Prison meals tailor made for Muslim prisoners??
Posted by Non_mooching_artist 10 years, 2 months ago to Legislation
Hmm, NO! You're in prison, not a spa! No halal meat for you!! No way. I'm NOT going to allow my tax dollars to give any comfort to someone who wants me dead.
Or, we could feed them the same meals we serve our troops. A MRE a day, coffee and water and one hot meal when convenient or possible.
These people WANT to live in the 12th century, I think we should let them.
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There are distinctions that need to be considered with this question. The first would be if we're talking about POW, or criminals convicted under civilian law. As a nation that considers religious practices in their treatment, if it is a legitimate prisoner that practices aa religion, traditionally we try to accommodate their dietary requirements.
For POW's we have always treated them humanely in the hope that the enemy will also do so to our men. Of course this has seldom in fact been practiced by our enemies.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Over the past couple decades efforts have been made to subvert this American norm and suppress those in favor of the differences found in other cultures, placing those as superior to the American norm.
Doing so WE (those who maintain American cultural distinctive's) are quickly becoming an endangered species as children are taught these foreign cultures in school at all levels. AND they are taught that these distincttive's are superior to their own.
Now Fred, I kinda like the culture I grew up in. I've lived in a number of different countries and have yet to find one that is superior to ours and I really don't like our kids being taught that they are. We dealt with garbage from our daughter for a number of years about how wonderful a certain "culture" was until we lived in that country for a year. At the end of that period, we had no more problem with her about it. I don't need to say what culture it was, but the sterilized view she was taught in school was not reality and was not the whole truth.
On our return we placed our kids in a private school and had no more problems like that. As an adult she's well adjusted and apart from a taste for spicy food she avoided the extremes she was being taught.
Melting pot, not separate distinctly separate cultures is what has given us our strength, we had best return to that.
Fred
Anyway....the contents of "humanitarian pouched meals" are designed not to clash with any religious dietary restrictions. Possibly a menu suggestion at least.
Of course, I couldn't agree with you more. you of course had no way of knowing that I am an immigrant from East Germany. I arrived in the United States in December of 1959, two years after escaping from East Germany with my father, mother and sister. Yes, even before the wall was built, you had to sneak out of East Germany and God forbid if you were pulled of the Subway from Potzdam to West Berlin.
In those days most immigrants were from Wes tern Europe and the first thing most of them did once here was to learn the English language. This of course is now +no longer fashionable. What you wrote is all too true. I tend to relate it this way. Before 1970, Western European immigrants came to the U.S. to become Americans. Now they all want to maintain their lifestyle as they lived in their home countries and slaughter a goat in their front yard. Believe me, no one understands what you wrote more than I do. as a matter of fact somewhere o0n the net for one of the online magazines is a column I wrote to those very points you made in your post.
I am happy for you that your daughter found her way back to sanity and now understands what a precious culture we have here. of course I hope that you are keeping in mind what the liberal progressives are trying to do to this country, that is to turn it into a third world nation. They are well on their way.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Is there some other country I can illegally move to, get into the criminal justice system (American Style, where they do get justice, the victim gets the shaft) and I can get everything I want at no cost? I must be doing something wrong. Why am I being productive again?
As a second thought, we should let the families of those wronged by the criminals decide whether they get the proper meals.
On third thought, let the families of the men incarcerated prepare and bring the food to them, at there own expense.
I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I'm tired of my hard earned income be taken and spent on such things. I tired of some criminals living better (Cable TV, gym facilities etc.) than some citizens of the US.
If You Can't Do The Time, Don't Do The Crime.
The best way I've seen is to have the prisoners work on the prison farm, like a field hand. this raises food for the entire population at absolute minimum cost to the state and thus the tax payers.
They were treated as any other employee would be. Same pay, same breaks, working conditions, etc. The advantage lay in that they actually had an incentive to keep their job.
Jan
Bread and water is muslim approved, isn't it?
