Does gender offend you?

Posted by davidmcnab 5 years, 1 month ago to Culture
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In recent years, I've been seeing gender coming under sustained attack, of relentlessly increasing intensity.

People are now arguing that the very concept of male and female gender is restrictive, oppressive, discriminatory, and needing to be done away with.

The new PC-fashionable derogatory term is "genderist" (or "gender binary"), which is being hurled around with similar viciousness to the terms "racist" and "sexist" in the 1960s-80s.

I am happy and grateful to be male, and my wife is happy and grateful to be female. But we're starting to see an era in which we will be increasingly marginalised and ridiculed for honouring our natures.

It kinda shocked me the other day to see a female Facebook friend on social media, whining about the existence of separate "Boys' toys" and "Girls' toys" aisles in department stores. And another friend is saying she wants to tour around eastern Europe "as a man".

Meanwhile, some jurisdictions are now allowing births to be registered without gender.

How do folks here feel about gender? Personally, I do see some links between those attacking gender, and those attacking ownership and economic self-determination.

What are your thoughts?


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  • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 1 month ago
    Firstly, there is a difference between genetic sex and displayed gender, and this is not necessarily a matter of 'choice'. Any woman who has never conceived a child could be genetically male - and she would never even know it. I have personally known of 3 such women (two of whom were not told the truth by their doctors). So the first thing to do is discard that there is a 'wrongness' about not having your genetics agree with your dress code.

    Second, there is approx one in every 1,666 births are 'not XX or XY', so genetic sexual abnormalities happen relatively frequently. These people are all around you, and you do not even know it (and they may not either).

    Thirdly, MYOB. This is the decision of the individual, not of the society. If someone wants to portray themselves as a particular gender - or as no particular gender, it is a bit out of line for a group of proponents of individual freedom insist that everyone else conform to their standards. Most people are genetically male or female and will naturally identify their gender with their genes. But if they don't, it is THEIR choice.

    Lastly, I think there will come a day when you can change your genetic gender. This may happen within our lifetimes. So I think that gender may eventually be in the class of 'dye your hair red today'. It really does not matter if someone is intergender any more than if they dye their hair. (If they are prickly about it, it is because they are being a jerk as a person, not because they are intergender - anyone can be a jerk.)

    Jan, XX
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    • Posted by 5 years, 1 month ago
      There is another interesting offshoot of this discussion - once we see genetic technology capable of changing people's sex at a genetic level, we'll most likely also have the technology for people to splice in animal DNA, and "mod" themselves way beyond the human genome. A bit of feline muscle tissue will help those basketballers get way up high. and those footballers to end-run around all opposition. And why stop at tattoos and body piercings when you can get gene-grafts to grow some canine fangs? How about some canine genes for chefs to grow far better olfactory cells and refine the cuisine they prepare? And musicians would delight in having a couple of extra arms for playing extra instruments. We'll probably look back and see those sex reassignment surgeries as utterly mild.
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      • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 1 month ago
        I think that would be cool. I have always envied the blue people (real, not rock group). It would be neat to be able to decide to be 'blue' for a few years, just as an aesthetic choice (might be detrimental to my other vigorous hobbies, though, since O2 utilization is poorer - sigh).

        Probably we would use chimp or orang for improved athletic skills, though. They would be better suited to our existing physiques.

        More seriously: regeneration. We actually have the gene that allows regeneration of body parts, we have just lost the mechanism that can turn it on

        Jan
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  • Posted by $ richrobinson 5 years, 1 month ago
    It's ridiculous. Just another progressive distraction. I remember reading years ago that the UN wanted to push for 5 genders. Male, Female, Homosexual male, homosexual female and trans gender. Gender is supposed to be based on the plumbing you have and the left is trying to base it on your lifestyle.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 5 years, 1 month ago
      Easy solution if you don't like how I put it get out of myface and go fly a kite - or bark at the moon. Guaranteed if you open your mouth I not Some WILL be offended
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 5 years, 1 month ago
    I've always been pretty easygoing about what or how people want to call themselves, but I'm pretty old-fashioned about how I address someone. If you dress like a woman/girl, then you're female. If you dress and wear your hair like a man, then that's how I regard you.

