Is privacy a right?

Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 7 months ago to Philosophy
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I briefly touched on this in another thread, but I think it merits a discussion of its own.

Is there an Objectivist view as to whether privacy is a right? In her book For The New Intellectual Ayn Rand said, "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy." But I haven't seen any mention of whether she regarded privacy itself as a right.

Is gaining unauthorized access to a website containing personal information an initiation of force? Is releasing this information to the public an initiation of force? Would either action constitute a crime in a society and legal system based on Objectivist principles?


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  • Posted by $ Mimi 8 years, 7 months ago
    Ayn Rand loved the Constitution. Privacy is not named as a protected right in the Constitution, but it is implied throughout. Ayn Rand recognized this, pointing it out in one of her more memorable quotes:
    "Ours was the first government based on and strictly limited by a written document—the Constitution—which specifically forbids it to violate individual rights or to act on whim. The history of the atrocities perpetrated by all the other kinds of governments—unrestricted governments acting on unprovable assumptions—demonstrates the value and validity of the original political theory on which this country was built.”
    I would say a simple case of hacking into a website and then divulging the private information collected would be immoral and criminal. But what if the private information was collected by a third-party with disregard of individual rights and the hacker meant to expose the collection? You got me.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 7 months ago
      Is hacking theft (the unauthorized taking/using of someone else's property)? If so, we don't need to look to the Constitution. We can merely look to criminal statutes. One doesn't also have a right to stolen property, so the hacker who gets the property from the thief is also culpable.
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      • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 7 months ago
        Hello B,
        Would you accept the following?
        Information is value. Stolen information is stolen value. Information about the individuals is their own. Only the individuals can decide with whom to share their own information in return for value, a trade. The traded information in not public, until the individuals give their consent.
        Many individuals crave for publicity. Let them. All the others are entitled to the ownership of their own information, in private.
        It is the government that is the most prominent and an insatiable collector of unneeded information about the individuals. Google is a close second.
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      • Posted by $ Mimi 8 years, 7 months ago
        Ayn Rand had a tendency to see things in black and white. That was much easier to do in her era. In the light of the newer technologies and our propensity to expose hidden truths, we have a spawned a generation of activists and/or consumerists who blur the lines. I often see greys in societal behavior and outcome as well as an unbalanced, imperfect application of the law.
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      • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 7 months ago
        If one intercepts a thief and throws his catch onto the street for all to pick up (while not profiting from that himself), is that "taking possession of stolen property?" If a hacker exposes illegally or immorally collected personal information and throws it out there to bring awareness to the issue, is that theft?
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    • Posted by scojohnson 8 years, 7 months ago
      Agreed, it's implied by the right to no unlawful search or seizure and the free pursuit of happiness, but it's not spelled out anywhere.

      In practice, things that you do or leave in the open and public domain, you have 'no expectation of privacy'. Such as putting something in a trash can and putting it on the curb, there is no expectation that someone else might not dig through it.
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 7 months ago
    The theme of "Anthem" seems to indicate that the author is horrified by the thought of loss of individuality and, by extension, privacy. So I should think that Ayn Rand did in fact believe that privacy is a right.

    As an aside, I certainly wouldn't want to live in a society that doesn't value personal privacy. Hell, I'm pretty upset with the treatment of our rights (among them, privacy) in our republic in this, our 21st century.
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 7 months ago
      If you want privacy, you'd better get off the grid. Any information that a company (or government) acquires about you is their property. If you buy a book and a bunch of other products/services, that is not private; it's public. The company that has that information can use it in any way that it sees fit, because it's their property. If they have millions of customers, they can use big data to analyze their customer base to discover as much about their customers as possible, with the intention of better serving their market(s). We are giving up information about ourselves every day in a myriad of ways. The companies (and government) are merely better able to access and use that information than ever before. One thing we might start discussing is how technology is changing the very idea of privacy (and other Constitutional concepts). In an age when everyone paid cash for what they bought, a database was very difficult to build and maintain. Today, with credit cards and online buying, it's automatic.
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      • Posted by SaltyDog 8 years, 7 months ago
        Make no mistake, Blackswan, I'm working on it. However it's not as simple as it once was. Our ability to pay cash for anything but the smallest of purchase, for example, is being made increasingly more difficult. Another thing, for example, it's been years since I've seen a pay phone. Now I understand that, with the proliferation of cell phones, but if you wanted to make a call without anyone knowing where you are, well, you get the idea. Still I'm hopeful...there are ways.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 7 months ago
    Let's take a look at the aspects of what we deem "privacy".

