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An Objectivist Sense of Resignation

Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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In my conclusion that our nation's sliding over the abyss, and that no political leaders who know enough (or care) to do anything about it will be put into positions of power, I am finding that I'm feeling a sense of "couldn't care less" that eclipses any of my past similar feelings. I'm done watching debates. I don't read articles about candidates. I'm avoiding facebook now that the banter is starting up there. No intention to vote. I flat out don't give a *&%. Anybody else out there have this same feeling? I am seeing a big uptick in threads here about Trump, etc. Do some of my fellow Objectivists still think that we might get a president who could turn this ship around? Or, are you finding yourself hiding in a valley more, getting ready to draw a dollar sign in the sky?


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  • 14
    Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
    The inherent problem is that most people are attracted to run for government office because they think that the government can "do things". It's really hard to get someone to run for office to "not do things".

    We see this mindset all the time when the Democrats want to pass a program to control yet another part of the economy. When the Republicans object they are demanded to give "their plan", which means their plan to control that part of the economy. The idea that the best plan is "no plan" is anathema.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      William, you make a valid point. There certainly is a thought in government that "something must be done. We must do something."

      The GOP seems unwilling to even consider proposing that the government back off and let the people have some room. Now, we have this boa constrictor on the country. Exhale and it tightens. Wiggle and it tightens. It always tightens...then, the lights start going out.

      I have made the realization that I cannot mindlessly foist this system on my kids. They deserve better. The world is their oyster...not just this patch, this tax farm.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
        The best example of "something must be done" I keep coming back to is Jessica Dubroff. She was a 7 year old student pilot trying to set a new record for the youngest pilot to fly cross country. In 1996 she, her father and instructor died in the attempt when they took off in bad weather in Wyoming.

        Obviously a sad thing and something that would provide caution to anyone else trying to do that -- and they would know about her. But it was a single event, not a national problem. Our skies weren't filled with 7 year olds recklessly flying planes.

        But Congress felt the need to act and passed legislation the "Child Pilot Safety Act" which prohibits someone without a license or medical certificate (essentially 17 years old) from being in control of the craft if they are trying to set a record. They can still fly, just not set records.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago
        I believe the "do something" mentality comes from the media, not from government per se. Crises, real or phony, sell papers and TV ads, so naturally if there are two candidates and only one of them is screaming "We need to do something!" all the cameras are going to be pointed at him/her.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 8 months ago
      yours is a very valuable observation, William, and I would like
      to propose that, say, if the Ds advance an initiative to require that
      a new iPad be bought for every 4th grader in the nation, to be used
      in their education, then the Rs should advance an initiative that
      public school taxes be made optional, including the cost of iPads,
      allowing for home schooling or private schooling with the tax dollars.

      it might be poorly received by many, until they saw the dichotomy,
      but it would be a real alternative to advancing government
      control and debt. -- j
      .
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  • 10
    Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 8 months ago
    I think it was Voltaire who, responding to some world situation said something like, "I can only tend my own garden."

    That said, I've personally gotten involved in my county Republican party and, with a lot of other liberty minded activists, have taken the party over, much to the chagrin of the state apparatchiks. We have turned it into a bottom-up organization that holds state and local politicians accountable and actually encourages discussion and input rather than waiting for marching orders from the likes of Boehner and McConnell.
    It can be done, but decades of complacency got us into this mess and decades of patient, dedicated action will be required to clean it up.

    I urge you to not give up and get involved in any you can, however small.

    Politics goes to those who show up.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      Thanks for that.

      Possibly my favorite quote is from Voltaire. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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      • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 8 months ago
        Then you'll like the motto of the group, E Clampus Vitus of Yreka, California:
        Credo Quia Absurdum Est = I believe it because it is absurd.
        For deep thinkers, here's a platitude to consider:
        If the dog barketh up the wrong tree and the coyote howleth at the moon, think, then, of the predicament of the goat. (Pot smokers: Heavy, man)
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  • Posted by $ rainman0720 8 years, 8 months ago
    I'm of the belief that we've passed the tipping point. I don’t think there’s any way to recover; we can only hope to rebuild.

    A few years ago there was a quote floating around often (incorrectly) attributed to a former Czech President about Obama and the electorate. While there's a lot of good stuff in it, my favorite line from this quote is this: "Blaming the prince of fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince."

    The problem is not with the government; it's with the people who keep giving us this government election after election after election.