    That being said, I admit to being puzzled when confronted by a person who appears androgynous, and seeks offense if I try to avoid gender address, or even guess correctly about their gender. I guess some people want to be offended, as a means of somehow gaining a superior position when in fact they have low self esteem.

    I have worked with transgendered persons (all male-to-female transitions), and I have to admit there must be some pheromone signals that trigger an alarm system. Even though I had congenial dealings with the transgendered as professionals, I felt distinct discomfort that had no basis in their behavior or appearance, Gender is a biological fact, not a preference.
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    • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
      Sex is a biological fact, not gender.
      But there are many "facts" of natural which we find perfectly acceptable to change, like hair color or birth defects. We don't scoff at the person who has surgery to fix a cleft palate, why would we treat someone who is, as they see it, born the wrong sex? One theory is that it is a difference between what a person's brain thinks their sex is and what sexual organs their body has.

      Another thing to ponder on the same topic would be someone who is born hermaphroditic. Would surgery to remove one of the organs (likely the one that is less developed) be as offensive to you as a transsexual operation? What is the difference between the two?
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      • Posted by blackswan 5 years, 1 month ago
        If your dna is xx, you're a woman, if it's xy, you're a man. Period.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
          No, XX is MALE, XY is FEMALE. Man and woman are gender roles, male and female are the sex assignments.

          Would you call a newborn a "man?" Man carries many more connotations than just the specifics of biology.

          Just trying to keep this conversation precise.
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          • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 1 month ago
            Incorrect.

            Jan
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            • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
              This comment contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation. Disagreement is fine, but please elaborate on your reasons.
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              • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 1 month ago
                It is just that your post is factually incorrect:

                XY = male
                XX = female

                I did not know if the inaccuracy was due to a typo or because you actually thought the reverse to be true, and I wanted to drop you a clue rather than make a big deal of it. Please see Wiki 'Sexual determination in humans': " Females have two X chromosomes, and males have a Y chromosome and an X chromosome. ".

                Jan
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                • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
                  OK, it was a typo. Thank you.
                  My post was about trying to make distinctions between the term "man" and "male" but that can definitely get confused when in doing the genetics wrong. Thanks.
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                  • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 1 month ago
                    Sure. Glad you cleared that up.

                    Now back to your real topic: There was some whodunit that I watched when I was a kid where the punchline was that an accused male would rather have been sentenced to prison for rape than be found innocent because he did not want people to find out that he "was not a man" - ie could not perform sexually. The response by the hero was, "You have no idea what 'man' means!"

                    I have a lot of quibbles about the neat (strong; adventurous) part of gender roles being traditionally assigned to the male, but I have no problems with the males having those attributes ( I just want females to have adventurous and strong roles too). So I agree that male does not = man.

                    Jan
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              • Posted by 5 years, 1 month ago
                Dust off that old school biology text.
                XX is female. XY is male.
                The Y chromosome is a massively cut-down version of the X chromosome, but with major genetic code changes which naturally express in the characteristics we have come to know as masculinity.
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          • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 5 years, 1 month ago
            If gender is a synonym for sex, which most uses of it I've encountered are, then XX is the Male gender and XY is the Female gender.

            Once you are talking about gender roles then almost by definition you can no longer be precise because there is a very wide spectrum of roles that people fall into and move among through their lives. Classifying you as a specific one of these is inevitably limiting.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 5 years, 1 month ago
        Not sure where you got the idea I found transgendered offensive. I suppose my observation that I had an unconscious reaction I could only attribute to my brain receiving contradictory signals: the visual, which registered female, and the pheromone-related odor that registered male may have led you to that conclusion. That was a fact, regardless of my respect for the transgendered as people with a right to make their own choices. My reaction also gave me insight into why some people have such extreme reactions to transgendered folk. When the more primitive part of the brain alarms, emotions take over.

