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Letter to liberals from my e-mail

Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 6 months ago to Entertainment
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we received this today and thought that it might be
worth sharing:::

Dear American liberals, leftists, social progressives,
socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters:

We have stuck together since the late 1950s for the sake
of the kids, but the whole of this latest election process has
made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated
each other for many years for the sake of future generations,
but sadly, this relationship has clearly run its course.

Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever
agree on what is right for us all, so let's just end it on friendly
terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable
differences and go our own way.

Here is our separation agreement:

Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass,
each taking a similar portion. That will be the difficult part, but
I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement.
After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective
representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both
sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.

We don't like redistributive taxes, so you can keep them.
You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU.
Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops,
the NRA and the military.
We'll take the nasty, smelly oil industry and the coal mines, and
you can go with wind, solar and bio-diesel.
You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell. You
are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle
big enough to move all three of them.
We'll keep capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical
companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street.
You can have your beloved lifelong welfare-dwellers, food
stamps, homeless (except for the Vets), homeboys, hippies,
druggies and illegal aliens.
We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey-moms, greedy CEOs
and rednecks.
We'll keep Bill O'Reilly and Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood.
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right
to invade and hammer places which threaten us.
You can have the peaceniks and war protesters.
When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help
provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values.
You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism, political
correctness and Shirley MacLaine. You can also have the U.N. –
but we will no longer be paying the bill.
We'll keep the SUV's, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars.
You can take every Volt and Leaf you can find.
You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors.
We'll keep "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" and "The National Anthem."
I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute "Imagine," "I'd Like to Teach
the World to Sing," "Kum Ba Ya" or "We Are the World."
We'll practice trickle-down economics and you can continue to
give trickle up poverty your best shot.
Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name
and our flag.

Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other
like-minded liberal and conservative patriots, and if you do not
agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you
might think about which one of us will need whose help
in 15 years.

Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student, and an American

P.S. Also, please take Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin & Charlie
Sheen, Barbara Streisand and (Hanoi) Jane Fonda with you.

P.P.S. And you won't have to press 1 for English
when you call our country.

-- j, prompted by jlc
.


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  • Posted by mdant 8 years, 6 months ago
    Wonderful concept but it can never work because the ultimate founding principal of the Liberal religion is that the "Enlightened Government" should control everyone and ultimately there should be one government for the entire world controlling everyone in the world. Until they have that they will never be satisfied.

    Not exactly the same thing but 150 years ago something was tried in a similar manor. The South simply wanted to go its own way but the Federal Government was determined to kill them all rather than letting that happen. Contrary to popular belief, the South losing the war was the biggest blow to freedom this Country ever experienced. Most people do not understand that because they are taught it was all about slavery, when of course it was not. Slavery was an issue that the south was wrong on (and I think would have eventually changed) but the war never would have happened over slavery. It was because the South was tired of being controlled on everything, particularly the economic issues. If the South had won, the precedent would be set that States are free. As it is, States are totally subservient to the Feds and have no real freedom or control at all!
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
      Actually, the South finally got off it about slavery toward the end of the war, when they recruited 90,000 blacks into the Confederate army (an integrated army, by the way). Their mistake was in letting Lincoln make that an issue, blocking aid from England and France, that might have led to victory. Davis and company were too slow to get off the obvious speed bump, and they lost. If they'd freed the slaves, and recruited more of them into the Confederate army early on, they probably would have won. So, slavery WAS an issue, and it led to defeat.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
        It's hard to block the lying GOP from making an issue and creating the history that makes them look like heroes instead of the statist looters they really are, when your house and farm have been burned, your brothers killed or maimed, your wife and daughters raped, and your property stolen. The main issue was taxes and corruption by the GOP. The slavery issue has been manipulated from the end of the war including the part it played in European powers non-involvement in Lincoln's Looter War. The mistake the south made was to expect any fair treatment by Lincoln and his band of traitors. Was slavery wrong? Yes, absolutely shameful, but it was not important to the GOP. All they wanted was power, just like they do today, and they didn't care how many had to die to get it.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
          So how does that make them different from the other half of the Government Party? A left wing fascist socialist is a left wing fascist socialist by any other name including corporatist, statist, and union leaders. The rest is just beating a dead horse and ignoriing present day reality
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          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
            No doubt, Michael. I complain more about the GOP because the people who support them are much more likely to be for individual liberty, and I want them as allies instead of dupes of the GOP.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
              If I knew how many of them existed and I assume they are a minority but who knows, Form a New Reublican Constitutionalist Party bolt from the rest, lose some committees they don't control anyway and go for more votes in the next elections. Gain a majority by voting independently of the Dem/RINO Coalition and showing they are worth something besides using up oxygen.
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              • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
                We already have that Party. It is called the Libertarian Party.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                  That's one of many and the largest I reckon but it has no one inside that can do a palace revolt and then attract all those Libertarian and others who aren't identified by a party but are disenfranchised. On the other hand if they do nothing it's an easy call ...Republican = RINO 100% RINO = lapdogs of the DNC = read this carefully right wing OF the left.