    The Fourth Amendment outlines the restrictions on the government in much of this regard, though the word "privacy" is never used. It is that unless the government has probable cause, it shouldn't be bothering us in the first place, and that unless they have a specific Warrant, they have no authority to conduct a search of our property (including person, land, or effects - which absolutely in my mind constitutes digital communications). In other words, they should respect the ability and prerogative of a citizen to go about his/her business without the oversight or approval of the government. To me, that's what privacy is about right there.

    We can go on into the Fifth Amendment, where the government's relationship with regard to a citizen is outlined as being one of innocent until proven guilty. What this means in practical terms is that until and unless the government has reason by virtue of suspicious circumstances or behavior to involve themselves in our affairs, it should never go looking for evidence of that trouble. The "big brother is watching you" mantra is a violation of public trust because it inherently treats citizens as law-breakers rather than law-abiders.

    In the classic parallel to Atlas Shrugged, it is the pretense to gain power that the government needs to watch over everything to keep us safe, when in fact we should say that first and foremost it is the citizens of this nation who bear this responsibility. The government should be relegated strictly to a responsive attitude, because that is the only way "innocent until proven guilty" can work. If one presumes the role of active "prevention" a la Minority Report, one must of necessity assume the worst of the citizens rather than the best.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 7 months ago
    "The right of people to be secure in their persons," expresses to me, a right to privacy in the Constitution. Without privacy, a person just becomes a part of the hive, and is no freer than anyone in a collectivist society. Privacy is a manifestation of freedom which is an absolute right. It is the very essence of the word Liberty.
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  • Posted by Zero 8 years, 7 months ago
    Force and FRAUD. Don't forget "fraud". "Unauthorized access" is fraud (i.e. theft) and criminal.