If the state has an interest in them practicing religion in jail, then it should be allowed. I can specifically see this in the case where there are prison programs that have arguably helped prisoners reckognize their crimes and become better citizens. The problem with Islam in prison is that we are creating a new generation of hardened criminals turned into radical islamists. This religious practice not only has no benefit to the state or are society but runs contrary to our interests.
Enough awreddy!!!
2. Halal dietary law is very much like Kosher dietary law.
3. The purpose of the manner of killing is to have the still-living heart of the animal pump as much blood as possible out of the body before it dies, not to create suffering. I have watched a Halal sacrifice of a sheep in southern Iran. Once the slice was made, the body shuddered for just a moment, and then there was no sign of pain after that. A very sharp blade is used for the slaughter and (as I have learned by cutting myself with a very sharp blade) there is little to no sensation of pain until some time after the cut occurs. Many different cultures use this means of slaughtering animals. The US method is hardly more humane -- bashing them over the head with a blunt object.
Humans seem to have more respect for the animals that provide meat than do other carnivores. Ever try to explain to your cat that she should not torture her dying mouse or bird?
Islam's rigorous prayer schedule is the first structure they take upon themselves. Many have callouses on their foreheads from doing this - something you seldom see among native Muslims in those lands.
Men who never learned to read and write in English devote hours to learning a little Arabic to read some of the Qu'ran. It is a good way for them to spend their time in prison.
The civil status of prisoners is ambiguous. They lose their right to vote and to bear and keep arms. They do not lose their right to trial by jury to the right to petition the government (which holds them) for redress of grievances. They do not lose their right to freedom of religion. Their Ninth Amendment rights are highly arguable. Privacy and the right to travel do not exist for them. They do have a (limited) right to communications, letters, phone calls, etc., and that includes access to legal counsel.
Prisoners suffer rape and always have, both from other prisoners as well as from guards. Find out from a women's advocacy group about the pregnancies and abortions and babies born in prisons.
We call the most basic theorem in Game Theory "The Prisoner's Dilemma." It is a known strategy to reward betrayal with trust TWICE if you need to, in order to redefine the conflict as a cooperation. Cooperation is everything in any society and prisons are a society. If you cannot gain compliance from the prison population, no level of control can be enough - you might as well kill them all the way China does for tax evasion, monetary crimes, economic crimes, and victimless crimes. Most of the people in prison - 60% to 80% depending on how you read and interpret convictions - were incarcerated in the Drug Wars.
Remember: with Islam, it's really not about death; it's about the ENJOYMENT of watching SUFFERING. It doesn't matter whether it's an animal, an Infidel, a true non-believer (atheist, which are the first ones Muslims go after), or a woman, or child. For them, watching suffering, or thinking about the suffering that happened (halal meat) gives them the damn near same feeling as if they watched pornography.
Not sure about the Kosher deal...I thought it was about pickles. :)
On the other hand there are accounts, videos and photos showing the haphazard way it is done in Indonesia, Egypt etc. where a number of men are slabbing or clubbing an animal which is poorly restrained and struggling. The pics I have seen do not show any laughing but are still gruesome.
Islam copied from Judaism and Christianity. Hallal took the forms but not the ethos of kosher, eg. the sharp knife, but not the reason behind the rules eg. the animal to be healthy, not frightened, and not to suffer pain.
From reading, as well as from http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/40... I learn that killing for food was given a lot a thought in the kosher rules, Buddhists and vegetarians have their own solution. Animal slaughter in the west leaves much room for improvement (see the work of Temple Grandin). The usual practices in Muslim countries are hardly good examples.
However, I do agree with you on what the money-changers (todays banksters) did to Jesus Christ only 3 days after he upset the tables IN THE TEMPLE & chewed them out for defiling the temple. But, that is the nature of the bankers ~ sadomasochism
Where's the venom-filled nonsense I speak of? Is it of my own creation? Or is it I'm pointing out the true nature of Islam? Oh, that's right: pointing out the ugliness (the truth) isn't welcomed, thus act quickly to discredit the person with the astute perception before the masses get word of it.
