Dominique: de-construct her

Posted by khalling 8 years, 6 months ago to Philosophy
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I will give quotes after I get comments. You love her? hate her? Do women need a man to contain them? because that s the point of the "scene"...no?
k is bored


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  • Posted by cranedragon 8 years, 6 months ago
    I found Dominique to be a very sympathetic character -- but perhaps I come from a different space-time continuum. The most vivid image I have of her is the second-hand image that her father carried -- that of an ecstatic child making a leap out of the sheer joy of freedom and movement. However it happened that she lost that ecstatic child in the ensuing years, she still had that quality. For example, the statue that she smuggled out of Europe and then broke in the airshaft because she couldn't stand to have anyone else see the glorious man that he was. She recognized the greatness in Roark, and the near-greatness in Wynand, and used Wynand to finally understand and then free herself from being constantly afraid that loving someone was too dangerous, that inevitably the kind of person that she desired would only be destroyed by society.

    It would be interesting to imagine what Dominique [and Roark] would have been like if they had met when they were both much younger, and before Dominique became so scarred and fearful. High school sweethearts? But then of course the book is wholly different....

    She was ruled by fear for all those years, and was just as damaged in her own way as the sculptor. They both lived in fear of the drooling beast that would find what you loved and destroy it. Roark was a revelation to each of them, a man unafraid, a man who just didn't think about the people whom they feared so much. He was almost like a mythological being that changes the world as he moves through it, as each person reacts to him, while he is unchanging.

    I can sympathize with those who prefer Atlas to Fountainhead, but I enjoy the Fountainhead as a purely psychological study of the independent man vs. the second-hand man. Toohey and Wynand are compelling characters, and I think that their motivations are laid out brilliantly. In Atlas, the heroes are so, well, heroic, that the villains seem puny by comparison. Toohey, on the other hand, is a big character; I can see him in a Hitchcock drama, and Wynand is far more of a tragically-flawed man than anyone in Atlas. I see him as a counterpart to Dr. Stadler, in a way, as the counterpoise to the hero, but Stadler feels evil, while Wynand just feels lost for the most part.
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    • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 6 months ago
      Thanks, you obviously read what Rand wrote. It was a pleasure to read your thoughts. It is very informative to read IDEAL and see the character development of an "IDEAL" woman across the novels.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
        can you comment more on the post, please?
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        • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 6 months ago
          "Ideal" refers to two concepts of "The Ideal" Plato's concept of a non-existent perfection and the way people treat what they call their ideals. Are they real or are they "ideal". Kay, Kira, Dominique, and Dagny each search for and struggle to achieve the ideal value in man and the world they deserve. Rand shows with each novel a more sophisticated and philosophical understanding of the issues in achieving ones highest values, each person's ideal. In a shorthand, how do you keep the ideal out of the trash?
          Kay is the one who tests what people mean when they say she represents the ideal they never knew could exist. The last words of Kay and Johnnie, his "that you exist"..hers, "that it exists." are the core of Rand and her heroines and their magnificence. Johnnie acts to achieve his highest value, his ideal, and that she could help him do it Kay says "was the kindest thing I have ever done."
          .
          "To forgive wrongs
          Darker than death or night
          To defy power which
          hope thinks infinite
          Neither to change nor falter nor repent.
          This is alone
          To be good great and joyous
          Beautiful and Free
          Life joy empire and Victory.

          Shelly or Tennyson, Prometheus UnBound. I hope from faulty memory.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 6 months ago
    Dominique is a diamond in the rough. She understands that talent and even genius is crushed or taken advantage of and feels helpless to do anything about it. Hence, she acts like the ice queen until she meets Roark. She recognizes that he may be a great man, but she doesn't feel as if she can be disappointed by having an idol with clay feet. As a result she tries to distance herself from him even as she forces interaction with him.. However, Roark recognizes the truth buried under the iceberg, as well as the magnetism enveloping him from her when they interact. The famous "rape" scene was explained cogently by A.R. herself. "It was rape by engraved invitation."
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 6 months ago
    She was in despair. She did not want to fight a
    battle she could not win against the world. She
    left Roark and married Keating as a sort of satire
    against the world, as her form of protest. I found
    such things very unpleasant to read. To tell the
    truth, I liked Atlas Shrugged much better.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      she lacks virtue. whiny, rich girl who doesn't get the world the way she'd like to see it. well what did you do to change it? be a cynic. hurt yourself. great plan. I really had no use for her, nor did I understand Roark's obsession with her. There are women who not only understand, but work for important ideas. Gail dies, Dominique gets a pass? gah. Eddie was worth 5 Dominiques. there. now you know what I think lol
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      • Posted by cranedragon 8 years, 6 months ago
        Whiny rich girl? When does she whine? On the one hand she's condemned as an ice queen, impervious, and on the other she's called whiny and spoiled? Does she behave badly to the people who work for her, her father's housekeeper in the Connecticut house? Does she get drunk and behave vulgarly, just because she's rich?

        Before you condemn Dominique, please go back and reread her testimony at the Stoddard Trial. It's only three pages, not nearly the commitment required to read thru John Galt's speech, but her passion is in every line. Her blazing fury against a world that rose up to condemn and destroy to sublime beauty and life-affirming creation that the Stoddard Temple was, before it became the Hopton Stoddard Home for Subnormal Children, is worth savoring. And then read her paragraph after Wynand's capitulation: "I have never been able to enjoy it before, the sight of the earth, it's such a great background, but it has no meaning except as a background, and I thought of those who owned it and then it hurt me too much. I can love it now. They don't own it. They own nothing. They've never won. I have seen the life of Gail Wynand, and now I know. One cannot hate the earth in their name. The earth is beautiful. And it is a background, but not theirs."