    (We should be sending all those b@$t@rds to prison.)
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
      Indeed. If there was actually penalties to hacking and fraud, then things would get a wee bit better. Just the term "hacking" implies forcing your way into something. Theft. Taking of personal property.I would go with the "Deadly Force is authorized" option, works for nuclear weapons.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 7 months ago
    The very term "privacy" implies individualism and not collectivism.
    Ayn would tell you that life, liberty, freedom, privacy, security and property all fall under the category of individual rights.
    Without one you don't have any of the others and you will soon be consumed by collectivism.
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    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 7 months ago
      Privacy is not well defined. Nor is there any guarantee in reality of "security" which is also a bit of work to define. The right of a reasoning being to reason, choice and act on their choices is the core - not some laundry list.
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      • Posted by teri-amborn 8 years, 7 months ago
        Yes.
        Ayn said that the problem with our political system is: One side argues, "If you want your life you will give up your freedom."
        The other side argues: "If you want your freedom you will give up your life."
        "...Neither side is facing the fact that freedom and life are a the same thing. Without one you don't have the other."
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 7 months ago
    Your title asks if its a right. Do you want to restrict the discussion to Objectivism, or discuss rights as your title states?
    I answered this from the view of the Bill of Rights before.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 7 months ago
      My question is whether privacy is a right, as the term is understood in terms of the Objectivist ethics and its prohibition of the initiation of force. In The Objectivist Ethics, Ayn Rand says, "Man’s rights can be violated only by the use of physical force." In The Nature of Government she includes breach of contract, fraud and extortion as variants of physical force. The issue of violation of privacy, and whether it constitutes an initiation of force, is not directly addressed in any of her writings, as far as I know.
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      • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
        I would say you have your answer. Any gathering of information by force is a violation. So, hacking, even unauthorized surveillance, should qualify. However, anything done on public time or money or equipment, inherently belongs to the public (i.e. Clinton, and the Pennsylvania email scandal) and are not protected.
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        • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 7 months ago
          What force is here in having a camera on? None.
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          • Posted by VetteGuy 8 years, 7 months ago
            I'd say that depends on the location. If it's pointed in my bedroom window, or on a drone flying over my privacy-fenced back yard, I would consider that a pretty forceful invasion of privacy.
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          • Posted by $ nickursis 8 years, 7 months ago
            IMHO, force is more than just brute physical. If someone hacks into a database and steals your personal data, that is a form of force being inflicted upon you to take what is yours and use it. If the gov't has a monitor that can capture your private conversations or pictures, or web use, that is a form of forceful data gathering, unexpected, unusual and undisclosed. That, I think adds up to force used against you. Our concept of "force applied to your person" needs to be expanded and modified to include anything of yours, that no one has a reasonable right, or expectation of having.
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      • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 7 months ago
        Govt. has a monopoly on the initiation of force.
        Where appropriate, Govt. can interfere with one's privacy. See my post below.
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        • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 7 months ago
          No. Government has no right whatsoever to initiate force. That would be a violation of the very reason for having a government in the first place. Government can act to stop initiations of force and fraud and the threat thereof. But they cannot legitimately initiate force per se.
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          • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 7 months ago
            What do you think the police and military are for? Of course govt has to initiate force to protect us.
            Of course, it should be done at a minimum - only for our protection.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 7 months ago
              Maybe you're using a different definition of "initiate force". I think the police and military are for responding to other uses of force, not for initiating force. I suspect it's a definition issue. I think of the person burgarizing a house where no one is home as initiating force and the police as responding to stop them from doing that.
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              • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 7 months ago
                You are mostly correct: Govt. initiates force against those who have imposed force on others. But it may otherwise impose force to protect our rights; e.g. restrict some people's actions to protect others.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 7 months ago
    It really depends on what is meant by the word as it is smeared to cover far too much. It is not so obvious as we get the technological means in all our hands to have a perfect memory of all we see and hear. Is it an invasion of privacy if I have a perfect memory of what I see and hear when interacting with your or viewing say some production of yours? Would it be one if I was just born with a perfect memory? No? Then why is it one if my smart phone extends the power of my mind?

    It is not privacy per se I am worried about as that the government and many non-governmental organization besides think they have every right to interfere in my life and liberty using such information as they acquire. We can't put the information genie back in the bottle. But we can severely limit what can be done to people with the information.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 7 months ago
    my right to my life and my person directly implies the right to
    have my life honored and not invaded or coerced. . if force is used
    to invade or pressure me to obey someone else's will, it is criminal. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ jlc 8 years, 7 months ago
    From a social point of view, I think that privacy is an evolving right - something that we would not have considered important until recently.

    Cast your imaginations back to a small hypothetical Czech town, at some time between about 3000 BC and 1930 AD. Your family has lived in this town for millennia, as have the other members of the town, which is filled with aunts and 2nd cousins. Everyone knows what everyone else is doing as a matter of course. The town is one giant extended family. The idea of an anonymous life is outside of your social expectation.

    Now imagine NY in 1950. You are surrounded by millions of strangers who are indifferent to your welfare and possibly inimical to it. Privacy becomes an issue.

    Until post-WWII, most of the world was rural and privacy was moot in that context because the scope of interaction was small and personal. The FF (Founding Fathers, not Fantastic Four) were much closer to the Czech town than to the Internet and I think that while personal rights were important to them, it did not really occur to them that privacy was one of these rights.

