Does the Objectivist invest with a conscience?

Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 5 months ago to Business
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This is an ethics philosophy question that has been in my craw for a while. Let's say an Objectivist invests in equities to make money - of course. We'll call this investor, "Joe". Joe sees a company whose profits are growing, a manufacturer. He learns that the company makes a product, on government contract, that flies in the face of Objectivism. For the sake of argument let's say they make rail cars with shackles in them to transport citizens around. The government has a contract with this company to produce a few hundred of these cars and profits are way up. Joe knows that, eventually, these cars will probably be used to force people into situations they normally wouldn't go along with without the use of force. Should Joe invest in this company while the profits are growing and share prices are rising? What are your thoughts?


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 5 months ago
    NO.
    In the scenario you've set up an Objectivist, or anyone else would be as evil as the inventor if he invested in the company making such a product. It is possible to invest there if the use of the product is not known to him, although in this case it would be pretty unlikely. The usual excuse for such a buying practice as well as other horrors is, "it's nothing personal" which makes me want to shout, "Yes it is, you moron!"
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    • Posted by peterchunt 8 years, 5 months ago
      In a situation you describe, the answer should be obvious, whether you are an Objectivist or just a good moral citizen. There may be much less obvious situations were you invest in what you think is an ethical company, only to find out later that it isn’t. I don’t believe you can be faulted for the investment, although once you know, you need to take the obvious action.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 8 years, 5 months ago
    Your example is turning your decision from rational to emotional due to the supplied partial context.

    Tell me, would you expect the same reactions if they manufactured guns?

    Partial context - you are assuming they are to be used on citizens with no valid reason. If the contract stipulated prisoner transfer would that change your opinion?
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  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 5 months ago
    Sorry... Socrates here again...

    So WHY are you (Joe) investing in Anything in the First Place?!

    To support 'causes' you believe in? You'd never buy the stock in the first place. QED.

    To make as much profit, dividends or capital gains so that you can Use Those Gains for Whatever You Want?... Well, look at the balance sheets of the Hitler Railroad Corp versus any and all other investments you could make. And choose accordingly.

    Or some mix of the two?

    Any "conclusion" that the One Way Or The Other is Right OR Wrong puts artificial limits on the individual's investing choices. And makes it a Moral Decision, and Moral Decisions don't tend to have rational bases...

    Ok, ducking and running. Cheers, all...
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago
    Isn't being an Objectivist a person that can look at a situation objectively and see the value or disvalue; and most of all, see the consequence of their decisions about either.

    What good or value is created by making money on something that will ultimately destroy that value or even future values to be had or created.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
    The only facet left I'd like to ask about is this...What if the people want it? The citizenry knows about the sale of these train cars with shackles AND agrees that it is in the best interest of the country to allow the government to target groups as it sees fit in order to haul away and detain those people for the best interest of the collective? In this case you have a product that flies in the face of Objectivism yet, in not wanting it, the Objectivist is in a small minority. Does that change it? Ignorance fuels the fire vs deception.

    A similar example, for argument's sake, could be that municipal water suppliers are directed to lace all drinking water with Prozac. You, or any Objectivist, believes this is bad. However, the vast majority of people think it's a good idea. The government has shown many studies, in this case, indicating that this will make people happier. Do you buy stock in the company who makes Prozac while buying an RO water system for your family?