                  Looks like the Devil's Advocate Strategy is the most likely way to go. Vote for whomever will finish the destruction and start over from scratch.

                  Not enough cooperation too much pontificating. Too much preaching no plan of action.
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    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
      The South and the Federal Government are, respectively, a geographic location and a legal/political entity. I don't think they have personal qualities such as desires and determination. Individuals inside both the South and the Federal Government could be found on both sides of the issues of secession and slavery.

      I grew up in the South in the late 1940s and early 1950s, and even then, nearly a century after the Civil War (or the "War of Northern Aggression" as many called it) the widespread attitude by whites of their racial superiority was so strong that I believe a majority of whites would have voted to re-introduce slavery had it been possible. If the Confederacy had won, slavery in the South would have taken decades, and perhaps centuries, to disappear.
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      • Posted by mdant 8 years, 6 months ago
        Maybe...I have heard scholars who examined this predict that slavery would have ended on its own in the South in 25 years...but either way that is missing the point. The war was not about slavery and neither side, North or South, would have gone to war over the issue of slavery alone. Lincoln himself wrote that he would let the South keep slavery if it could prevent the war, but he knew it could not. The North Demanded to be in complete control and the South took that as a personal insult. The North would have used any issue to try and make their power grab look appropriate and the South was fed up and ready to fight period. (though I am sure their were individuals on both sides willing to fight for or against slavery, but not society in general).
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
        Economics would have demolished slavery in the South just as it did elsewhere, and your growing up in the 40s and 50s would have been better for people of all colors if Lincoln's parents had never met.
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        • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
          Economics would eventually have rendered slavery less profitable, but likely would not have led to its speedy abolition. Cultural factors such as moral aversion to slavery are more important. This cultural factor was distinctly lacking in the South that I grew up in, and was near non-existent in the South of the late 19th Century. Many southern whites of the mid-20th Century were convinced that African-Americans would have been “better off” if they had remained slaves.

          For a present-day example of culture overpowering economics (and common sense), consider the anti-drug laws and the extent of their enforcement.
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          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
            Anti-drug laws ARE economically based, just biased for a very small minority and not free market based. (grin)
            Had the war not occurred slavery would have died and culture would have changed rapidly. There were very few slave owners and when it became unprofitable those would have switched or bankrupted (unless the GOP thought slavery would advance their power.) The culture would have undergone immense changes and by the 40s it would have been completely (and unpredictably) different. The war and reconstruction caused immense hostility in the southerners toward the north, and that adversely affected relations between blacks and whites. WIthout the destruction of the south in the war that effectively enslaved the southern survivors, the south would have adapted relatively quickly to the economic disadvantage of slavery. By the time you were born it would have been a different world. But that didn't happen because Lincoln wanted to enslave southerners to the nothern corporatocracy, and after murdering 600,000, Lincoln got his wish.
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            • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
              You’re giving us a “best possible case” scenario. Slavery was not confined to large plantations, and while plantation slavery would likely have declined as mechanization advanced, there would have continued to be plenty of demand for household work and heavy manual labor. An improving economy in the South might have even increased the demand for slaves for the personal convenience of economically well-off households and as a status symbol. To a certain extent, an industrialized South would also have stoked demand for slaves to work in factories. Another factor to consider is that most of the white population (not just slave owners) were absolutely convinced of their racial superiority, and feared that freeing a significant number of slaves would undermine their social structure and give the remaining slaves “radical” ideas. No way was the South going to end slavery without being forced to. A “gradualist” approach would have taken decades and perhaps more than a century.
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                Nor was it confined to the South. The South used slaves. The importers were from the North. Why? Economics and resources. The north built ships the south grew cotton. Cotton out to places like the thriving textile industry in England. A short hop for some goods from various European ports connected with the China Trade perhaps and then a quick pickup of human cargo. Back to the customers in the south....etc. etc. etc. The south banned importation the slave markets moved offshore to places like Cuba. Cui Bono. Some southerners became wealthy enough to buy ships but mostly it was yankee traders and yankee slave traders.
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              • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
                Those evil Southerners. The case I outlined is merely a rational conclusion based on how slavery declined elsewhere for economic reasons, not based upon the propaganda forced into history books to make Lincoln the Looter look like a saint. However, both sides had faults and slavery was a hideous thing to do to anyone, yet the looters continue to do it today albeit indirectly. That may be the best argument for your scenario. A gradual approach worked elsewhere, but Lincoln had to create his own 'slaves' just as Obama does today, killing hundreds of thousands while pretending to deliver them from dictatorship..
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                  Just making sure you don't forget who sold them the slaves. It was all yankees! Just like today. The north and east is predominately pro left wing fascist socialist especially those who will make a buck off of it. I'm not from the South.
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                • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
                  The South enshrined slavery as a constitutional right. Please read this and then give me your estimate of how long a “gradualist” approach would have taken if the Confederacy had gone its own way:

