The Roman philosopher Cicero was the first to make a succinct argument for fundamental rights. His position was that there were innate human actions that could only be prevented by interference from an outside force, and were therefore an inalienable part of our makeup For instance, nothing prevents us physically from saying anything we want, so our speech is inherently "free". All life forms seek to survive, and we have the ability, barring external constraint, to defend ourselves from threat, so the self defense element is also an inherent characteristic. Cicero maintained that these and other human activities are what make us free beings, and therefore should be regarded as "rights", the violation of which degrades our humanity.
Actually, it is a premise that CANNOT be proved, nor is it correct; as in a 'law of nature', nor is the premise even as strong as a 'law of economics'. What it is, it is a supposition that allows men of good conscious to maintain an orderly society; and, in the worst case to prevent lesser men from destroying the society so formed.
Simply put if my 'rights' were truly incapable of being suppressed then I could violate the rights of others with impunity.
What the supposition seeks to impose is the premise that there are 'fundamental' rights that cannot be abridged without causing an inherent state of discontent among the people whose rights are so impinged.
And that returns us to the circular argument that it is as wrong to impose a set of restrictions on another individual, as it is to allow another to impose restrictions upon ourselves! It is in our nature to resist.
Posted by ewv 8 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
Nature isn't "concerned" with anything. It is simply is. "Man's nature" as the basis of rights means the attributes of human beings and our means of survival as based on rational thought. We do not have "built in" behaviors of submission and tribalism.
In my old dino American opinion, the Constitution of the United States with its reasoning written on paper for all to read is the best example of such proof.
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Posted by ewv 8 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
There is a lot more to identifying and validating the nature of rights than applying them equally. See Ayn Rand's "The Objectivist Ethics" and "Man's Rights" in her anthology The Virtue of Selfishness.
There is none unless you agree that at a fundamental level, all people share a commonality of opportunity granted by their ability (but not level of ability) to perceive reality and act. And following that, you have to agree that all share a commonality of priority - that no one is inherently granted superior claim to reality over another, i.e., that no single person (or group) has the inherent natural ability to overrule or inherently prevent the actions of another.
Once we establish that everyone has the claim to independently perceive reality and act, then comes the application of cause and effect, i.e. the application of justice. Justice dictates that reality isn't subject to whim - its laws exist independent of the actions of agents who may choose courses of action which either adhere to the principles of reality or not. Justice dictates certain reactions to go with certain actions. Rights then are derived from the application of these "just" reactions which are calculated to adhere to the laws of reality and promote the pursuance of acts conforming to the laws of reality.
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Posted by ewv 8 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
Objectivist epistemology, ethics and politics are not "deduced" from axioms. The entire philosophy is both rational and empirical. It does not need "tidying up" and there is no "trick" waiting to be revealed to "ground" it. The traditional rationalist/empiricist dichotomy is a false alternative and "A is A" is not a tautology. See Ayn Rand's discussion of the axiomatic concepts in particular in her Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, Chapter 6, and Appendix B on "The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy" by Leonard Peikoff.
For that, I would recommend reading Leornard Piekoff's book. You may start with a discussion of the nature of reality, metaphysics, and the nature of knowledge, epistemology. only then can you move into discussions on perception, concepts, the validity of the senses, and othe branches of philosophy like ethics and politics. Rights are an ethical and political notion.
Basically, though, if you start with "A is A" and then follow logically with the primacy of existence as a guide, rather than the primacy of consciousness, you'll get there.
while this is true, people relate to a statement like, "The natural rights of humans are derived from their innate characteristics and the proof of survival of the fittest." . while the proof statement tends to favor "might makes right," I submit that the United States has improved that proof by its very existence. -- j .
ref: Hobbes & Locke...philosophical postings establish the rights you are born with in order to promote rights in a free society vs priviligies granted by govt in a totalitarian society...that which govt grants, govt can take away...in philosophy, it is always...define..or be defined...that is the initial basis to start from...win that battle and you win the position...
The problem is how to get from an " a priori" axiom to an empirical statement. A is A is a tautology and the statement "man is a being of volitional consciousness" is an empirical statement as Peikoff has affirmed(OPAR). Quine (1951)showed it cant be done so Rand used "consciousness is identification" which is empirical but cannot be derived from "A is A" or existence exists. SO be careful in your advice that metaphysical statements can yield epistemological truths unless you can show an empirical basis for metaphysical truths. I will be presenting a paper in Canada this weekend doing just that. SO be assured Rand is right, it just takes some tidying up of philosophy and science to do it. Peikoff affirms in OPAR that metaphysics and epistemology are "empirical" subjects. The trick has been "grounding" that statement..
If you look to nature for support of individual rights, you may be disappointed. Nature is more concerned with passing down a sequence of genes than with the individual containing them. Even in humans we have built in behaviors (deference to authority, tribe loyalty, etc.) that benefit the genes of the group more than the individual.
The short answer is each living object is necessarily responsible for selecting its course of action for its own survival using the information available in the context of the time. For one living object to be assigned or assume the right to determine what is the best action for another entity is biologically and physically inefficient and impossible. Only politics erected to save god and the church has assumed the right to contradict the nature of living things. Leave us alone and we will be as we evolved, happy and efficient. Deny individual rights and civilization founded on rights breaks down in the fight for the spoils. The state of nature requires that some one show what "the state of nature" is scientifically not as Christian doctrine. That is my point above. Natural is nice . when free.
Asa long as you are talking philosophical theory without relationship to anything else. If however you are here as an objectivist and have thoughts of real application you use the letter u and the old original definition which was in place as late as the 1960's in practical application. For me it's a way of honoring the Constitution and working against the use of the long standing argument 'only' of the left. Therefore having objectivist and practical application and not just a discussion of theory. Other than that very fine point the rest is a great discussion. Well worth following. But accuracy in this case is of somewhat much more importance than pointing out the caliber of a .38 or a .357 is actually .34* something the same as a .380 short of a 9 mm.
The difference there is mere advertising. The difference here is your individual freedom. Such as it is these days.
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Simply put if my 'rights' were truly incapable of being suppressed then I could violate the rights of others with impunity.
What the supposition seeks to impose is the premise that there are 'fundamental' rights that cannot be abridged without causing an inherent state of discontent among the people whose rights are so impinged.
And that returns us to the circular argument that it is as wrong to impose a set of restrictions on another individual, as it is to allow another to impose restrictions upon ourselves! It is in our nature to resist.
Once we establish that everyone has the claim to independently perceive reality and act, then comes the application of cause and effect, i.e. the application of justice. Justice dictates that reality isn't subject to whim - its laws exist independent of the actions of agents who may choose courses of action which either adhere to the principles of reality or not. Justice dictates certain reactions to go with certain actions. Rights then are derived from the application of these "just" reactions which are calculated to adhere to the laws of reality and promote the pursuance of acts conforming to the laws of reality.
Basically, though, if you start with "A is A" and then follow logically with the primacy of existence as a guide, rather than the primacy of consciousness, you'll get there.
The proof is that A is A.
I own myself.
I am responsible for the consequences of my own choice of actions.
...and work forward.
rights of humans are derived from their innate characteristics
and the proof of survival of the fittest." . while the proof statement
tends to favor "might makes right," I submit that the United States
has improved that proof by its very existence. -- j
.
The state of nature requires that some one show what "the state of nature" is scientifically not as Christian doctrine. That is my point above. Natural is nice . when free.
The difference there is mere advertising. The difference here is your individual freedom. Such as it is these days.
Thank you.
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