You erroneously accuse me of taking vengeance out on whom? Whom am I seeking vengeance? I seek vengeance against no one. You may want to read that again.
Not even against muslims. You get that? Why? Because muslims themselves are DECEIVED. Since you're an atheist, and therefore, you don't believe anything happens after death, this leaves you out of the conversation between the beliefs among muslims & christians. Why is that? Well, do you believe what's in the Bible to be true? No you do not. Do you believe in what's in the Koran to be true? No you do not.
That said, stop implying you're on the side of the muzzies and stick with your belief that there is no God and that's that.
What I find ghoulish is the sound made by Daniel Pearl as Moslems carved his head from his shoulders.
The slaughter under the dietary rules of Halal and Kosher are virtually the same. While your theory of the enjoyment of of the ritual of Halal may have some validity, there are other reasons for it. Both types of slaughter must also be done under the supervision of a religious authority of both religions. It's ironic that both versions of beliefs are so similar in so many ways.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
I never knew. The slow killing of them is wrong. You get the job over with & move onto the next phase. You don't sit there & watch & enjoy with erotic tendencies to bathe in the suffering while praising God. Point to me the scripture (Old Testament, since we are speaking about Jewish tradition) where it says that. More on Islam when I respond to your next comment below.
To answer your question seriously, I would think it has something to do with the crimes for which they have been committed. For instance, I doubt that too many Jewish prisoners are in prison for wanting to kill everyone, while the Jewish prisoner more likely will be there for some less serious crime.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Ah, I replied before reading the article. This isn't about Gitmo detainees, but about prison inmates. I've no problem accommodating the religious requirements of citizen prisoners. Bear in mind, that many of their Constitutionally protected rights are already forfeit, so even if they were denied their religious practices, it wouldn't be an issue.
I think the same way about this. Unless we assign some market value to the opportunity for righteous indignation, the cost of meals isn't significant.
Getting back to the "broken windows" waste idea, I actually think not accommodating people's religious beliefs is small broken-window problem that contributes to bigger problems. Even though it's all just imaginary friends to me, religion is something that ties people to their families, even if they don't believe the superstitious elements. If we're serious about religious pluralism we must accommodate people's religious beliefs.
Who was the "perfect" muslim? Mohammed. What kind of muslim did Mohammed say is the best muslim? A radical one.
You really should read about the life of Mohammed to get a better idea on exactly his views on anyone who isn't a muslim. Perhaps the most ridiculously thing ever said about Islam came from Prez Bush said in 2002: "Islam is a religion of peace." ~ He was Owned.
You are correct in your assessment above, but we must also keep in mind that a statement like " Islam is a religion of peace." tends to be a politically correct statement coming from a government official. I'm not stating that to make an excuse for Bush, but to remind us of the perceived notion that we shouldn't insult other peoples religions. I of course believe that government leaders should tell the truth as we see it without concerns for the feelings that might be hurt. Truth is always the best path to follow.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Have you ever studied Islam? Have you ever lived in an Islamic country? I have, in both instances. I can tell you that it is FAR different than what the Bankster, bought-and-paid for MSM drones tell America Islam is about.
Now, I'm not saying I'm an expert. But I have (since 1996) studied enough of Islam that I got physically sick. This has prevented me from studying it further. Though, since 2000 on and off, I have at times, been able to laugh at the absurdities of what's written in the Koran (Mohammed's dim view/twisted understanding of the Old Testament & New Testament) concerning many of the major names in the Bible.
That said, no one can ever say 'I can get away from Christianity by running to Islam' OR 'Islam is perfect, islam is the way, I know, it's all that...' etc WITHOUT FIRST reading the sources of Koran ~ that's right, the Bible AND other polytheistic practices, e.g. Zoroastrianism (that were scattered across the regions at that time) which was originally founded in Iran (Persia) so as to compare the validity of what Mohammed said. Remember, Islam came about 570 years after Christianity and a couple thousand years after the Old Testament.