                  http://civilwartalk.com/threads/what-...
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                  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
                    None of that addresses my point. The government of the south is not a good example of the people of the south any more than the federal government today represents the people of America. It represents the economic interests of a few large slave owners at a time when slavery was economically profitable, albeit barely profitable. They were resisting the ruin of their businesses just as the big banks resisted in the economic collapse in 2008. The people of the south had no vested interest in slavery and when it became an economic disaster the slave owners would have switched to more modern economic methods of business. Those who did not would have failed to exist. It would not have happened over night, but it would not have been impeded by the destruction of the south and the animosity that was created by the unjust and immoral tariff war.
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                    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
                      “Tennessee adopted an ordinance of secession in May (1861) and placed the Confederate Constitution before the voters, who endorsed it in August by a vote of 85,753 to 30,863.”
                      http://civilwarhome.com/csaconstituti...
                      So “The government of the south is not a good example of the people of the south”? It looks to me like an overwhelming reflection of the white people of the south.
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                      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
                        It is not rational to ignore the actual events of the time in an attempt to portray the entire south or even the people of Tennessee as supporting slavery when it was a minor issue. In fact, Seven states had seceded 4 months earlier and by the time Tennessee had that vote the war was already in progress with Lincoln's action at Fort Sumter. The choice being decided in Tennessee was not whether slavery was approved by the voters, but whether they would allow Lincoln to assess taxes that would wreck the economy of the agrarian south in order to give the money to northern manufacturers that supported Lincoln's election because he promised them corporate welfare at the south's expense. The people of Tennessee had little in common with the manufacturers of New York, but much on common with their agrarian neighbors in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.
                        Lincoln was elected on the tariff issue that he and his supporters were well aware would likely cause at the very least nullification of the tariff by southern states. The tariff of abominations had been tried once before and South Carolina had voted to nullify it. They knew that South Carolina would vehemently oppose it, having declared the earlier version unconstitutional, and that other southern states would likely side with South Carolina. This was a traitorous political move by the looter Whigs and it caused the war.
                        All that said, I would also propose that the southern people were likely misled by the southern politicians catering to southern plantation owners, and the northern people were likely misled by northern politicians catering to northern manufacturers. That is what politicians do.
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                        • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
                          The Morrill Tariff passed the Senate in February 1861 by a vote of 25-14. By that time seven Southern states had seceded and their senators had left. If these states had remained in the Union and their senators had voted as a bloc, the tariff would have failed by a vote of 28-25. And the tariff was signed into law on March 2 by outgoing Democratic President James Buchanan. For more details, see
                          http://civilwartalk.com/threads/march...

                          Also worth noting is that in 1860 the Democratic Party split into northern and southern factions, nominating separate presidential candidates and helping to facilitate the election of Lincoln. Was the tariff to blame? No, the issue that split the Democrats apart was – slavery.
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                          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                            Knowing the slavers who did the transport and selling were Northerners I wondered if there existed a political affiliation perhaps even Copper Heads or was it more a case of spread across the different parties? Except I would suppose the abolitionists. I am reading through the three volume "History we weren't taught" series
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                          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
                            Read DiLorenzo's books on Lincoln to get the facts instead of the propaganda. Slavery was a side issue.
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                            • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
                              “But it is said Mr. Lincoln's policy and principles are against the Constitution, and that, if he carries them out, it will be destructive of our rights. Let us not anticipate a threatened evil. If he violates the Constitution, then will come our time to act. . . Now, upon another point, and that the most difficult, and deserving your most serious consideration, I will speak. That is, the course which this State should pursue toward those Northern States which, by their legislative acts, have attempted to nullify the Fugitive Slave Law. . . Before making reprisals, we should exhaust every means of bringing about a peaceful settlement of the controversy.” – Alexander Stephens, future Vice-President of the Confederate States of America, November 1860.
                              http://www.civilwarcauses.org/steph2....
                              Slavery was not a side issue.
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                              • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 6 months ago
                                You choose to ignore the evidence and accept the history as told by the union looters. You have taken this topic far from its origin and keep cherry picking quotes that are irrelevant to the stance of the topic being discussed. The truth of the issue is in Dilorenzo's well researched and supported books. Read them. Don't waste my time with this drivel.
                                Check your premises.
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                                • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 6 months ago
                                  Please re-read my posts. I have not “accepted the history” as told by either side. Nor have I said a thing about Lincoln’s motives or actions, pro or con. My posts are based on my own understanding of the South (having grown up there in the 1940s and 1950s), my understanding of free-market economics, facts about the Civil War period that are not in dispute, the text of the Confederate Constitution, and a public speech by a man who would become a prominent Confederate officeholder. As far as I can tell, none of the above sources are related to “history as told by the union looters.”
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                  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                    Let's see it took Mississippi until after the year 2000 to remove those laws. I didn't hear much from the North on that until long after the Civil War. About a hundred years or so after......the rest of the south did it under force of arms and because they knew if they complied they could get more seats in Congress and take their full measure there after rejoining the Northern Democrats and of course RINOs..
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  • Posted by LazarusLong 8 years, 6 months ago
    The liberal agenda is of one purpose only and that is to gain power and control over all the minds of men with pretty sounding platitudes and then make them all miserable as themselves. They might agree to the division until they run out of resources and money and then they'll want to invade and start the process of statism all over again because our way of life is "unfair".
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 6 months ago
    Oh yeah. "We'll practice trickle-down economics and you can continue to give trickle up poverty your best shot.
    Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag."