        Hermaphrodites have the most difficult time, as operations often happen early in their life that reflect parental sexual preference rather than reflecting the reality of the dominant sex. If things are left unchanged, they're subject to being treated as a freak until they can make their own decisions. Like many other disabilities, the victims deserve help and empathy.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
          I see that I was mistaken in my understanding, and I guess there is not a one-word way to describe your reaction. Thanks for clearing that up.
          In my defense somewhat, though, the "you" was more of the plural meaning, directed at many of the commenters thus far.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 5 years, 1 month ago
        Those facts aren't changed at all, however - they are merely masked. One may color their hair as if to appear to others as a blonde when in fact they are brunette, but it does not change the fact that they are brunette. One may wear colored contacts to make their eyes appear to others to be purple, but it does not change the fact that they are hazel.

        You are mistaking "facts" and reality. The reality is that one can not alter their DNA, and their DNA is what constitutes reality. If one is born with an XY, they are male - regardless of any other trait or tendency. If they are born with an XX, they are female. Can they choose to undergo surgery to appear as something different? Yes. But they are not changing the reality one iota.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
          Correct. They are not changing their DNA. But what exactly is supposed to follow about how a person ought to act based upon their DNA?
          And what is really more important or more real? One's mind or one's DNA?
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          • Posted by $ blarman 5 years, 1 month ago
            Which one objectively reflects reality, and which one is a product of choice and can be influenced by emotion or popular culture?

            I would also point out that "importance" is a matter of subjective value. It is not an objective measure.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 5 years, 1 month ago
        It's like any other form of body dysphoria. It's a mental condition (except for the rare case of hermaprodites) Do we think having one's arm, even sight removed is something that is a proper treatment?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 5 years, 1 month ago
    The word gender, until sometime in the 60's only referred to language. A thoroughly discredited psychologist, the originator of sex reassignment surgery as a part of a psychological/surgery treatment, began using the word to describe what he thought was the mental image of one's own sex. A pair of twin boy's, one of which who's penis was severely damaged in a surgery accident during circumcision, somehow this psychologist got into the case and talked everyone into doing sex reassignment surgery, psychological treatment, and hormone treatment--then wrote the case up as the primary example of what to do with patients that suffered from delusions of being in the wrong body. The word gender was mis-appropriated to replace 'sexual' in order to attempt lessening the connection with male homosexuals that sought the surgery.

    The truth of the results and the life of the boy came out from the family sometime in the 80's and further research confirmed that the psychologist had falsified much of his study and that the boy's life was hell. The entire study and the psychologist was completely discredited. But by that time, others had picked up the banner.

    Most main line mental health professionals believe that sex dysphoria, similar to body part dysphoria (in which a part of the body such as a leg, arm, etc is alien and hated), is a mental problem, while transgenders believe they're trapped in the wrong body.

    So yes, the use of gender to describe human sex offends me. It is nothing more than political correctness taken to extremes and is gobbledygook talk.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 5 years, 1 month ago
    One of my horses told me yesterday that he wanted to be a mare. I pointed out that he was a gelding, had no nuts. He asked if that made him a female. I said, "More female than Bruce Jenner." He seemed satisfied......
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
    I personally recognize the difference between genetic/biological sex and gender. Sex is what nature gives us, gender is an societal construct, and therefore arbitrary. We could just have easily determined that dresses and pink are for boys and that going shirtless with blue shirts is for girls.
    Examples:
    - white is the color of mourning in China instead of black
    - kilts
    - men and women are acceptably topless in many parts of sub-Saharan Africa

    So what exactly does one mean by acting like a man or a woman? It is necessarily restrictive to look down on a female for acting manly or butch or pursuing a goal that is typically considered "for men." The same goes for thinking less of a male who wears makeup, decorates, or acts feminine. This is in the same way one would be restrictive of a person to predetermine which field of study or vocation would be acceptable for him to pursue based on other genetic criteria such as race, hair color, or height (excluding the obvious examples of professional sports which for obvious reasons naturally ought to take things like height into account).