    We are evolving into a society that needs and values privacy and while we can rely on the durable foundation of personal rights to base our laws on, we are really building a new structure and should look at it in that light.

    Jan
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 7 months ago
    The exercise of individual rights, as instituted in the American form of government, requires at least intellectual privacy. Without freedom of thought, liberty does not exist. Objectivism is based on the concept of unobstructed self-interest and action, requiring at least intellectual privacy.

    That being said, once our thoughts or actions extend beyond our private domain (like when they're posted on Facebook, or stored on a "cloud"), privacy ceases to exist. Personal responsibility is required to maintain real privacy. I store nothing on a "cloud", keeping my backup information local, and my Facebook profile contains no private information for myself, my family, or my friends (real ones, not a phony statistic). Maintaining privacy requires personal dedication and effort.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 7 months ago
    The choice of association as well as the choice of self direction are both individual rights from which the right of privacy, non-association, has to be recognized.

    As to placing personal information on a website or any other 'place' where an unlimited number of people can and do gain access, either 'authorized' or 'unauthorized', is simply foolish and government's or business's demand that one do so is the initiation of force.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 7 months ago
    Yes it is a initiation of force when done to anyone whom has not initiated force fraud or coercion. However, initiating force against or because of, attempted, planned or the actions of fraud, coercion
    and intended force is to be permitted.
    This is how the Twelve Visions Party and Mark Hamilton's Prime Law, would look at this scenario.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 7 months ago
    psecure in the privacy of their own homes has been breached not only inward but outward. Once you go on any social media or take part in a ny discussion such as this one that privacy is gone.

    Just one of the aspects to think about and a reason I never indulge in social media. Even here the decision was carefulloy thought out.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 7 months ago
    Yes, I believe so, at least if your contract with the website owner (or any business you deal with) spells this out. It is high time for the "third party exception" in existing 4th Amendment court precedent to go away.

    While we're at it, it may well be a good idea for lawsuits over privacy issues to become private matters themselves unless the winning side wants them exposed. Until then they only lead to the Streisand Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisa...
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 7 months ago
    This is a really touchy subject I think. If you want it private, KEEP it private. Dont tell anyone and dont publish it anywhere.

    But this attitude will surely cut down the ability of a society to collaborate, so the rules need to be pretty carefully crafted.

    Emotionally, if someone hacks into my website or emails, I am pretty angry and want revenge on them. In the wild west, this would have been handled personally, first with talk, and then with violence. Hopefully, we can come up with rules that are fair and enforceable.

    In the meantime, its SPY vs SPY- hire your own hackers to make your site safe, and to teach a lesson to those who cause trouble to others.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 7 months ago
    philosophically....you are begging the question...and are using the "stolen concept"...and by asking the question you also suspend your right to privacy...any claim to the contrary of "privacy" invalidates the idea...besides Objectivism, i refer you to Hobbes and Locke...
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 7 months ago
      What concept, exactly, am I stealing? And where, in Objectivism, does it say that a right can be “suspended” by asking a question? The slogan “all property is theft” is clearly a “stolen concept,” since the concept of theft presupposes the concept of property. However, in the current discussion, the concept of privacy does not presuppose the concept of rights. In The Virtue of Selfishness, Ayn Rand says, “A ‘right’ is a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man’s freedom of action in a social context.” Her definition says nothing, pro or con, as to whether privacy is a right.
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      • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 7 months ago
        Privacy is part of one's freedom and property.
        Rand: "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy." Rights have to include privacy.
        But see my post above for exceptions.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 7 months ago
    One has a right to property. But privacy is a much broader term. Where privacy must be compromised to protect your or others' rights, then no - it's not a right. E.g. if you withhold information in the name of privacy that is needed to catch a criminal, then Govt. has a right to extract that info from you. Where info gathering required to stop terrorists requires Govt. to collect data on you, then you do not have the right to privacy of that info.

    Note also that if you share information on public sites, you have relinquished your privacy of that info.
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