    I would personally add, "We will keep our borders secure. You are welcome to apply to immigrate to our country, but you had better come prepared to use English in official and business communication, and to work your butt off to get ahead. And if you do not subscribe to the tenants of freedom for every class of individual, irregardless of gender, race or religion...don't bother filling out the form."

    Jan
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  • Posted by wmiranda 8 years, 6 months ago
    Also, they can have all the crap we can produce as fertilizer so they can grow their organic gardens. They're going to need it. We don't want anything in return.
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  • Posted by gaiagal 8 years, 6 months ago
    Had to tweet this one! Thanks for posting it. Think it's a great idea. Too bad we've had to devolve to the point where an East and West America sounds attractive.

    Too bad this couldn't happen because the useful idiot sector of the liberal sham would truly believe they had to save us from ourselves.
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    • Posted by $ winterwind 8 years, 6 months ago
      Actually, dividing into East and West America is easier than it might sound - there's already a nice wide river there for a border. I'd propose that West America [and East, if they want] stretch all the way North until we run out of land, thus leaving East America and East Canada, natural allies, together.
      One problem - West America needs ocean access, and I'm not keeping California, Oregon or Washington. But this is West America - we the ones who are determined to solve problems, not make them.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
    Back to the opening Comment. You get everything East of the Mississippi and north of the Mason Dixon line. AND Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland and all of Oregon unless you pay for transporting the plants.Should be plenty of room you get to keep Trump in the bargain.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 6 months ago
    Love it...although we should give them the prescription drug addict industrial complex and we'll keep emergency medicine, surgeons, naturalpathic doctors and chiropractor's.
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  • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
    Love it! May I repost? I take issue with one item: Corporations and Capitalism do not belong together in my opinion. I believe people incorporate so as not to take personal responsibility for their business and the decisions they make. I believe it is anti-capitalism. Liberals can keep corporations and ceo's and all the corporate chronies. too, in my opinion. I would prefer businesses like Reardon Steel and such. There were no corporations in AS. Those businessmen took great pride and total control and responsibility for their businesses.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
      With all due respect, ycandrea, but imho corporations and capitalism do belong together. Although there are different forms of corporations, generally they have a shareholder base from which the initial capital was accumulated to fund the business to begin with or even more stock issuance to expand said business. The notion that anyone can own a piece of a company through stocks or bonds is truly capitalistic. Other than the resulting price of the stock or bond, it is important to separate corporate governance (CEO, etc.) from ownership (share/bond holders). To illustrate why, I offer grandma as an example. Grandma is retired and in her pension and/or investment portfolio are mutual funds with shares of stock. Other than the risk effects on the price of her stock, should grandma be held accountable for some nefarious act perpetrated by a corporate executive or employee (actually, an executive is an employee)? Perhaps even do jail time? I would hope not.

      Ayn Rand illustrated capitalism and crony capitalism in AS and their differences. I don't recall if she ever stated whether or not Rearden Steel was incorporated, but Taggart Transcontinental had shareholders so it most likely was.