    I do not find gender offensive in the least, but I do find it repulsive to predetermine for a child how he or she should lead their lives based on the sex they were born with.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 5 years, 1 month ago
    Marx's concept is based on dialectic struggle. There must always be something to divide people and creates two classes - us and them. The actual differences do not matter; only having the difference is important. That is why the socialists always proclaim unity - because they are against it. An easy rule of thumb - whatever the socialists say, the reality is the opposite. Like the Democratic Republic of North Korea and the truth in Pravda.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 1 month ago
    I condemn (without whining) the separation of toys by gender. It's a free country for stores that want to do it, but I don't support those toys.

    It's also a free country for people who want to call themselves a gender different from their biological sex, including those weird new genders that I don't understand.

    While I don't presume to tell transgendered people how to live, I do not yet understand it. It seems like they're saying they're born, let's say, a boy, but they always liked doing "girl things". I reject the premise that there are girl things. Suppose there's some activity, like playing with dolls, that girls enjoy much more than boys, even without parental encouragement/discouragement. Okay, that doesn't make dolls are "girl toys". If people just do what they want in live, without regard to group identity, they don't have to change groups. They don't have this awkward situation of comparing their biological sex with how people in that group are supposed to feel about things. How the individual feels defines what that individual ought to feel like.
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    • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
      I agree, CG, and one thing that offended ME was the presumption in one of the posts above that implied that XX versus XY Was THE Measure Of "Reality" from which they 'clearly differentiated sex OR gender.'

      The implication was that such External Judgment was The Only True Answer and that what the individual Being Judged had NO say in the matter, No Matter what They Thought or Felt.

      Like saying "my evaluation of your reality is more accurate than yours..."

      Fucking nonsense AND offensive. Especially, imnsho, for "Objectivists."

      Maybe I took too many "personal growth" classes when I lived in California. Maybe I lived in California too long. Maybe the Socratic Method and Critical Thinking have failed me.

      Maybe I'm 'right' after all...

      After all, It's For YOU To Decide, right?

      Bullshit, "Objectivists."
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  • Posted by jdg 5 years, 1 month ago
    If people want to have their hardware modified, it's up to them. And I don't see that they should be treated as bad guys for doing it.

    I'm just tired of hearing about it. I'd rather not know about anyone's sexual equipment unless one of us is trying to seduce the other.

    As for the "denying reality" argument, I don't buy it. Talk to one of those people (I've known several) and they've thought through pretty deeply what they want to accomplish. The doctors who do these operations insist on thorough psych evaluations before they'll start -- because they're scared to death of lawsuits by someone who undergoes the change, regrets it, and decides it is the doctor's fault.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 5 years, 1 month ago
    But, how can you know that you are male or female? It's the arrogance of mankind to think that you know anything, when you really know nothing at all.
    Gee, seems I've read something like this in the recent past.
    Global Warming...excuse me...Climate Change is another of those issues that could readily have been described in Ayn Rand's works. After all, when satellite data shows actual temperature data, but that data is constantly rejected by some "97% of scientists"...is this not exactly the kind of thing described in Atlas Shrugged?
    A is A...period.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 5 years, 1 month ago
    Robots don't have gender, or sex, and their programming is less problematic than with humans. The concept of replacing humans with robots falls perfectly in line with John Lennon's rallying song for the left, "Imagine." He only missed, Imagine there's no gender....
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  • Posted by fosterj717 5 years, 1 month ago
    Now that we have had over 50 years of intense "identity" and class warfare drilled into our national psyche, it is now apparent that Gramsci and his slavish followers have won (at least in the near-term).

    Creating classes and groups of people and turning one against the other because of "supposed" minority status has been the modus operandi to date.

    These idiotic concepts have been deployed with the goal of driving wedges between us. The goal without a doubt is to destroy America's greatest strength (E Pluribus Unum - Of many one). This has been the Communist/Fabian goal from the get-go. These concepts have been taught in public schools for almost 50 years now by a cadre of those who hate this country and will do anything in their power to destroy it. This is what has so ruthlessly created the left's national idiocy and the right's lack of pushback!