    Our local newspaper has a "reader comments" section called Let It Out. A few years ago, someone wrote in with this: "The problem with our country is that those of you who vote for a living now outnumber those of us who work for a living".

    Yeah, Abaco, I share your "couldn't care less" mindset. It's almost impossible not to. While every revolution may start with one man, that man has to have the power to make his revolutionary ideas stick. Our political system has evolved into a system that squashes those revolutionaries before they can do any good.

    I'm simply waiting for everything to collapse. I'll vote, because it's one of the very few social obligations or moral responsibilities I have. But I also know it’s an exercise in futility. We (as a nation) prove that in election after election; meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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  • Posted by Ibecame 8 years, 8 months ago
    I don't want to sound depressing, but the problem isn't with the Presidential candidates, Congress, or Government. Its the people within the government. Everyone wants to blame the government. Thats like blaming the bridge for twisting, bending and finally collapsing when it was the trillions of drips of water rushing together down the river that caused the effect.

    I think I first ran across this in one of Heinlein's books years ago; "People ultimately get the kind of Government they deserve." Maybe as a whole we just are not evolved enough for the concept of government. After all, every government throughout history has followed the same cycle. Unfortunately, we and our children are at this point in the cycle. What will happen next is anyones guess: War - external or civil, collapse, oppression by our own government leading to collapse or revolution, a coup - usually military. In other words, the usual ways governments execute their demise (yes, I missed about a dozen possibilities). Some of these may be eliminated either because this is the first technologically dependent society (and that it self may cause the failure), and others because of the proliferation of personal weapons (although I would not be surprised if people gave up their weapons under duress).

    The truth is; "It is what it is." The thing to do now is put together a plan to deal with it.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 8 months ago
      Pre dates Mencken but used by a number of people to good effect. Ultimately it's the voters that seem to want war with Iran and they will prove it in some few months by voting for the Government Party 95 our of a 100.

      As to the civil collapse or a revolution featuring the military there is no need. If they do decide to honor their oath of office it would be a counter revolution. Moral, honorable, and legal.

      "The US is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." Frank Zappa

      "Congress Is the US's only true home grown criminal class." Samuel Clemens

      And as to my characterization of the once to often national charade as street theater

      "Politics is the entertainment branch of industry."

      and putting it in musical terms. "You can't always write a chord ugly enough .....sometimes you have to rely on a giraffe full of whipped cream" Zappa. Now that had to be about Congress.
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    • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 8 months ago
      who's plan
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      • Posted by Ibecame 8 years, 8 months ago
        I am not sure I understand your question, but in most cases the correct "Objectivist" answer would be "your plan". Assuming you decide you need a plan.
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        • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 8 months ago
          you state a "plan" should be put together. so, whose plan wil it be?your's or mine or who else should develop a plan.then who agrees with it? destroying the country has been easy even though it has taken 150/170 years. today the country has basically an uneducated population that is being hand fed and the bulk have no incentive or even understand what that is. yiour initial comments I "grok".
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          • Posted by Ibecame 8 years, 8 months ago
            Sometimes this outline gets a bit confusing. My comments got pushed down quite a bit but I opened this "Reply" to allosaur in answer to his comments. I was expressing that in my opinion things were already to far gone, and that it seems like everyone misses the fact that it is "the People" that allow the government to become what it is. I was suggesting that he (or anyone else reading my comments) put together a plan to adjust for the coming downturn in society. I don't know what that downturn will bring. But part of my plan includes keeping myself appraised of how things are going and trying to figure out how to adapt to the changing times.

            I don't want to be riding the "Comet" while it is being pushed through a tunnel by a "Smoker", to use an analogy.
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      • Posted by DeanStriker 8 years, 8 months ago
        In collapse, and with governments out of business, the only "plan" will likely be "none". Folks will be working things out as needed. A plan might be good, but I've been working on that, and have given up on the idea, as it seems always to head for Forcing others. That's the last thing we need!
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    • Posted by Animal 8 years, 8 months ago
      Regarding your Heinlein quote; I think he (or you) are paraphrasing Mencken:

      "Democracy is the theory that people know what kind of government they want and deserve to get it good and hard."