      There are thousands of corporations and CEO's in the U.S. and the great majority are upright in their dealings and are quite responsible individuals. Don't let yourself get caught up in that liberal "all businessmen are bad evil capitalists" BS.
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      • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
        Hello mc! I do understand what you are saying, but I still think corporations are a big problem in our country since it changed in 1855. If Taggart Transcontinental had to incorporate to go public, then this proves my point of how wrong incorporating is. This company is a prime example of the difference between Dagney and James. Dagney tried to run it as her family business. James deferred to the Board of Directors. Taggart Transcontinental became corrupt because of being incorporated and no one being responsible for the decisions.

        Corporations were fine until our country changed the ground rules in 1855 by limiting the liability of the shareholders. This is what makes it so irresponsible. If shareholders are owners and investors, then they should share in the debts as well.

        You say there are many "upright" and "responsible" people running corporations, but I have been watching that change over the years because on the invisibility of who is running it and who to go to for solutions. Take for example all of the bankruptcies where no one is responsible for paying the corporations debts. So they stole from other businesses and no one is held accountable. This is just wrong.

        I love capitalism and big and small businesses, please do not get me wrong. I hate what is happening in our country and I do blame corporations, not real businesses, (and I believe there is a difference), for a lot of it. Crony capitalism is a direct offshoot of limited liability corporations.
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        • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
          Hello, ycandrea. I still respectfully disagree. Taggart Transcontinental (TT) is used to illustrate points in Ayn Rands novel, but “how wrong incorporating is” isn’t one of them and TT isn’t an example of such. Presumably, Grandpa Taggart had a dream and the skills to build a railroad, but not the funding. By incorporating the business and selling stock, the capital to build his dream could be raised. If the potential shareholders were to be held financially (or criminally) liable for anything beyond their investment, it is doubtful anyone would invest in such a business and there would be no TT railroad. To have a modern (as we know it) free capitalist robust economy and society there has to be a mechanism to move capital to where it needs to be in a relatively easy manner without forcing the owners of the capital liable for much, if anything, beyond the value of that capital (unless they’ve done something that IS criminal). This is where modern incorporation to do business is extremely useful. This does NOT mean that in a free economy there is no risk involved. There is always risk and in a free society it is often up to the individual as to how to deal with it or not (actually, in a non-free society there are risks, too, but may be of a different nature).

          Let me illustrate this with a hypothetical example. ABC is a multibillion dollar car company with thousands of employees and shareholders, including grandma in her retirement fund. Now, the management and union bosses hammer out a contract that is quite lucrative to the union members, but increases the price of their product beyond what the market will bear. Sales slump, ABC can’t afford to pay its liabilities and goes belly up. Thousands of employees lose their jobs, including management and hundreds of small businesses dealing with ABC also go belly up and their employees lose their jobs. No one did anything criminal and cannot be held liable as such. The management and the union bosses may have been very foolish, but not criminal. As a corporation, the liability for losses caused by ABC’s bankruptcy is limited to the value of the assets of ABC and no further. In a free capitalist economy anyone working for, investing in, or doing business with ABC takes the risk that the leadership (management and union) of ABC will always make prudent decisions. They also take the risk that the ABC leadership may make a serious mistake in judgement causing them to suffer the consequences of an ABC failure. (Side note: There are other non-criminal reasons for a major corporation to go belly up. For example, it’s flagship product may become obsolete as in the case of Eastman Kodak.)

          In your scenario, grandma, as a shareholder would be forced to cover all losses associated with her ABC shares even beyond the value of the shares, even if she had to sell her house, car, and whatever may be left in her retirement fund. How about if grandma held shares in Eastman Kodak? I say grandma’s liability ends with the value of her shares and goes no further.
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          • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
            With all due respect to you also mc, I totally disagree with your premise. I think only the investors, including grandma, should be taking the risks, not the creditors. Investing is always a gamble. Sometimes you win more than you invest and sometimes you lose more than you invest. I know that is not how the world sees it now, but that does not change my basic values and beliefs. I always take things down to the root and the premise it is built on. We can agree to disagree on this one.
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            • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
              OK, ycandrea, we can agree to disagree on this one. This has been a nice conversation and I appreciate that. In parting, I'll leave you with a couple of lines and give you last say.

              Investing is not always a gamble. However, if you treat the market like a casino it will treat you as if it really were a casino.

              I'm glad our lawmakers see incorporation as I do in this matter. If they ever change their minds and pass legislation as you see it I predict we will witness the greatest stock market crash in history. Our economy will sink faster than a lead brick tossed in the ocean and we all can experience living as in 1850 again.
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          • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
            your example, mccannon01, gives rise to a question:::
            if the unwise expenditure of bucks in the contract left some
            people enriched just before the failure of the company,
            the argument could be made that those enriched folks
            should cough up the extra bucks to pay creditors during
            the dissolution of the company. . What Say Ye? -- j
            .
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            • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
              If it can be shown that something nefarious had occurred (akin to insider trading, for example, which is against the law), then by all means the money should be recovered and perhaps criminal charges brought up against the perpetrators.

