pension I would have to see it & our discussion would be legally binding...I'm not interested in that. I was trying to give you knowledge to help you answer your question...that is all

But Social Security is optional from its inception through today...they just don't make it public knowledge, which I think is lying...but, not legally.

YOU didn't set up the SS system. GOVERNMENT set it up. YOUR money was taken from you, sent to DC, and you had government dictate when you could have it. YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. GOVERNMENT was in the wrong to write a program that was not financially wise.

"Winding Down" seems no longer in the picture. What should happen is flat shutdown NOW, with all residual SS monies being refunded to their rightful senior owners. But of course our Rulers have already spend our money, so good luck with that one!

I am among the seniors on SS, and it's the only income I have, so of course this is a huge problem for me. But I fully expect that the Great Global Collapse will put our Rulership out of business, at which time there will be no "money", no checks nor anybody being paid to tend to such matters anyway.

That's not only SS, but everything. E.G my lady-partner gets a smaller SS plus a larger draw from from her deceased hubby's Federal Retirement. That will also be unpaid, leaving us with no income whatsoever.

I suppose it will matter less as hyperinflation will quickly wipe out the dollar anyway. We don't hold much in dollars, but have some meager junk silver on hand. It will be that and hopefully we can manage to barter while a better and voluntary system evolves. Now our age 77, it won't be easy, but our end is nearing anyway, but starvation is not a nice way to go!

I wish you lived in my neighborhood! My husband isn't much for doing things around the house but he cooks a mean meal.

The Gulch was created for producers therefore I think you should re-think about whether you would be welcome. There is a problem in the Gulch in that no one seems to get old or have an on-going health problem. What is to be done with these folks? Are they to be piled on the scrap heap of history or are they allowed to stay in the Gulch as long as they can pay their own way? Since you have a SS check and a state pension they would both be worthless in the Gulch since those checks are a result of outright thievery by the government of the people. Unless you could bring gold to the Gulch your check or Dollars would be worthless. You would need to come to the Gulch with a job in mind otherwise I suggest that you stay at home.

Hi Gary, I am 57 and will work until I fall over. Can't afford to stop, and actually like my job. Lucky my employer has no max age, so as long as I can totter around and not screw up too much, I get to paly. Gets harder every year working nights, driving 62 miles each way, but... Be welcomed. I get yelled at a lot, as I am not the most philosophical person around, I just knew from Atlas Shrugged that Ayn Rand had the right idea of just how bad things were going to get, and why, and it codified a lot of what I had been feeling over 20 years.

I'm with you dino, if someone is going to stick their hand in my pocket, then damn well put something back. The irrition comes from it not just being SS but all the other crap they take. I just pulled my property taxes and they have gone up for 20 years and the idiots still need "special" levies for everything from cops to toilet paper. It's not just SS thats a scam, the whole system is broke. But we here know that...

Actually that was a well reasoned argument in favor of tossing it, however, the political power to do that is non-existent. The senior voting block is one of the largest single issue power houses there is an no politico will even mention how bad SS is, let alone try to fix it.

Chesty, not to be contrary, but I do not have the option, and never had, to not let them take my money, it has always been that way since I started working in a bakery at age 13. I do not think business has a choice either, and most people do not realize that 50% of their SS money came from their employers. The only reason I know of that anyone was exempted, was the Railroad unions who negotiated their own form of it with FDR's cabal. Other than that, any group exempted has done so through nefarious political and financial contributing. The end result of all that shenannigans is we have states with "exempt" groups (as in PERS in Oregon), that cannot support themselves, and so they tax the crap out of me through various sleazy tricks such as property tax, income tax, etc tax, and then funnel it into these systems that provide benefits that are unsustainable, and funded through our backsides. If SS is the law of the land, it should apply to everyone, regardless of work, from President Obobo to the Taco Bell folks. All income should be retained for paying future payouts and not given to the Fed (anything over what they payout is given to the Feds and then replaced with paper IOU bonds). If SS is a con, then it is either eliminated, or imposed on everyone. The current situation is one effect of all the exemptions and special cases, which cause it to be a con. Nothing is as irritating as having retirement systems foisted on us by politicos to garner votes, and then get backdoor funding off my a@#.

You may have lost some of that $3X? during the crash of 2008 and I know an old car insurance agent who seriously did out of his 41K.
Still, I'm not defending SS for taking money out of anyone's paycheck.
SS took $ out of each and every one of mine and I want my freaking payback.
I'm due my freaking payback until the day I die.
There is a big difference between my paid all my working life entitled and the "entitled" gimmes gimmes imagined by some wetback Senor El Moochardo.
But you know that.
(That's for other readers who may come along).

"Besides Midas would never sell to a freeloader;)"
I wonder if for a Gulch-like society to work it would require someone who acts as a benevolent dictator at measuring whether people mean the oath.

" The Gulch may be an imaginary place but I have been living in it almost all of my life. I have never felt an hour of my free time was worth any more than an hour of another's."
The existential worth of time may be the same, but if someone can create something that solves many problems or gets people things they want, they're obviously going to earn more money.

What I hate about social security is that I was forced to be in the program. It's a fact (I read it someplace) that if I had been able to invest my social security money myself that I could probably have made three times more than what I am getting. It's not the taking of the monthly check, that's the problem, it's being told by the government that you have be in one of the largest pyramid schemes for all times. You, Ayn Rand, and the people in the Gulch are "the berries." You help keep me sane.