      We're getting it good and hard. No doubt about it.
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  • Posted by dukem 8 years, 8 months ago
    This particular thread is to me the most important topic ever. It goes directly to my mind and heart and reflects my deepest fears and most enlivening dreams. I seem to be surrounded by those who think all is well, nothing to be concerned about, and it wouldn't matter anyway. In that arena, giving up seems to be the best way out. Yet that seems so cowardly, and there are things and ideas for which taking a strong stand or commitment is not only appropriate but mandatory. My answer seems to change daily, and simply moving elsewhere geographically (my magic solution so far) has not been effective. At least there are those, particularly in The Gulch, who understand the problem and have the same thoughts, and perhaps at this late point in my life that is enough. I revere the ground of being of those in the Gulch who express what I have not been able to express.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 8 months ago
    Its a real problem, here is my solution. None of the candidates are expressing ideas which imply knowing what the problem is and how to fix it. Their problem is we, their constituents, aren't telling them we want clear solutions even if not popular on NPR. So do the opposite, speak up be active but be consistent and reasonable directly to the candidates. Ignore the facebooks and TV but talk to the candidates, that will create direction in the primaries. Action does away with the blues.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      I recently had a series of meetings with my State Assembly member. It was to, literally, teach him about the medical science around a law that will force medical treatments on children. He, a senior Democrat, listened intently, and took notes. The law passed, but to my surprise, he voted against it. We bumped into each other briefly since the vote and I got a real sense of gratitude from him, respect even. He even opened up to me a bit about the guff he received from others in his party (which is sad, really). But...he got it. He understood. I punctuated a meeting with the simple statement, "Let's do the studies that are really missing here...BEFORE we force this on people." He's an attorney. I was speaking his language as best I could, using basic ethics. He got it. He's a good man, but he's a democrat. So, his hands are somewhat tied. I respect him for, literally, putting his political career at risk. But, those who voted for it probably have put more at risk.

      That's where I still care - children. What our nation is doing to our children is really criminal. The proven ethical standards THAT WE KNOW WORK are being ignored when it comes to children. I don't think it's an accident, either. After the kids, guess who's next.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
      Its also ridiculously early for a presidential election to go into specifics. The problem IS philosophy, and none of them really understand that. All we can hope for is a Trump type who will just say what they think regardless of political correctness. I would have been happy with Joan Rivers for 4 years. She wouldnt have held back and the country would be better off for it. The other candidates either are clueless, or perhaps a bit too timid (Ben Carson), or just not electable ( Rand Paul).
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      • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 8 months ago
        Of course its ultimately a philosophical problem but getting agreement by philosophers on a coherent philosophy that can be adopted by a politician is not going to happen in decades. As a philosopher I can tell you Kuhn was right, philosophy only changes by death of philosophers. So the real issue is how to move the politicians by their values, ie their constituents. One constituent making a case on the campaign trail or in the Washington office is very powerful especially if they have community standing. I.ve done it but the basis has to be rational and produce a positive result in the political world.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
          Over half of the constituents WANT freebies the other half pays for, however. Thats the basis of the gridlock we see in washington. Until that changes, there isnt much hope for real change. It will just be a matter of whose ox gets gored this election cycle
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
    As has happened all throughout time, when people are prosperous for a long enough period, they slide into apathy and begin to ignore that which lifted them to greatness in the first place. Why do we never find any dynasty on earth built upon the principles of freedom and equality which last more than a short time? Because the prosperity those systems bring gets lost on those enjoying it! If there is no struggle to achieve, there is no satisfaction in the gain and no appreciation! I believe that part of this is the misguided internal drive that many parents have to make their childrens' lives better than their own. What they misplace is that it is not "stuff" which is the measure of better, but how the individual values the things they have. At the end of the day, it is the internal viewpoint which matters far more than their measure of wealth precisely because wealth is only a measure of value - not value itself.
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    • Posted by DeadRight 8 years, 8 months ago
      Handing down a world view that is closest to the truth is a large part of good parenting. Most don't even bother. They just train their crumb crunchers to be as bad as themselves.
      Under Carter, people did not work and did not eat. Under the odious one, people did not work and they eat. Debt signifies the lack of return of service to their fellow human being. Eating but not producing. "money" is merely a chit that demonstrates you had done something productive for another. That has been pushed aside, temporarily until the debt comes due and they start another war to cover the loss.....
      Love and teach your kids well. Teach them the truth, both the difficult and hard to find truths.
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  • Posted by bobcorlett 8 years, 8 months ago
    You have SHRUGGED like I did when our present president was re elected. Lack of capitals on purpose.
    You will find in time you are mentally in GALTS GULCH and it's Wonderfull feeling.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 8 months ago
    I do wonder at times if I am refusing to give up or refusing to admit the obvious. As I watched the debates the other night I heard some really good ideas. Then I remembered I have heard them pretty much every election cycle.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      To me...it feels like the Oval Office and Congress are really just vestibules to the operation that's really running the country. Mainly, the real leadership is a handful of major corporate contributors with one floor of the building reserved for vociferous, leftist, special interest groups - squawking for scraps here and there for appeasement. That's how I see it. It's not going to change until, like a vacuum cleaner consuming itself, there will be nothing left to suck off the body for fuel.