              This isn't always the case. For example as Eastman Kodak was going under, the board brought in a new CEO, George Fisher from Motorola, to attempt to "save the company". To bring him on they had to offer a very lucrative contract (obscenely lucrative, IMHO) because no self respecting exec would want to sully his name with a catastrophic failure. Saving a fast falling multi-billion dollar multi-national company is no easy task and, as many expected, it went under in spite of any attempts to save it. George got his "golden parachute" contract fulfilled, which was not illegal in any way in spite of making some people angry over the size of it. [ Side note: Almost all the workers got pretty decent severance packages compared to other companies that went under.]
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        • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
          your point is a solid one, and I agree. . limiting liability
          is like allowing people to buy a dog without having to keep it
          on a leash, or pay for the damage if it breaks loose.
          both LLCs and bankruptcies are also like that, leaving
          the society in general to pick up the pieces and make up
          for the defaults. . as a society, we should tighten this up.
          and it pertains to immigration plus refugees as well --
          if an individual offers more potential value than debt,
          we are attracted and admit them. . no responsibility,
          no admittability. -- j
          .
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          • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
            Your dog owner scenario sounds like a sole proprietorship, not a corporation, and the dog owner IS liable.
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            • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
              yet the "no accountability" characteristic of an INC or an LLC
              makes me squirm with resentment. . the rest of society
              must carry the burden of their defaults. . where's the justice? -- j
              .
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              • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
                The accountability for share holders is up to the value of their shares. Squirming with resentment is certainly an emotional response to a tragic situation, but it isn't rational. We don't like to see failures of large companies, but this is the real world and it happens.

                I used Eastman Kodak as one example in my conversation with ycandrea. In 1982 it employed 62 thousand people in Rochester, NY but by 2011 it employed less than 5000 and went bankrupt. If grandma was a shareholder, she lost her entire investment. Under your scenario the 57 thousand people who lost their jobs are entitled to everything grandma has. If I owned a machine shop supplying EK and it went under when EK went under, do I have a right to grandma's house?
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                • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
                  mc: Grandma would not be nor any shareholders would not be responsible for the employees losing their jobs if the company files for bankruptcy. Employees are not creditors. They are paid for time worked, not for possible future pay! I was speaking of creditors only. Companies need to pay their bills. They are responsible for merchandise and services they used and so are the shareholders. Again, just my opinion.
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                  • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
                    OK, so we're narrowing the field to whom actually gets a piece of the pie when a company fails. I invest in stock equities as well as bonds so I am clearly on both sides of the equation in this discussion. On the corporate bond side I'm currently well invested so I'm fully aware of being a creditor. I'm also aware of the risk. I know (up front) if a company I am a creditor of through my bond ownership fails, I will very likely not get all my money back. I also know (up front) if grandma's pension held stock in that company, my lawyers and I will not be reaching out for anything she has beyond her share of the company. THAT risk was MINE, not hers. Her personal wealth is protected by the incorporation laws. Too bad for me and as a creditor/investor I darn well should be aware of that up front before I loan money to a corporation via a bond purchase. [Side note: Actually, I purchase shares of various bond funds as part of my overall investment portfolio, rather than individual bonds. That way if any one issue defaults, I may say "ouch", but I can still go out to dinner the next day. IMHO, purchasing well managed bond funds is far less PITA (Pain In The A**) than managing the laddering of a bunch of individual bonds myself.]

                    Likewise, if grandma holds bonds in a failed corporation that I hold stock in, she and her lawyers might get the value of my shares, but will not be able to raid the rest of my personal wealth. THAT is the risk SHE took.
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                • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
                  buying stock in an INC or an LLC involves voluntarily
                  agreeing that bankruptcy will evaporate most, or all, of your
                  investment. . that's the squirm. . I'd rather buy gold. . and
                  I have. . but, propping up grandma when her investment
                  goes "poof " is a voluntary societal implication which
                  costs us all. . value for irresponsibility, not value for value.
                  that's the big squirm. . and no, grandma's house is not
                  in jeopardy. . employees and suppliers take risks like the
                  shareholders do. . still, there is the value-for-nothing squirm. -- j
                  .
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                  • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
                    Ah, johnpe1, it looks like your "squirm" isn't so much with incorporates as it is with the Great Welfare/Bailout State. A different subject all together.