I prefer NOT to go on professing what I have discovered through my own research; I'd rather have people discover it own their own.
Anyways, my point to the comment I disagree is, if you truly knew what Islam really is, you would know that Islam itself is insulting to EVERYONE. In order of insulting: atheists, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus & everyone else after that.
To insult Islam is to point out the truth. Pointing out the truth will lead to your death. So, if you're afraid of insulting Islam, then that means you're afraid of telling them the truth about the voluminous hypocrisises, inconsistencies & outright lies that are contained within the Koran. You cannot tell me the Koran is correct and the Bible is wrong if you haven't read the Bible.
Here's a few things for you to consider:
Who was the FIRST muslim? Clue: If you say "Mohammed" you're WRONG.
Do you think it's true that angels actually prostrate themselves before man?
Everyone SHOULD know about Noah's Ark, it's dimensions, etc. Do you believe it had sails on it? Mathematically, do you believe the dimensions of the Ark that is mentioned in the Koran, do you believe it would float if you were to re-create those dimensions? (it was tried with the Old Testament description and yes, it does float)
Why did Cain kill Abel? Was it really because Cain wanted Abel's wife, who was in fact Abels SISTER, because she was more beautiful than Cains wife, who was also Cains sister? (Yes, with Islam, there's nothing wrong with incest)
Now what do you think of Islam? I find Islam to be incredibly insulting & most perverse. I challenge you to do your own research to discover the TRUTH about Islam.
We are not at war with the Taliban. Afghanistan may be at war with the Taliban... irrelevant.
The Crusades are upon us again. You can pretend we're not at war with Islam, but if you insist, you'll need to learn to recognize the Adhan...
A true distinction to keep in mind, however, the terrorist don't consider that distinction. because of that fact, we must attack the terrorist among Muslimd with all the force available to us.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
I was having trouble finding accurate stats on the Afganistan war. But in Iraq, since 2001 and late 2013 this site says 130,000 that includes all civilians AND combatants. I'm not sure where you are getting "hundreds of thousands of children."
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Generally, a person is on an Objectivism forum as they support personal liberty, capitalism, logic, individualism, property rights, small government, etc.
In Arabic the word Islam means 'submit', 'surrender' or 'submission to the will of God'. It may have have other meanings, perhaps puzzlelady is more familiar with Arabic than my dictionaries.
I ask, why is a person who supports Islam on an Objectivist forum? It seems to me that an atheist would have a special problem with 'submission to the will of God'.
I will answer my own question- a non-Muslim, if they are a collectivist leftist who wants sustainability equality and the other dreams of the new governing class would support Islam as a ally in destroying capitalism and individual freedoms faster than they could themselves.
Oh, personal hostilities - You people need a reality check, what are you doing on an objectivist based forum ?? Puzzlelady...
Just what is your problem with us squashing a poisonous insect that bit us and killed all those people in NYC with his full help and endorsement?
However, how about completing the thought?
" Posted by Hiraghm 22 hours, 52 minutes ago
Genocide works for me, although I don't believe "Moslem" to be a genotype. "
Now, are people *genetically* Moslem? Then I don't think you have to worry about genocide as a solution to their aggression.
"Total War" is NOT genocide, btw.
I'm not sure where you saw people here supporting genocide? I agree that the war in the middle east is contested here. Most all the comments I've seen are against drone attacks. But tactics of war have changed. It would have been a better plan to have had the legislative branches vote for it to be official. We have a right to self defense. and if you are in a country where your leaders have openly promoted and plotted to destroy us and our property, it's going to be ugly.
Why is that the Islamic community is so tight lipped when it comes to these attacks against us. Recently, the Boston bombing-why didn't influential Muslim leaders IN THE US speak out against such a senseless tragedy. Why do they not denounce the practice of jihad? Why did not the Muslim community speak out loudly and clearly in Great Britain over the brutal killing of the young soldier? Why?
How can you call the followers of Sharia law peace loving? The rights for women and girls to learn to read and write and pursue education?