Long ago I had a top young attorney. Back then his charges made sense, nothing near $300/hour. I paid him by building him a couple of bookcases the first time, then a few years later he traded his services bill for a good big cement mixer, and asked if he could leave it at my biz for a while. Somebody then stole the mixer and lawyer said "forget it -- you weren't responsible..." and there was no bill.
I did like your offer of $300/hour -- and you made a great point@

Some would welcome you with open arms. Some would say you are non-worthy. I, being kindred with you, welcome you, IF you can accept the oath, and being not a moocher, but a producer.

I was a blatant communistic socialist - none more red than I - AND my lifelong career was that of a civil servant, some benign, some... not... yet somehow something directed me to read AS and from there I realized my life - my beliefs, my hatred for freedom, for theism, for liberty - was but a sham. Did I give up my civil service career, or disavow the ones before? Absolutely not. But I did subsequently approach it not from a civil servant moocher and looter perspective but a producer's perspective, and it changed my life. I expect to retire (finally!) and retrieve my investment into the various companies I was part and parcel thereof, but having been reborn, I realize that only by producing, by contributing my value for equal value, do I feel, indeed, complete. Beause I am seriously and severely addicted to being a producer.

The hardest part is some of my former "dotgov" skills don't mesh seamlessly with the "civillian"world, but I still have the credo "no job too small or insignificant, and no work to meaningless to not call worthwile Work". But yet... here I am, and as a producer, here I remain.

If you fit here... then welcome!!

I am also about to turn 64, but nowhere's near retirement. At one time I looked forward to a time when I could do what I wanted, when I wanted but I have found myself engulfed in skill I didn't know I had and It very well might have been my true essence all along. I have become a writer/researcher and a soon to be teacher.

I read your commentary and thought...what is that you do, which might take a team of horses to drag you from...to do something you regularly and usually enjoy doing. Note:...that just might be what Neothink calls: one's Friday night essence.

I believe a lot of the confusion about-can I receive SS and still be true to an Objectivist standard is the fact SS has become a much maligned political football .If one were to restate the question like this--" For the last 44 years of my working life the looters have confiscated from my paycheck a certain amount of money and allegedly put it back for my old age..... is it all right for me to take SOME of it back on a regular basis? I think the answer is obviously-yes .I don't see a lot of moral difference in taking back my OWN money or shrugging and going on strike.
Here's where the left has broadened their tent by trying to include hard working, tax paying workers into the same class as welfare cheats, looters and moochers. Maybe I'm wrong here but I see AARP as very left leaning. Now literally how can an association of "retired persons" self identify with the moochers.
The problem is SS by it's very definition needs overhauled beyond recognition. I don't like it-but I've been forced into it with my previous 1,144 paychecks. Value for value? Ragnar did not take anything from the RIGHTFUL OWNERS. I say emulate Ragnar and take your stuff back......
If I pay my car insurance faithfully then get t-boned, should I feel bad when the insurance check takes care of the repair. No. And BTW- the looters in my state have made it mandatory to have car insurance. Big brother just keeps getting bigger-for now

Several Gulchers, in the book, were retired and merely living on their savings. Working outside the home was optional, unless you needed to work to survive.
Saying that, recall that only gold and silver were accepted (though platinum would work, I'm sure). "Government Money", such as cash from the Federal Reserve and government pensions were worthless as they had no base on which to form a value. If a true "Galt's Gulch" were to follow the idea in the book, a prospective "citizen" would need to convert all of their assets into silver and gold or some other precious metal (I'm not sure about gems, artwork, etc.).
Since you are existing on a government pension, considering that the government could change or remove its value at any time, I wouldn't think that a Gulch citizenship would work out (again, if going solely by the book's scenario. A "real" Galt's Gulch might have different rules, though I don't see how they could make that work, as it would be facing the same problems as the fictional Gulch.

I, like many others here had to learn to deal with the set of rules and circumstances presented to me when I got out of the USN. I did some college and got a job and just carried on as I always have. I have no guilt for what directions my life has led me through. I do have friends who have done much better but I honestly can't say they are all that much happier than we are. I remember as a kid I could fix a pals motorcycle while he raked the leaves in my yard that was a job I hated then and still do. The Gulch may be an imaginary place but I have been living in it almost all of my life. I have never felt an hour of my free time was worth any more than an hour of another's.
A while back I had to hire a lawyer who charged me $300/ hour on a real estate deal that went bad. He wanted me to do some cabinetry work in his new home because he saw my work and liked it a lot. I gave him my price, $300/hour. I did not get that job but he got the message. I even offered him the use of my tools, saws and shop to do it himself but he valued his fingers more than mine.

That is also true. And I've been advocating for years that the scheme be wound down ASAP, while it's still possible to pay people most of what they were promised, or at least give them their money back. Because like any Ponzi scheme, it will eventually collapse.

And of course the federal government has no power to be distributing welfare at all outside of DC.

If there is to actually BE a Gulch, it will be we sovereigns upon our own properties, at times expanded to include neighbors who hold the same principles. We simply refuse the extortion of our Rulers and take responsibility for ourselves. Sounds to me as if GaryL has also made his own Gulch! All of function as best we can considering how desperately the proponents of Force seek to negate all that.

I beg to differ. Just today came
https://mises.org/library/social-secu...
SS is little but another Ponzi scam, manipulated at will by the proponents of Force. They, as usual, steal the fruits of our labor, take their cut off the top, and redistribute a variable portion based the their concept of "need".

First, thank you for your service. Next, thank you for doing a tough, mostly thankless but very necessary job.