                    Incorporation places a fire wall between an individuals unrelated personal wealth and the equity that individual has invested in the given enterprise. NOW grandma's house can't be taken if she owns stock in a company that fails, but if you change the law so that fire wall is taken away, then grandma's house will be up for grabs.
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                    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
                      yes, and that firewall allows mismanagement to make
                      a mess of things and we in the rest of the u.s. must
                      make up for it. . like the GM bail-out paid for by us taxpayers.
                      there ain't no free lunch. -- j
                      .
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                      • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
                        In the real world there will be mismanagement whether there is a "fire wall" or not. The question here is, should the taxpayer be forced to bail out a failing private enterprise (assuming the failure wasn't government precipitated like, imho, the recent mortgage debacle)? I say no. In my opinion, GM should have been allowed to break up or reorganize under the bankruptcy laws or to go under completely. Same as the old steel mills. No taxpayer bailouts.
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                        • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
                          I agree completely, yet the perpetrators usually get off
                          scot-free with their millions, unscathed. . that's what the
                          taxpayers are funding, it appears to me. . golden parachutes
                          for mis-managers. -- j
                          .
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                          • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
                            Well, johnpe1, we definitely have some common ground here in the fact I think some of the management of various companies are grossly overpaid. That, however, is a function of the free enterprise system and the contract deals the board of directors and shareholders are willing to put up with. If the contract was somehow fraudulent, then by all means the "system" should have a mechanism to recover the associated value from the perpetrator. However, if the contract was legal and legitimate, regardless if foolish, no matter how jealous, envious, or angry we may be it must be allowed to stand. Keep in mind companies don't always fail from mismanagement or criminal activity, either.

                            If shareholders could push the boardroom to not be so generous with their money maybe some sanity can be restored in executive pay.

                            As for the taxpayer funding part, that argument (as I said above) is with the legitimacy of a Great Welfare/Bailout State in a supposedly free economy not with private enterprise boardroom decision making, as fine or foolish as it may be.

                            As a side note, I have traded/invested in numerous companies over the years and one of the criteria I look at is how much stock/bonds does the management carry in their own companies (by insider trading law this has to be public knowledge for public corporations). It is also important to check if they are buying or selling and why, especially for smaller companies. I am very reluctant to purchase stock in a company whose executives won't hold (or are selling) stock in it themselves.
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                            • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
                              I was just suggesting that the mis-managers should be accountable
                              for their actions;;; I do not resent anyone's pay if it doesn't involve
                              force or coercion!!! . this is a tough area in which to imagine laws
                              or methods of arriving at justice, isn't it??? -- j
                              .
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    • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 6 months ago
      Of course they incorporate to not have personal responsibility. Duh. The only alternative would be a corporation with joint and several liability. That would mean if you bought one share of GM - you are liable, personally, for all of their debt and actions.

      What makes you think Rearden Steel was not a corporation? Taggart Transcontinental definitely was a corporation. DAnconia copper definitely was a corporation.
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      • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
        You assume quite a bit. I have explained my position quite clearly already in this post. Your share of responsibility should be based on the same percentage as the earnings your make. Duh. Responsibility should be is based on your percentage of investment to the whole, not 100%. Your premise just does not make sense to me.
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        • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 6 months ago
          So you have just defined how a modern corporation works. Thanks.
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          • Posted by ycandrea 8 years, 6 months ago
            I think not. Now-a-days, creditors are not paid back and shareholders are not liable for more than they put in. Shareholders should be liable for the entire debt calculated at their % of ownership, which is their investment and earnings.

            Let's say I invest $1,000 in a company worth $3,000,000. Let say over 5 years I earn $75 per year. That is a total of $375. Let's say there are 2,000 other investors who have invested $2,000 each, and each earning $150 per year totaling $750 each over 5 years. That is a total investment of $4,001,000, and total earnings of the shareholders over 5 years of $1,500,750. My percentage of the investment is .02% and the other 2,000 investors percentage is .05% each for a total of 99.98%.
            Then let's say the company goes under, (because they have been paying a CEO $2,000,000 a year salary). Let's say the company owes $10,000,000 to vendors and banks in goods, services and loans. My share of what is owed is $2,500. ($10,000,000 X .02%). So even though I invested $1,000 and earned an additional $375, I still have to pay my share of the debt. And so do the other shareholders. What is so hard to understand about this?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
    Wait until they find out as top dogs in Washington DC they now are, by definition, Conservatives!!!!
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      well, I can define air as food and claim that no one is starving,
      but it doesn't make me right!!! -- j
      .
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      • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 6 months ago
        Of course you are ... according to your definitions! When you make up your own definitions, you can ALWAYS be right!
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
          Do you know the definitions of conservative and liberal and which one fits those in power?

