I question whether we should even be at war with the Taliban. The Taliban refused to turn over suspects in the 9/11 attack, so they became the enemy and the Northern Alliance... well the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I wonder if we could have gotten religious and political leaders from around the world to negotiate getting the Taliban to release all suspects to a neutral country like the Netherlands. This _probably_ would not have worked b/c some Taliban officials would have secretly helped the suspects get away. Also, trying them the Netherlands, makes it seem like they're war criminals, and that means there's some reason to have a discussion of the "war". There is no war. The crime was like someone shooting a guy while robbing a store. They had political and religious excuses, but every lowlife criminal has a story. They should have been sent to NYC, applied for a change of venue to an upstate court, and sent to jail with other people who killed-- they all have a story of how they killed for a righteous cause. Working with the Taliban probably wouldn't have achieved my desired result; it's just an interesting alternate history.

I hate the Taliban: the brutality, sexism, and religious extremism. I just don't know if "war" is the vehicle to stop those things. Maybe it was. I wasn't in the meetings with President GW Bush.

If there's one thing the extremists wanted, IMHO, is a "war" over religion. We have a "war" and some people like to fancy it a "war between religions." That takes major twisting of the facts to get us there when one side claims to have no established religion.

why do you say Moslems-I know you are making a distinction here, but it is not modern

Well said.

All war should be total war. Why bother going to war if you're going to hold back?

The "winning hearts and minds" thing is only possible with a free populace in the enemies nation.

Have you read "Nothing less than Victory" by John David Lewis? It's a great book that talks about major wars in history and how concrete victory can be assured.

Well said!! And true on all points. I remember feeling so proud of our troops in Granada, and impressed with their swiftness of action. Decisive. Imagine that....

You need to understand that soldiers must have clearcut directions from the political leaders that placed them into battle. We have not seen this since WWII, except for Grenada.

Our troops are trained to do one thing - win. And when you give them orders to go into a foreign country and act as police you are not only not using them effectively, you are setting them up as targets for any maniac. A very high percentage of our lost troops have been from this effort to not hurt the feelings of the locals.

I don't want to get into a long dissertation on military tactics and use of force by it, so let me just say that the only way to win any war is to kill the other side until they beg you to stop.

If you look at every conflict (barring Grenada) since WWII, you'll see that in the end we lost, not because we were defeated, but because we elected to stop fighting and come home. Korea has been a mess, Vietnam was a mess, Regan allowed us to kick cuban butt in Grenada and we won that, them bush I stopping desert storm at the point we should have kept fighting to win. Then his son blew the victory in Iraq by turning into a "police" action - doomed to fail and capped it in Afghanistan. Obama simply does not have a clue, like EVERY liberal president we have had for 70 years, he does not want to win because if he does, he will be a bad strong man instead of the metrosexual wimp he is.

puzzlelady,
I was having trouble finding accurate stats on the Afganistan war. But in Iraq, since 2001 and late 2013 this site says 130,000 that includes all civilians AND combatants. I'm not sure where you are getting "hundreds of thousands of children."
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

'You people' Have seen this expression before .. ..
Generally, a person is on an Objectivism forum as they support personal liberty, capitalism, logic, individualism, property rights, small government, etc.
In Arabic the word Islam means 'submit', 'surrender' or 'submission to the will of God'. It may have have other meanings, perhaps puzzlelady is more familiar with Arabic than my dictionaries.
I ask, why is a person who supports Islam on an Objectivist forum? It seems to me that an atheist would have a special problem with 'submission to the will of God'.
I will answer my own question- a non-Muslim, if they are a collectivist leftist who wants sustainability equality and the other dreams of the new governing class would support Islam as a ally in destroying capitalism and individual freedoms faster than they could themselves.

