John, what I see in those two examples is small properties with no infrastructure for $30,000 per acre, and they don't include any concessions of sovereignty from the existing government.
They are both in Fiji, imo, too far from the families of the Americans we would hope to attract to Atlantis.
Assuming that tourism is your initial primary industry, nearest airport is 102 miles from Vanua Levu. Have you found any info on what is involved in getting to the islands from there?
Fiji has a history of nationalizing industry and frequent coups. It's 1990 constitution " institutionalises ethnic Fijian domination of the political system."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...
Fiji has only been democratic since Sept 2014, so there is little evidence that will continue. Per an Aussie government site, Fiji government receives about $120 million in foreign aid in total, 52% from Australia. However, China pledged $167 million in grants and loans on 2007.Chinese companies have also invested in mining industry in Fiji.
Military aid is received from Australia, the People's Republic of China.
Army:
2000 troops, 2/3 stationed in Fiji, 1/3 on UN missions in middle east.
Navy:
3 Pacific class patrol boat (Australia, displacement 162 t, length 31,5 m, width 8,1 m, draught 1,8 m, power 2 x 1,050 kW, maximal speed 20 knots (37 km/h), crew 17 man, equipment machine guns 1 x 12,7 mm.
2 patrol boat (USA, displacement 97 t, crew 11 man, equipment machine guns 1 x 12,7 mm)
4 Dabur class patrol boat (Israel, displacement 39 t, crew 9 man, equipment 2 x cannon 20 mm, 2 x machine guns 7,62)
Air wing: disbanded in 1997
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republi...
Some details of military coups also on that link.

I lived through the 60's attempt by O's and Lib's to try this. Floating cities to hidden islands they all failed as feasible concepts. You have to be willing to lose everything and see it fail in five years unless you can make it profitable. These islands are too small. I was a professional land use planner and worked on the Big Island of Hawaii on this problem for the largest land owner on the island.
I have also worked on the tourism problem as the basis of island economies and have a solution which I am just getting ready for a start up. If you guys can put up the 200 million in venture capital money to buy the islands, build the landing fields, docks and harbor, fuel storage stores, housing, medevac, power, water, communications labor supply etc then I can show you that these islands are too small. There is a reason they are vacant of natives. I was on the resort council as a ski area planner at the Urban Land Institute and looked at feasibility studies from all over the world.

I also was headhunted by Disney on taking charge of their undeveloped lands but had not been in a corp. I can show you much more feasible locations that will produce a profit while paying for all the infrastructure and enable you survive.

Just for fun read David McCullough's book Champlain's Dream about the French attempt to settle Canada. The Jurassic Park movies aren't a bad reality check either.

The last piece of land I ran was 55,000 acres. Now I pick apples, cut wood, ski, and write philosophy, but I know how to do it. Have to have learned something in making people happy on remote lands. Hawaii was a good example. Good Luck.

Hi freedom-
Granted, there are some issues with sovereignty and political instability. However, no matter where you go, there will be issues of these natures to deal with. As to the distance involved, for me, it is one of the plusses. The original Atlantis from AS, made itself, basically, technologically separate. Since we do not have that ability at the present time, the option is to do it geographically. There will be no perfect locale for our Atlantis. The best we can do is take all the criteria and see which one matches the most. I guess I'm not as opposed to being in a faraway place. Hell, I'd even take the trip to Mars, if they would let me.

Good thoughts.

I think the idea of an island is rather unrealistic and isolationist. There are many problems associated with maintaining a community in such an environment. Is Atlantis going to be 100% self sustaining? Will the residents be totally independent from the world's banking and finance system and more importantly will they have to rely at all on the world's market place for any goods and services, if so which ones? Having spent 30 years in the submarine force we were able to have nearly and endless source of power (nuclear), and we could make our own water (from seawater) and air (Oxygen Generator). However our ability to remain at sea was limited on how much food we could carry. Additionally our submarine was staffed with a corpsman that could handle minor medical issues but nothing very serious.

Finding a location without the ability to defend it will be a herculean task. I've a feeling that accommodation will be needed. Finding land whether island or mainland that is unattractive to local powers, yet attractive to Gulchers -- not easily to be attained, but I don't think impossible.

To truly develop a space for freedom it only seems possible if it can be set up as a separate country effectively with its own laws. Unless an existing struggling country is at hand that would be suitable this means in my understanding either land not otherwise claimed by any country or outside the 200 miles from existing country limit. A small starter island can be extend using the floating city work done by Japan and China. Another way to go is for a complete seastead approach.

But a Gulch like retreat with suitable protections against outsiders knowing what it is may be more doable. But its continuing survival and lack of detection cannot be guaranteed.

+1, John. I think this effort is vital to survival of liberty.

I really like that you guys are doing this research. Thank you. Now having said that, may I say a few things? While I like the idea of remote, the more remote the better, is Fiji the best we can do? As a nation they suck. I think autonomy is a major issue and should be unconditional, including the ability to protect ourselves.

Could our refuge be somehow inexpensive to get to? By boat perhaps. I would like the ability to bring my tools and other supplies I would deem necessary to build a new life. I don't believe our stay in the Gulch will be short nor easy. The better supplied initially the better off we would be, not to mention independent of the corrupt world.