    Perhaps, if and when people stop and think critically again, they will realize just how much they have been played for fools (or worse)! Gender politics is only one facet of the overall problem.
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  • Posted by jimslag 5 years, 1 month ago
    I am sorry for those folks who do not find a fit in the real world. I am a male and relish that fact and my girlfriend (not p.c.) likes being a female, she is a girly girl who likes the frills and trappings of being a girl. We make be archaic but we love it and live our lives accordingly. P.C. be da**ed and LGBT the same. If you don't like what you are born, to bad.
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    • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
      What about being born without legs? Is it just "too bad" for him too? Is it immoral for him to seek surgery for prosthetic limbs? Or a should child born with a heart defect refuse a transplant because that's how they were born?

      And on a side note, take your damnation talk and shove it you know where.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 5 years, 1 month ago
        What about it? You posed the question I'll wait for your considered opinion.

        I'll give you a close to me example. Cerebral Palsy and Cleft Palate.

        The seeking is over. Used to be we sent her uip to Children's Hospital in LA. Thanks to Obama and the crackdown on illegals which is bearing so much positive fruit and the second government and their very high priced passport books that's no longer possible. The Doctor's now come to us and that costs even more money. This time the operations ceased Seven in total needed and three to go to provide funding for better candidates.

        But all that aside ......what's that got to do with someone who decides they want to be some 'thing' else? Shall we call them perthings or huthings? Can't say per-sons that's sexist. Can't say people it's ...i don't know what the objection is this time to that word. Instead we get rid of helsman and say helmer or helm no we get Junior Assisstant West Coast person in charge of wheels and tillers. Maybe things or thangs but not sweet thangs. pretty soon it will be sweet persons and we start over laughing again.

        The kid is doing fine. She doesn't speak yet but she makes sounds that do for yes no hungry or I'm really pissed about something.

        That's what about them. The government FAILED so as usual we had to pay for nothing and then go do the job as a family should ourselves.

        Washington DC Kiss My Ass
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      • Posted by jimslag 5 years, 1 month ago
        I meant by gender, not the things that you mentioned. I am not heartless like some on here and in those cases, yes, it OK to change things like that but as far gender, you are either male or female.
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        • Posted by JohnConnor352 5 years, 1 month ago
          Would you say that man has a different definition than male, as in one carries different connotations than the other? Man implies certain modes of acting, etc. e.g. "Manly"

          What about sex and gender? Sex is biological, gender is about roles and expectations.

          Please try to be precise.
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          • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
            Thanks for your perspectives, John..
            I'm always astounded by alleged "Libertarians" or Ayn Rand 'followers' who seem to be flying those flags just below the Conservative Christian flag.

            It seems that they ARE vain enough to think THEY 'have the right answers' and anyone who disagrees with them ARE 'Satan's Spawn' and will rot in hell in the afterlife (aside from no data to prove OR disprove that...)

            And, for some reason, they DO seem to 'care' about this issue, despite their repetition that they don't, plus protests against 'others shoving their ideas down their throats' while to me, it appears that all the 'others' are 'demanding' is equal treatment under applicable laws and equal "rights" that should be enjoyed by everyone.

            In the same vein, (not a drug reference, for pussies in the audience, btw,) if someone ELSE self-identifies as a gender or even 'inclination' which does NOT reflect their external reproductive apparatus, Why The Fuck is it Such A Big Fucking Deal to oppose Their Right To Do So???

            Find me One logical path that does not have its roots in religion. I love the Socratic Method, I love being an atheist, and I am truly disappointed in the responses from so many people on this thread and related subjects.

            I'm glad I supported the creation of the AS movies, but the general reaction and trends here when Religion or Sex(uality) is the subject here is Really Encouraging me to not participate any more.

            I do appreciate the feedback from 'all sides' in this matter, and also appreciate the added impetus to change my mind.... about 'contributing' where contributions aren't welcome.

            Cheers, all.
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  • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
    A logical extrapolation and 'next step' for Political Correctness in US culture.

    Now, if Evangelical Conservatives could let go of their prejudice towards anyone who's not Hetero Like Them, we might get somewhere.