puzzlelady,
I'm not sure where you saw people here supporting genocide? I agree that the war in the middle east is contested here. Most all the comments I've seen are against drone attacks. But tactics of war have changed. It would have been a better plan to have had the legislative branches vote for it to be official. We have a right to self defense. and if you are in a country where your leaders have openly promoted and plotted to destroy us and our property, it's going to be ugly.
Why is that the Islamic community is so tight lipped when it comes to these attacks against us. Recently, the Boston bombing-why didn't influential Muslim leaders IN THE US speak out against such a senseless tragedy. Why do they not denounce the practice of jihad? Why did not the Muslim community speak out loudly and clearly in Great Britain over the brutal killing of the young soldier? Why?
How can you call the followers of Sharia law peace loving? The rights for women and girls to learn to read and write and pursue education?
Our problem always was setting up the infrastructure for resources we need and giving the keys to the operations and pay billions to a bunch of despots who certainly did not or do not support the freedom of their own people. we're paying the price for that folly.
There are always casualties in war. You are completely ignoring all the infrastructure and schooling we tried to provide in both Afganistan and Iraq. What we should condemn is the fact we allowed a crazy and inhumane system of government to be put in place when we pulled out. Those laws are so de-humanizing as to treat people like animals. and we let them.
I am trying to remember the greatness of the region in its Golden Age promoting culture and science. They saved much of the greek and roman texts and knowledge when the Christians were burning and suppressing. It surely cannot be peaceful benevolence that leaves generation upon generation living as they did back then.
Rand in the Playboy Interview:
"PLAYBOY: What about force in foreign policy? You have said that any free nation had the right to invade Nazi Germany during World War II . . .RAND: Certainly.PLAYBOY: . . . And that any free nation today has the moral right—though not the duty—to invade Soviet Russia, Cuba, or any other “slave pen.” Correct?RAND: Correct. A dictatorship—a country that violates the rights of its own citizens—is an outlaw and can claim no rights.PLAYBOY: Would you actively advocate that the United States invade Cuba or the Soviet Union?RAND: Not at present. I don’t think it’s necessary. I would advocate that which the Soviet Union fears above all else: economic boycott, I would advocate a blockade of Cuba and an economic boycott of Soviet Russia; and you would see both of those regimes collapse without the loss of a single American life."

That's right. Rules of engagement and generally human decency prevent it.

They should put Sheriff Arpaio in charge of them.
Bread and water is muslim approved, isn't it?

That "infrastructure" you claim was in place was that of fear. My friend who is from Iraq, who happens to be a Christian, would vigorously refute your claims. Family members disappeared overnight, they had things "stolen" by the local friends of Saddam's. If you were stupid enough to ask for restitution, something else would disappear. They lived in constant fear of Saddam's thugs. They were also trapped during Desert Storm and the deprivations they endured are chilling. Plus the disappearances continued. Don't think to distort the facts. There are too many here who know otherwise.

Apparently, he wasn't immune to the swinging of the watch either.... 8-/

An interesting post from puzzlelady. The person claims to be an eye-witness and I accept that. Note- 'a traditional slaughter' so a special occasion.
On the other hand there are accounts, videos and photos showing the haphazard way it is done in Indonesia, Egypt etc. where a number of men are slabbing or clubbing an animal which is poorly restrained and struggling. The pics I have seen do not show any laughing but are still gruesome.
Islam copied from Judaism and Christianity. Hallal took the forms but not the ethos of kosher, eg. the sharp knife, but not the reason behind the rules eg. the animal to be healthy, not frightened, and not to suffer pain.
From reading, as well as from http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/40... I learn that killing for food was given a lot a thought in the kosher rules, Buddhists and vegetarians have their own solution. Animal slaughter in the west leaves much room for improvement (see the work of Temple Grandin). The usual practices in Muslim countries are hardly good examples.

Re: stargeezer,

Of course, I couldn't agree with you more. you of course had no way of knowing that I am an immigrant from East Germany. I arrived in the United States in December of 1959, two years after escaping from East Germany with my father, mother and sister. Yes, even before the wall was built, you had to sneak out of East Germany and God forbid if you were pulled of the Subway from Potzdam to West Berlin.

In those days most immigrants were from Wes tern Europe and the first thing most of them did once here was to learn the English language. This of course is now +no longer fashionable. What you wrote is all too true. I tend to relate it this way. Before 1970, Western European immigrants came to the U.S. to become Americans. Now they all want to maintain their lifestyle as they lived in their home countries and slaughter a goat in their front yard. Believe me, no one understands what you wrote more than I do. as a matter of fact somewhere o0n the net for one of the online magazines is a column I wrote to those very points you made in your post.

I am happy for you that your daughter found her way back to sanity and now understands what a precious culture we have here. of course I hope that you are keeping in mind what the liberal progressives are trying to do to this country, that is to turn it into a third world nation. They are well on their way.

Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com