I know the challenges of this whole idea of a real time Gulch are great and I respect you guys for taking it on I live in the upper Midwest of the US. I have seriously looked at moving to the Redoubt that James Rawles seems to have somewhat established in the upper part of the western states. However, The sheer logistics of packing up and moving to an informal Gulch still within the US borders is daunting at best.

I wish you guys success with this, please keep us informed

Okay, folks. Here it is. The Fiji location of which I spoke earlier. This is a humongous piece of property with all kinds of developmental potential. I know some of you are adamantly opposed to Fiji as a location but, for the life of me, I can't find anything better. I've looked at this from all sorts of angles and there is just too much potential here to ignore. Managed lumbering, aquaculture, tourism, agriculture, industrial. There's even a deep water inlet for maritime operations. Freehold status. The biggest bump would getting the Fijian government to allow sovereignty.

http://exclusiveview.knightfrank.com....

My concept:
Pick a place to start a business with Gulch members being considered as prefered stockholders.

Have you heard of 'strata titling'? Apparently it is where all of the units of an apartment building get recorded as private residences. These can subsequently be bought and sold based on the calculations of the owners.

In Australia we have a self-managed super fund scheme, I think that the best way to describe it to Americans is a 401k controlled by the individual that it affects.


I would like to create an agricultural business that focuses on 'industrial-scale organic agriculture' each resident (+family - multiple generation hetero prefered) would be able to create a productive permaculture garden that sells its extra produce to a cooperative owned food processing facility.
Each 'garden' would be ~10 acres/4 hectares in size.

To get around the need for a Midas Milligan, buying an insurance policy contract that acts like a mortgage - you don't need to be fully funded up front, but the contracts create a pool that can be used as collateral against development finance.

To gain concessions for the business conglomerate, we need to help the state deal with its problems in a constructive manner.

A few months back on the Gulch when this subject was brought up, I wrote up a plan on how to get to an island New Atlantis. I'm sure jbrenner could retrieve it. If not pls adv I will retype it up.

Your Shipbroker-Chandler Extraordinaire

Hi Ho folks. freedomforall sent me a blurb on a possibility: Chatham Island off the SE of NZ. about 250 km or 150 mi.
I contacted the agents handling the property. Took them awhile to get back to me. Upshot is looks like a nice piece of property (asking NZ $5,000,000 or US $3,164,324). Encompasses most of western peninsula (equals an area of about 10 sq. mi. (if my math is reasonable. freedomforall, check me on this, please) Property is agriculturally sustainable and offers some other developmental opportunities. There seems to be a variety of sporting and some cultural activities on the island. Now, if I can figure out how to attach the e-mail download to this, you all can see that at which I am looking. (HA! Correct grammar strikes again.)

http://mail.airmail.net/email/scripts...

I hope this works.

Oh stop it. A small island can be wiped out by a hurricane, and any country with the smallest military and a little gumption/irritation/agenda.

If we are going this route, I'd upscope again and plan for Mars.

Doing a good deed? Nope. This is all for me.

I view squaring away such a population and securing a tangible, resource-rich location with some scope as good for me, and good for the rest of us.

What's the price per buildable area of these two places? I looked into this a year ago, and found even in remote locations it runs in the $10,000 per buildable acre range. That kind of money would be enough to fix up some hotels in a remote location and turn them into a conference center / business incubator / resort / retirement home. I have no idea how to execute that. And getting tax abatement deals in exchange for building it would be another project I don't know how to execute. I'm inspired by the idea though.

The hardest thing, though, is that the human foibles Ayn Rand describes follow you. Peter Keating won't just move there; he'll be on the board of org that builds it. I always thought of that as a problem people would deal with down the road. No. He's there from the very beginning.

Ok, here's one that's off the beaten track:
Chatham Island
http://www.nzfarms.co.nz/2571452
Their description:
"Approximately 1600 hectares improved pasture, well fenced and organically farmed, running over 10,000 sheep, plus a further 1600 hectares in native fern, just crying out for development.
Above average infrastructure with two Lockwood houses, raised board shearing shed and shearers quarters.
Approximately 23km boundary to sea coast, with great fishing and diving."

The website for the property:
http://waitangiwest-station.co.nz/Abo...

Here's something I came across in my meanderings:

http://www.landwatch.com/Jequetepeque...

P'cat, what do you think? A bit pricey but the development potential looks pretty good.

Hi All,
This is great work and the selections are wonderful examples of whats out there, literally thousands to pick from. Like going to the moon the mission is fraught with challenges and dangers but with focus and determination all the physical needs can easily be satisfied.

The elephant in the room is MONEY. " If wishes were horses beggars would ride" Every objection raised, utilities , defense , transportation on and on is easy if you have $$$$$.
How to raise funds , big $ is the trick we need to address to move this from window shopping to action. The only thing I have come up with is some kind of crowd sourcing method , ????

Ideas ???

Here is another link to a discussion along these same lines about a year ago:

http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...

For those of you new to this discussion, here's what took place about a year ago:

http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts...

This is not for me. One hurricane or big wave and we are gone. Agree with others, too expensive and tenuous.

How about Venezuela?

The links I see are only to photos, with no information on the property. Please post links to property details.