      Atlas Shrugged was very accurate in that I don't remember it getting into the partisan fights within government. That's because, based on what I see, any such fights are just theater (the debates, etc.)
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    • Posted by Ibecame 8 years, 8 months ago
      It seems to me that in a movie or a book I saw something to the effect of "If any part of your uncertainty is a result of conflict between your heart and your mind--follow your mind."

      Of course a lot easier said then done. My heart to wishes for a solution, as have many before us, only to watch one government or empire rise up, have an enlightened phase, and then crash into history. It has finally occurred to me that governments are only one percent of the problem. For the first time I didn't listen to the debate because I know that whatever is said will not be acted upon (it never is) and it won't change the momentum that has built up and is shaping history. The mental definition of leadership in the average persons mind is wrapped around "benefits and promises."

      Although historians are very poor at recording the why things happen; from what I have been able to learn a lot of Empires followed the same path when the heads of government learned to make promises that they could not possibly fulfill, began excessive control, excessive taxing, and bestowing benefits to stay in power. At some point the producers stop producing and the system crashes.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
    The TV series the walking dead is not just TV entertainment. Replace the walkers by the hordes of entitled people that aren't getting their desires met by a bankrupt government and you get a real life look at our future under socialism. I think its popularity is because people recognize intrinsically that life as we know it under socialism is unsustainable. I have wondered why the series is so popular, and I think this is why.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 8 months ago
    Abaco, I adopted my state of resignation when I read We The Living
    at age 15. . the immense contrast between living and existence,
    operating as a societal slave under others' control, just
    got to me. . I became a kind of geek, devoted to knowledge
    and real producer-values like food, shelter, clothing .......
    yes, the resignation has become more painful along the way.

    as I see it, you have to fight for life every day. . soooooooo many
    want to get a free ride that you have to hold them back
    as best you can, by every action every day. . it's a tough way
    to live, but facing reality beats the alternative!!! -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 8 months ago
    There has been a long concerted effort to bring about, pardon the Carter reference, this malaise and apathy. Its the long orchestrated push that the globalists and the leftists infected on this country to cause Americans to lose all faith and confidence in self governance. Since we are supposed to be "of the people" and "by the people" losing confidence in self begs "who will lead." Combine our open border acceptance, our multi-cultural mindset, our racial unrest (and manufactured bigotry as a result of news),our moral decline, and the vaporization of our national prosperity, any rational mind would have to say "to hell with them all" and go into cruise control mode with blinders on. Their goal is for Americans to gladly welcome foreign laws and global governance, to remove the Constitution or relegate it to a children's fantasy and accept whatever the "knowing" elite determine to be reasonable and fair for everyone - since we can no longer govern ourselves (as evident in the total mess we've made of the country, no).

    I've been writing about this for years..its here, its in the open, and things will hit the fan in my lifetime.

    Suggestion, don't quit, don't stop caring, and do what you can to help restore Constitutional order in the country at every level of government. If we don't its gone, and there is literally no where else to go.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 8 months ago
    I doubt we'll elect the person who will turn the ship in the direction we want, largely because we are in the minority. We may however, do some degree of course correction.

    The best thing is if congress and the president are opposite parties, and neither can run with their agenda, because both are big government. If they disagree, and do less, we keep more freedom.
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  • Posted by SantomR 8 years, 8 months ago
    Abaco, I think you have the same feelings as most of us out here. The only reason Trump is doing so well is because the GOP Establishment is not much better than the Democrats. All we can do is come together behind true conservatives and hope for the best. Sure we are pissed, and nothing we do may matter in the long. But make sure you go out and vote for a true conservative at the very least even if you have to write his name in on the ballot!
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 8 months ago
    I agree with you sentiments entirely; except while we agree we still have this churning in our stomachs about what is going on and are resigned to the demise unfortunately.
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  • Posted by mspalding 8 years, 8 months ago
    On the other hand, as an old guy I remember people in the 70's saying almost the same things. Our nation was sliding into the abyss, politics was hopeless, and people were buying 'survival condos' on the west side of the Rockies. And then the threat of nuclear war was imminent. I don't see how giving up on everything makes your own life better. I would be aware of general trends, but focus on what enhances your life. The doomsayers will always be there and one day they may be right. But if you give up your own happiness due to worry, you are not right.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      I appreciate that. I think that's what I'm doing - focusing on what I can. Social media indicates that the average schmo is obsessed with politics at this time. I think that's a futile waste of time.