Our problem always was setting up the infrastructure for resources we need and giving the keys to the operations and pay billions to a bunch of despots who certainly did not or do not support the freedom of their own people. we're paying the price for that folly.
There are always casualties in war. You are completely ignoring all the infrastructure and schooling we tried to provide in both Afganistan and Iraq. What we should condemn is the fact we allowed a crazy and inhumane system of government to be put in place when we pulled out. Those laws are so de-humanizing as to treat people like animals. and we let them.
I am trying to remember the greatness of the region in its Golden Age promoting culture and science. They saved much of the greek and roman texts and knowledge when the Christians were burning and suppressing. It surely cannot be peaceful benevolence that leaves generation upon generation living as they did back then.
Rand in the Playboy Interview:
"PLAYBOY: What about force in foreign policy? You have said that any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany during World War II . . .RAND: Certainly.PLAYBOY: . . . And that any free nation today has the moral right—though not the duty—to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba, or any other “slave pen.” Correct?RAND: Correct. A dictatorship—a country that violates the rights of its own citizens—is an outlaw and can claim no rights.PLAYBOY: Would you actively advocate that the United States invade Cuba or the Soviet Union?RAND: Not at present. I don’t think it’s necessary. I would advocate that which the Soviet Union fears above all else: economic boycott, I would advocate a blockade of Cuba and an economic boycott of Soviet Russia; and you would see both of those regimes collapse without the loss of a single American life."
Our troops are trained to do one thing - win. And when you give them orders to go into a foreign country and act as police you are not only not using them effectively, you are setting them up as targets for any maniac. A very high percentage of our lost troops have been from this effort to not hurt the feelings of the locals.
I don't want to get into a long dissertation on military tactics and use of force by it, so let me just say that the only way to win any war is to kill the other side until they beg you to stop.
If you look at every conflict (barring Grenada) since WWII, you'll see that in the end we lost, not because we were defeated, but because we elected to stop fighting and come home. Korea has been a mess, Vietnam was a mess, Regan allowed us to kick cuban butt in Grenada and we won that, them bush I stopping desert storm at the point we should have kept fighting to win. Then his son blew the victory in Iraq by turning into a "police" action - doomed to fail and capped it in Afghanistan. Obama simply does not have a clue, like EVERY liberal president we have had for 70 years, he does not want to win because if he does, he will be a bad strong man instead of the metrosexual wimp he is.
Of the former, there are essentially two strategies: terrorize him into giving up, or making it so expensive (in terms of economy or of losing interests elsewhere which he can't give proper attention because of your conflict), that he sues for peace or surrenders.
Of the latter there are two strategies, which are actually related. Deny him the resources he needs to fight (oil, manufacturing facilities, cadre for his legions, etc) or destroy so much of his current fighting force in such a short period of time that he can't recover.
Most sane strategies are a case of all of the above... when you want to win.
Sweinfurt was a city that had heavy industry and where there were ball bearing, automotive, and airframe factories. The ruin from the Allied bombing Champaign can still be seen in some areas and the impact craters from huge bombs are visible in the nearby countryside where they made holes so deep that the farmers never bothered to fill them in, they just farm around them.
Bamburg was a university city around 50 miles from Sweinfurt that dates from 1100AD and is home to some truly unique architecture. It was also the seat of a pope at one point and there is a magnificent cathedral and several abbies there. (A side note; The Deep Dark Smoked Beer that is produced by one is the best I EVER tasted)
Bamburg had no industry but there was a small military garrison on the outskirts of town. In all of the war there was only ONE bomb ever dropped on the city and it's assumed that this was actually an error since it landed downtown and destroyed a Guesthouse.
The 3rd Infantry Division (both my fathers division and mine) fought to Sweinfurt and it was there that they sat up their German home to this day as far as I know. The 3rd ID also comtinued to fight into northern Bavaria, through Bamburg and down through Nuremburg, and points southward. A second half of 3rd ID split off in Bamburg and fought German soldiers up the Fulda Gap into the heart of Germany and into Leipzig. Not too far from Berlin they were notified that the surrender had been arranged.