    I see strong similarities. [sorry.]
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 5 years, 1 month ago
      Prejudice is an opinion; gender is a fact.
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      • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
        ME, does 'gender is a fact' apply to folks that think they have the right, power or wisdom to "decide the gender" for another individual?
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        • Posted by blackswan 5 years, 1 month ago
          NATURE decides your gender, not someone else. If your genes are xx, you're female. If your genes are xy, you're male. Wishing otherwise is an attempt to fake reality. You can do it if you like, but don't demand that I agree or care.
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        • Posted by roneida 5 years, 1 month ago
          plusaf... No they don't... but neither do the wackos who do not have the sense to look at their bodies and tell what sex they are, have the right to tell us to take their decision or shut up. I do not want to share the mens' room with ladies or with guys who are not sure what they are.This is a low point in human stupidity. If one is not sure...shut up about it and leave us straights alone. Your whining is an insult to human intelligence and seeking special government is asinine. Keep your unknowns out of my childrens' bathroom...they know who they are.
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          • Posted by $ sekeres 5 years, 1 month ago
            Segregation of toilet facilities by gender is another local construct. In many places, it's a single group of toilets -- NOT one set for male, another for female. The children I know (& most of their parents :-) want to use whatever facilities have the shorter wait no matter the labeling.
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          • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
            And your generalization implies that ALL people whose plumbing is at odds with what their mind tells them about their gender are Dangerous.

            One of my "Laws" is "Don't trust ANY generalizations."

            Yes, it's meant to be oxymoronic or self-referent, but I try to point it out to people who believe that their Generalizations Are The Same As someone else's Perceptions or equal to some Absolute Truth.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 5 years, 1 month ago
    Originally this non-gender sillyness was an eastern concept. The gods were genderless. When one ascends, there is no use for sex...another reason to volley for immortality I say!
    But not only is this nonsense promoted to go against the way things were created, go against traditional marriage, the Judaeo/Christian historical observations but to create more division within society and promote Alistar Crowley's, "Be what ever you will" there are no consequences, mindlessness.

    Side note: it's easy to see that this crap is done on purpose and the stupid and perverse buy into it but I wonder how much of the solar/cosmic chaotic electromagnetic events, the reduction in our magnetic shielding, the rapid movement of our magnetic poles, might be playing a role in these sociological retardation's. These events do in fact play upon the brain.
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  • -2
    Posted by Wavewriter 5 years, 1 month ago
    I think it's just one more facet in the attack on the family. If you want to control a people, you must separate them from their independence. Keep them from gaining independence and you can force them into dependency. And what unit is more likely to be independent than the natural family? None. Therefor... attack the family... start by convincing wives/mothers/daughters that they are being treated as inferiors and that their station (their role as helpmeet and nurturer) is not a roll of honor. Infer that this "man's world" is out to get them, and that it's both using and abusing them... enslaving them even.

    Next, shame the men for the same reason (and their role in it). Get them to pity the plight of the poor berated downtrodden "weaker vessel." Get them to question their fathers, by focusing solely on the errors made by the few, not the victories and improvements of the many. Employ their natural sense of protectiveness and their desire to defend in getting them to change their perspective on sex roles... even while belittling them for being "programmed" in such an "obviously viscous and barbaric manner" and way. Attack the gender roles and you will eventually come to where we are today. Render them all individual actors, dependent, demoralized, sexless, role-less, and confused and you can make them do whatever you choose.

    Yes. It's a conspiracy. A conspiracy authored by the Devil himself, who stands and cries "Equality!" even to his very maker.

    The only solution is found in Christ The King. (For if there is not a Good King in Heaven who endows all men with certain unalienable righs, who loves us all and commands us to do the same... then from whence do we draw our grievance against the will of those who would oppress?)
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    • Posted by plusaf 5 years, 1 month ago
      Your first sentence made it clear what your conclusion in the last paragraph would be. I didn't need to read anything in-between.

      I'm an atheist and your 'argument' and assertions have no meaning or influence on me.

      But you're obviously well-glued to your beliefs and apparently enjoy sharing them, and I have no right to ask (or tell) you to stop.
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