    Thanks again.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 5 months ago
    If he knows that that is going to happen, no. I also
    do not think it is right for an Objectivist to invest
    in totalitarian states. (I also do not think it would
    have been right for American Northerners to buy
    cotton picked from slave plantations in the days
    before the Civil War; however, there may have
    been a possibility that some cotton was picked
    by free people--though unlikely).When I was in
    the Naval Reserve, we were told that we might be
    called up, that maybe the oil industry (or indus-
    tries) would be nationalized; I said nothing at the
    time,but thought that if that happened, I would
    have no choice but to refuse, and then I guess
    I would have been court-martialed. However, it
    didn't happen.
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  • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 5 months ago
    IMHO, You should be investing in things that promote your life or lifestyle, but that also comes with a caveat. If you are going to invest in Brand A soda, you shouldn't be buying Brand B. The best way I could equate it is that I used to work for a service company that had a contract with a certain convenience store. While I worked for them, when I needed to go to a convenience store, I would go to one of those convenience stores rather than a competitor because that competitor didn't help pay my salary. When I no longer had ties to that company, I chose to utilize what was best for me. Personally, I think that it was good (while I was doing that) so that people who saw me at work, also knew that I was checking on them even when I wasn't at work. Perhaps that way of thinking is why I'm not super well off also..
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    • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 5 months ago
      This doesn't make sense to me at all. I drink Coke because I like it better than Pepsi, and I don't see that that would or should change if I invest in PepsiCo or even take a job there.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 5 months ago
    If the rail cars are being manufactured to transport violent criminals, invest away. If they are being made to transport political prisoners and intimidate ordinary citizens, stay away. It's a judgment call that depends heavily on context and on how much the investor knows regarding the government's intentions.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
    You aren't an objectivist in that case. You are a left wing socialist fascist extremist. The excuse is a Nuremberg Defense. It both admit's guilt with prior knowledge and simultanously begs forgiveness and leniency or clemency. You will have to lay out why an objectivist would do such a thing? The false premise is in the question itself.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      Nuremberg. Yes.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
        Well thought out. But i don't quite grasp the translation. Begs the question can or should an objectivist be a left wing socialist fascist extremist or perhaps it was stated in such a manner as to see how many would knowingly invest in such a business or was in unintentionally stated in that fashion or do morals and values have no place in business? So what is it you see in objectivism that might cause one to knowingly invest in such a business. I think not except in a society such as Fascist Economy or State Economy where even when private ownership is allowed it's heavily monitored and guided. Paxin is closer than most as it may well be the manacles were an add on custom feature and unknown to the sotck holder or even the CEO/CFO except as a job order perhaps listed as Safety Belts HD?
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          "...except in a society such as Fascist Economy or State Economy where even when private ownership is allowed it's heavily monitored and guided." I think we're closer to this every day.

          In the current environment of special interests, my original example is quite relevant.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
      How do you do one without the other. The tax is 15%. Corporations and other businesses pay 7.5%. They would rather pay nothing. Privately owned businesses pay 15%. The second and third sentences may be objective but are excuses for taking that which belongs to another. That's Looting or mooching.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 5 months ago
    If one does not, one may actually be fueling one's own oppression.
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    • Posted by walkabout 8 years, 5 months ago
      Stalin (I think, maybe Lenin) noted that the soviet union would buy the rope they would use to hang the West from the West. That iteration did not work out, though we still had anti-communists in leadership positions then. We can not say that now.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 5 months ago
        Kruschev also said that he had already sown the seeds of the West's fall and that in forty or fifty years those seeds would bear fruit. I'd say he was pretty prescient on that point.

        We have many people who do not appreciate the liberty they have and clamor for their own oppression - even voting it into office. Some do so believing that they will be pulled into the ranks of power by those they install in positions of authority. Some do so because they believe the lies they are told by the media - especially when those lies come with "free" stuff. Some do so because they do not want to be free and take responsibility for that freedom. Most simply can not fathom a world where what they have is gone and so do not see the slow, steady, progressive (pun intended) loss of freedoms.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
        He only left out one change in letters. USSA. True the leadership is a 180 degree switch. Looking at the prime candidates of the left especially Hillary and Trump the new version of New Soviet Man would have caused a shock. Especially the leaders. Only millionaires allowed.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 5 months ago
    I think you should keep the shares only if there is a movement of shareholders voting for an initiative to get the company out of this controversial and immoral business.

    There are so many worthwhile businesses to invest in. There's no need to invest in businesses you don't believe in.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 5 months ago
      then you would be a staunch Government Party Member or someone choosing one degree of evil over another. More than likely there would be an initiative to get further in to a lucrative business. So is the answer objectivists have no principles. I think not.
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