Thirty eight years later I arrived in my Dads old outfit commanding a new battery as we fielded a new missile system I'd helped develop.
I believe that most German civilians would have surrendered long before our troops ever crossed into the Reine Valley, BUT, no war is ever over until the leaders of that country know they are beaten and are about to be destroyed. Ending battle sooner as we din during Desert Storm only allows them time to regroup and to come back at you later. As we saw with Saddam Hussein funding and backing the al-Qaida terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center and killed 3500+ Americans. They never stopped fighting even though we did.
I'm not saying I might not misspell a word now an then because I do, but not usually in the case of a name I typed THAT many times.
Were you military, dependent or civilian?
I'm willing to be friends with anybody, but when you kill my countrymen... *regardless of whatever excuse you use*, there is no longer any need for you or your compatriots to continue breathing.
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Benjamin Fowler laughed. "Doctor, you keep asking me to see your point of view, which is based on ethics: You never see mine, which isn't. I never claimed the human race was superior to Moties-in ethics, or intelligence, or anything else. I only claim it's my race, and I'm charged with protecting human interests." - The Mote in God's Eye
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puzzlelady, you keep expecting me to see your point of view, which is based on ethics: You never see mine, which isn't. I never claimed Christians or Americans were superior to Moslems-in ethics, or intelligence, or anything else. I only claim they're my people, and I'm devoted to protecting American interests.
I hope we understand each other now.
When I was young and studying history, it was always "Moslem".
I also didn't know that New York City was a Moslem homeland. But as their goal is (and has been for over a thousand years) global Islamic domination, I can understand how they might think so.
Forgiven? I neither want nor need their forgiveness.
You forget how we got Japan to "come around"; and Japan is our "partner" after decades of waging economic warfare on us. We surrendered half of Germany to the not-so-tender mercies of the Russians, and the Russians are not our friends, or they would already be aiding us in bringing the Iranian regime down, rather than supporting it.
Mowing down one regime after another is ultimately successful. What we have been doing is not that; we've been making our soldiers servants of our enemies, rather than masters. That's not a good way to win the submission of a vile enemy.
The "winning hearts and minds" thing is only possible with a free populace in the enemies nation.
I hate the Taliban: the brutality, sexism, and religious extremism. I just don't know if "war" is the vehicle to stop those things. Maybe it was. I wasn't in the meetings with President GW Bush.
If there's one thing the extremists wanted, IMHO, is a "war" over religion. We have a "war" and some people like to fancy it a "war between religions." That takes major twisting of the facts to get us there when one side claims to have no established religion.
We should never have teamed up with the northern alliance; we should have used them to knock out the taliban from power, than placed an American governor-general in power, surpress all resistance, and use it as a staging area for the other side of the pincer for crushing Iran between Afghanistan and Iraq.
Islam is at war with the western world. Think, at risk of invoking Godwin's Law, of Hitler. He was at war with the world, and his intention was to dominate the entire world. But he wasn't exactly sending troops into downtown Chicago, was he? Not yet he wasn't.
Islam is at war with the world with the goal of total Islamic domination of the globe. And I don't hold with that. Neither do a few hundred million others.
I don't want a war over religion. I want to finally, once and for all, end the threat of Islam.
So for now I agree with you on what we should do, although the politics and tactics I would use are different. We should have treated Iraq like Japan during WW2, although the nukes may or may not have been necessary the premise is the same. You're facing a nation whose culture is at war with ours. We shouldn't of tried capturing or killing saddam, we should have had him surrender. It helps reduce the insurgents willingness to fight knowing their leader has laid down his arms. Then we should have built them a Constitution and told them to follow it, without shipping any material over. It's their country let them reconstruct it.
We should really flex our muscle in this issue, and target whatever keeps the leaders of all these groups involved in the fight and destroy that. You have to destroy what their fighting for.