        And the final image of her, on the outside hoist of the Wynand Building under construction -- that's one hell of a dame. I'd like to fine a friend or three like her in my life.

        If she had been born in 1985, she'd probably be running a start-up in Silicon Valley, or producing challenging indie films. For someone born probably in what -- 1910? -- she's quite something. Roark clearly felt that he'd found his match.
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  • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 6 months ago
    I felt a connection to Dagny, but I felt no connection to Dominique at all. It seemed to me that the character of Dominique was written at a time when most women did not work outside the home, especially a rich woman, and, yes, she was defined by her man. I am probably completely wrong, as I can't really see Rand thinking of women in this way, but it was the only way I could try to "get" Dominique.
    And thanks for the big belly laugh. "K is bored."
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  • Posted by JCLanier 8 years, 6 months ago
    When I read Fountainhead it was my first endeavor into Rand's writings. It is still today my favorite. I did admire Dominique. I admit that her methods were unusual, however, I found that Rand connected the dots in such a way as to give credibility to her character. Yes, she came from privilege and yes she was surrounded by high society and she rebelled against the hypocrisy. In several occasions her discussions, her responses/writings for the newspaper were brilliant. By seemingly agreeing to what you knew she despised she, with derision and caustic sarcasm, revealed the absurdity of the thought or action. It made me think of Marc Anthony's speech at the death of Caesar. She was an enigma yet she had a definite objective, either to discover in another the absolute indivisible integrity and the courage to stand against and face the absurdity, the degradation, the compromising of oneself into oblivion that was the modus operandi for the movers and shakers of society OR be destroyed by these very means.

    She was an extremist in all things and she was attracted to an absolute heroic person in Roark.
    Even in love she could not break him, could not defeat his principles. I think Rand was brilliant in her juxtaposition of characters in Fountainhead.
    I agree with cranedragon's comments the heroes and the villains are both strong and formidable individuals. In Fountainhead you have to be willing to delve into the realm of idealism, as such, Rand's refrain returns- "...not with the way things are but the way they should be".
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      idiots can be attracted to heroes and not get it. why her? what did she accomplish for him to love her?
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      • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 6 months ago
        Some people are their souls, they are self created in thought and action to be their values.
        Its an interesting idea, gosh what if people actually had free will and shaped their lives to be their souls?
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      • Posted by JCLanier 8 years, 6 months ago
        Khalling: When you state, "Idiots can be attracted to heroes and not get it." Without knowing Rand's reasoning in the initial development of these two characters (Dominique-Roark) I would venture to say that the attraction between the two might have begun without foundation but attraction between the sexes is exceedingly strong and powerful. Most of us do not immediately understand the underlying basis. However, as the novel develops, Dominique shows stamina and fortitude and declares her dedication to Roark beyond a doubt giving the reasons she admires in his character and at the same time she was also terrified of what his high ideals would do to him, how the methods and powers of the society she traveled in would destroy him. She risked her life for him in the bombing of his building, almost bleeding to death. While she is an eccentric being she definitely loved Roark to abnegation of herself. Roark recognized her high ideals, her refusal to accept the flawed, her pain and self destruction because she could not find the heroic in mankind that should have been there, should have been visible and applied in man's work...

        I can forgive her shortcomings because I chose to see the greatness represented in her person. Out of her drastic self-effacing choices she found her way to the truth.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 6 months ago
    Rand described Dominique as herself on a bad day. I think she represented a person smart enough to see the evil of Toohey for instance, without the strength or will to fight him. So Dominique makes the best out of a bad situation by amusing herself with cynical quips and actions and seeing if anyone is smart enough to notice.
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    • Posted by jsw225 8 years, 6 months ago
      I don't think it had anything to do with strength or will to fight him, but that she didn't consider the world worthy of saving it from him (Toohey). I.E. Would you run into a burning daycare to save the children? Yes! Would you run into a burning prison to save the criminals? No.

      She believed the world was getting exactly what it wanted and deserved, and was going to get it good and hard. Dominique, ultimately, is the pessimism in all of us. We see the world crumbling all around us and wonder, "Should I step forward and save it?" Or "Should I go and get some gasoline and a match?"
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 6 months ago
    I think she wanted Roark and went after him. They met doing that stare-down game b/c she wanted someone who was after what he wanted for himself, as she was, without regard for others and without regard to the society views toward their current jobs. A woman going after what she wanted was, I imagine, a radical notion at the time.

    I'm not clear whether the kinky nature of their relationship was part of her philosophy of selfishness. Its being in the book in such detail suggests Rand saw it as related to philosophy, but I saw it as just a kink. Writing about the kink feels radical today, and was probably very radical at the time. While I don't get the philosophical point, I like that they proudly fly their freak flags in search of what they want in life.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      I'm not sure I buy into kinky, but everyone is different in their tastes. I think she could not feel. She was dead inside to some extent. and she was not used to being challenged. She did use sex as a tool instead of an expression of celebration of man (as I call it). I need to find the scene where she is in the cab and deliberating with herself whether or not to have a one night stand. anyone remember that scene? I think it displays her apathy, like Gail's
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 6 months ago
        What motivates their game (assuming it is a game) where she goads him into attacking her after dates? I took that as an ordinary kink, but maybe if I read it again I would get something more. Maybe she has a general feeling of apathy and is searching for anything that will make her feel like she cares about something.
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