Ayn Rand, Abortion, and Planned Parenthood.

Posted by Eudaimonia 9 years, 9 months ago to Politics
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Kevin Williamson of National Review did a follow-up to his piece which I posted here yesterday.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/...

In this current piece, again on the Planned Parenthood atrocity (my word), he takes a shot at Planned Parenthhood apologists by referencing Rand
"Why not have a Fast Freddy’s Fetal Livers Emporium and Bait Shop in every town large enough to merit a Dairy Queen? If you are having some difficulty answering that question, perhaps you should, as some famous abortion-rights advocate once put it, check your premises."

Some people have taken this line to also be an implication of Rand.
Me, I'm not sure, there's a few things I disagree with Rand on, abortion being one of them.

But, what is Rand's view on abortion?
Here is a link the entry in the Ayn Rand Lexicon.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/abo...

I think the most relevant portion is this.
"A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months."

In Rand's day, that's what abortion was.

Now, I'm no doctor, but I doubt very much that organ tissue can be harvested from a first trimester embryo.
I speculate that Planned Parenthood was harvesting exclusively from late term and even partial-birth abortions.

What Rand would say about this is also speculative, although we can infer from her words "One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy..."

So, Objectivists, what say you?

Disclosure, my personal opinions on abortion - the human animal is a biological machine, as such it has core programming (instinctual drives). Maternal instincts are some of the most powerful any animal possesses, even stronger than Self-preservation or Species-reproduction. As such, I believe that when a woman has an abortion, regardless of the trimester, her maternal instinct kicks in at some level - automatic, unstoppable, irrevocable, unaffected by popular opinion of what abortion is supposed to be. As such, I believe that when a woman gets an abortion, she is doing deep and permanent psychological damage to herself. The existence of groups such as Silent No More lead me to suspect that my opinion is correct. What is the percentage of women who are psychologically damaged by an abortion? Who knows, and with today's Lysenko "scientists" I doubt there will be any unbiased research done. Regardless, until women who are considering an abortion first get counselling on the (what I believe) strong probability of psychological damage from the procedure, I can not be anything but against it.

This disclosure is also open for debate on this thread.


All Comments


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  • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree, khalling, and once a woman has made that difficult moral decision I don't understand how she could regret it later, unless the decision to have an abortion was the wrong one for her to make in her circumstances. If the decision was correct there would be no reason to regret it.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do care about the philosophical implications of bad definitions. And as for inalienable rights that can be assigned to sentient human life, I agree with her definition. However, as for the field of regenerative medicine that is my career, while such specimens are not worthy of rights, the cells are capable of all of the biological characteristics of what everyone but Objectivists agree upon as "life". By your definition, my field would have no reason to exist; however, by my definition, my field can revolutionize much of the aging process. If I am able to extend your life or make your senior years more enjoyable, have I not provided something of great value?
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't think so narrowly; we are talking philosophically "irrelevant", and that is all that is important when talking morality.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's uniquely human which is why the question of whether it deserves protection as other humans do is relevant.

    The problem is that there is a continuum of existence for that individual collection of genetic material through adulthood. Even after birth it does not qualify as an independent rational member of society until years of effort have been placed into protecting and nurturing it.

    There are two points in this development which stand out. The first is when the organism can continue to survive, with assistance, if taken from the mother's womb, although that process can be significantly invasive as to the mother's rights. The second is at birth when someone else can take over care without imposing a medical procedure on the mother.

    I'm not sure when it's a meaningful sentient life.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Tissue engineering definitions are indeed not philosophical. Based on your statements, it is clear that you think that philosophy trumps biology (and perhaps any other science). On that, we will forever disagree.

    You are correct in saying that Ms. Rand would not have defined life in the way that I did, or in the way that the rest of society does. It is precisely this reason as to why I have described Ms. Rand as "clever". In both her definitions of atheism and life, she has constructed her own definitions in such a way that are self-consistent. While the question of atheism is inherently unknowable, the question of life is not. Life has the characteristics that I described earlier. Sentience is not a requirement for a life, although adaptation to surroundings is.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It may be irrelevant to you, but as someone who does this for a living, the precision of this definition either validates or invalidates my career. I value what I do. If you do not, then I will gladly sell my services and products to those who do. If you die from not getting that medical procedure, I will feel no guilt, as you did not wish to provide value for value.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There certainly was context. Fetus is not human.
    What moral hierarchy? All human beings have equal rights and responsibilities. included is the right to do whatever he/she wants with his/her body.