          Pre PC dictionaries help. It helps when you use real definitions and not made up Political Crap
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          • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
            ummmmm ..... he was speaking tongue-in-cheek, or with
            sarcasm, I believe. . and those in power are fascistic, IMHO. -- j
            .
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
              of course left wing socalists fascists. nothing new there. has nought to do with the real definition of liberal and conservative. Nothing made up and I already posted it more than once with the real definitions. This is one of those bet me and you lose sure things..
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              • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
                Conservative - Preservation of the Existing Order. Moderate, Prudent, Traditional, Defense of the Status Quo. Practical

                Liberal - lacking restraint, not bound by orthodoxy or traditional forms, progressive ideals, one who favors religious freedoms - We want it all and we want it now. Pragmatic.

                From three different pre-PC dictionaries.

                Of course the winner gets to rewrite the dictionary but going fifty years one can easily find the majority of the status quo conservatives are currently sitting in the White House and the Government Party (Democrats RINOS) of the Congress.

                The outsiders wanting in are now the liberals. Progressive to them is re-instating the Constitution and Religious Freedom has nought to do with DNC/RINO Inc.

                The point is those in power build castles to defend. Those not in power build battering rams

                So those of you who are of the former liberal present day conservative persuasion.

                Except when it comes to scamming and bilking the working classes.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 6 months ago
    I am a huge fan of this. Jefferson imagined even neighborhoods having different rules, and states and municipalities could adopt rules that their citizens think work best.

    It doesn't have to be along the so-called left/right ideological lines, but I would be okay with that. Following the Constitution, they'd have to have free trade with one another, but they could have their own rules. One side would be high-tech developers making Facebook, Google, Epic, and so one, biotech companies, nano-tech, alternative energy. Their schools could focus on creative and critical thinking. Their gov't could focus on charity-sounding programs like children's nutrition and job training. The other side could have the mining, paper mills, factories, agriculture, and so on. They would have schools that teach tradition, memorization, and reading/writing from Bible tracks, all the things people needed for the jobs of the industrial revolution in the 18th and 19th century. Their programs would focus on keeping the poor and desperate segregated and strict legal penalites to deal with them they turn violent, programs that in no way smack of alms.

    Both sides could carry on about how they will be so succesful in their own areas of interest. But they wouldn't fight. The liberal areas would still need to buy coal, paper, and textiles from the rightwing places. The rightwing places would still need new medical imaging/treatment systems, Google/Apple/Facebook products/service, and so on.

    I don't care to predict who would be more successful. It's not a constest. It's about leaving people alone to live as they want to live.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
      What on earth makes you think high-tech development and schools of creative and critical thinking will be on the liberal socialist side? The history of the 19th and 20th centuries, with a few minor exceptions, indicates clearly that the most advancements came from the conservative capitalist side and the socialist "experiments" were hardly friendly to creative and critical thinking.

      If the conservative schools teach tradition, as in prioritizing the history of how this nation and civilization came into being and what it means to be part of it and keep it, rather than dwelling on all the tangential PC crap, then I'm all for it. If the conservative schools teach memorization, as in grade school basic addition, subtraction, and multiplication tables and how to use them as opposed to bogging them down in the bureaucratic procedural methods to do simple math found in common core, then I'm all for it. Your assumption that conservatives are all bible thumpers that would teach reading and writing from bible tracts is simply absurd. Saying a conservative must be a religious nut is equivalent to saying a white person who disagrees with an Obama policy must be a racist.

      Traditionally, conservatives are personally charitable towards their fellow man and your innuendo as to how the conservative side would deal with the poor is unsupportable. The conservative side, however, would not create a giant government run welfare state.

      In a sense, it is a contest, and the stakes are very high and if it's about leaving people alone to live as they want to live, then a choice has to be made whether to belong to the collective of the more liberal section or take ones chances as an individual in the capitalist conservative section.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
      What makes you think that high tech will be in the liberal zone?!? We see companies leaving CA for TX even today!! The conservative zone is likely to have ALL the industries. In addition, it wasn't the liberals who created the new industries; they were based on the discoveries and inventions of the conservatives, starting with ENIAC in the 40s. Without them, there would be no Internet and all that's attached to it. Even the solar cells and windmills were developed by the conservative group; if you don't believe it, go to Holland. So, what you're likely to have is a liberal poverty stricken war zone, and a prosperous, industrious conservative zone.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 6 months ago
        I wish we could try it, not because I care about an ideological chest beating contest but rather to let people alone to live as they want to. Maybe people would create some zone that we can even think of that that would work amazingly well.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      wonderful, and I agree completely -- this is the formula
      which started this nation on the right track! . may the best
      person win, in their area of expertise, and let them exchange
      values at will !!! -- j
      .
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 6 months ago
    This is just silly. A really good example of the loss of rational, logically reasoned thought.

    Keep it up Conservatives, you'll wake up in 2017 with the same kind of nonsense you've lived with for your lifetime.
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