      I recently wrote an article for my newsletter explaning that three things really matter: your health, family and money. These things matter and focusing on them can make life better. Not focusing on them is a mistake. As I watch this pres campaign unfold I find myself watching the citizens more than the candidates. I just see sheep, easy marks anymore. They're getting played by the political machine like a snake oil salesman plays a crowd.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 8 months ago
    My fervent hope is that we will once again find ourselves in the position our country was in in 1787 -- where there is so much civil unrest that government can't operate, so they have to come back to the people for a new constitution. Hopefully the next one will last longer than this one did, because it will close the loopholes that were used to break this one.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 8 months ago
    It is "We the people" that must change and get others to change; and make our votes, (voices) so Overwhelmingly heard it won't make any difference if the 180° opposing side cheats. We have the tools...it's called the internet.
    I understand withholding your emotional investment, it's frustrating, but now is not the time...when the American Dream needs us the most.
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  • Posted by DeanStriker 8 years, 8 months ago
    Abaco's feelings match mine, except that I've not yet reached the point of "couldn't care less" only because the Global Great Collapse remaining before us is the lone last hope for mankind.

    We saw the last gasp for hope eradicated with Vote2012 when we watched 98% of our voting fellow-men go for the greater evil because there was so little difference between the candidates O or R, neither of which knew enough or cared enough. So the Proponents of Force at last became wholly in charge, voted in by a populace who also saw no alternative to more-of-the-same.

    Governments have always had, and used, it's powers of Force against both their own populace and against all other "nations", and always throughout history governments have Failed, only to be replace by (guess what?) - yet another government! The Collapse will be horrid -- no fun at all, at least all of the Rulers will be Out of Business! Then mankind gets one last chance for human beings to opt out of being Governed, ever again! One last hope for Individual Sovereignty and thus Real Liberty?
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  • Posted by JBW 8 years, 8 months ago
    Winning the Unwinnable War
    America's Self-Crippled Response to Islamic Totalitarianism

    EDITED BY ELAN JOURNO - CONTRIBUTIONS BY ALEX EPSTEIN AND YARON BROOK
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  • Posted by tasine 8 years, 8 months ago
    I totally understand your attitude! I have for some years now not read a newspaper, watched a TV news or talk show. I am a strong conservative and quit the Republican Party when they chickened out re Obama's vetting. It doesn't represent me and never did actually. I began blogging, primarily re individual responsibilities and individual freedoms. Have taken heat for it - but EVERYONE who favors true individual freedoms takes heat for that philosophy. In blogging I have said the same things so often it makes me disgusted, but I continue doing so because there is a slight chance in hell that I MAY reach some mind numbed individual that I can wake up.

    Like you, I am not as emotional about losing my country as I was for a LONG time. I have decided to wait until the nation falls into chaos, and that is when I believe there is a chance to develop voluntary anarchy, which I strongly favor. Our Constitution met its match with Obama's angel who got him into office to do the angel's will. The enemy of America found the Constitution's flaw and the left wing felt it now had the strength to defeat America and is doing so. What I think they do not realize is that they have milked it dry, and when they finally come to that conclusion, they will abandon it and then we can fix their screwups. To do so requires EVERY right wing good citizen we have, so I beg you to stay on board for what is coming.......it MAY turn out to be our salvation. You are certainly NOT ALONE!!!! My partner and I have a website I hope you will visit, and everyone is welcome to come by and browse at: http://www.no-ruler.net
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 8 months ago
      Very interesting commentary there, tasine. I will check the site. I was talking with a long-time friend of mine at lunch today and expressed to him why I'm still here (he's going to check out Ecuador). I'm here to make money. When they strangle things down where I can't make money I'm gone. And, making money is not easy.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 8 months ago
    The best Republican is so much better for the country than Hillary or any other Leftist potential nominee that it behooves one to not only vote but to learn the candidates and strongly promote the best one(s). At least we may be able to significantly slow down the progress toward full statism in this country.
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