    A fetus is not a necessary consequence of sex; a woman is not morally required to keep it.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am not criticizing Ms. Rand whether or not she had an abortion, but I am curious if you have more details regarding that she "sent home" for the money to pay one. I hope that was a loan that she paid back.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I said no psy scaring NECESSARILY. And that has nothing to do with my moral view here.
    I agree - and implied such - that those who do not sufficiently think through their decision as well as their moral principles are more likely to be scared.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is not difficult when definitions are so well constructed as Rand's; you know exactly what she means, and you can see the error in other def.s. Can't worry about the naysayers: they generally aren't interested in the philosophical implications of bad def.s.

    Tissue engineering def.s are not philosophical; she would not have defined life your way if there was such a thing.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If people getting abortions had to pay the full cost of the procedure themselves, their decisions might well have a different conclusion. As an analogy, the number of people signing up for Obamacare as an inexpensive alternative to their prior healthcare coverage would have been minimal, were it not for the subsidy that they are getting from us.

    Rush Limbaugh has correctly stated that liberalism is a series of easy choices. If society makes such choices even easier by subsidizing them, then that requires my unwilling participation. If people choose abortions and pay the full amount, I will tell them politely that I disagree with their decision, but at least I have not had to provide sanction to it.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, isn't that sad - and wrong. But there are many laws that do not protect property rights.
    The "scandals" could be prevented.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That was a very perceptive observation. As a creator, doing anything that would be anti-life would be a serious contradiction.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That is not what "separate" means. In addition, sex does not necessarily cause pregnancy - seldom in fact when precautions are taken.
    One is not morally obliged to keep the fetus - if that is where you are going.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My younger daughter will likely have grandchildren. My older daughter has said that she will not have kids. I will be happy without grandchildren. Shrugging will be easier without them.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I understand that position, but the only thing that distinguishes that unique collection of cells from every other species unique collection of cells is that it has other elements of the code that also make it human. Snowflakes night skies and the embryo of every other animal are similarly unique.

    In addition, what makes that unique combination more precious than all the ones we decided not to allow to proceed (e.g. condoms, etc).

    Unique, yes. A meaningful, sentient life to be taken, no.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Again, I find this argument a convenient combination of independent issues. I do not believe for one second that abortions are not economically viable without selling fetal tissue.

    Use of the fetal tissue and taxes to pay for them are unrelated to whether abortion is morally inappropriate and should be illegal.

    A completely separate issue is whether there should be legislation limiting the use of fetal tissue. Personally, if productive use can be found for this otherwise waste material, I have no issue with its use. This is a separate argument.

    I understood you the first time, but the combination of these two issues is like considering a theif's use of stolen items in the decision regarding the legality of theft. Irrelevant!
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So the question is whether or not Objectivism is nothing more than a repackaging of Thomas Hobbes' cynical philosophy, e.g. "The condition of man is a condition of war of everyone against everyone." It's self-deceptive to dodge moral issues by flippantly dismissing such things as nothing more than an artifact of obsolescent religiosity. Atheist Humanists would be offended to be equated with an amoral view of the world.

    If, in my case above, we decide that the right of an individual to make choices has primacy over personal responsibility for the life of another human, then abortion on demand, at any stage of fetal development has to be the Objectivist position. Ayn Rand herself obviously would disagree with this absolutist position, since she drew the line at the first trimester.

    My point in this issue of abortion is that it isn't as simple as drawing arbitrary lines so we can safely ignore the moral dilemma. If the Objectivist view is that moral contradictions can't exist, then Hobbes was right, at least for Objectivists: "Life is brutal, nasty, and short."
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    yes, we are creators. Be a creator in a spot. One of my greatest passions is counseling women out of that "spot"
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it's pretty clear that Rand had an abortion and that she "sent home" for the money to pay for one.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    when I recently met Winterwind-yes, it was EPIC- she moved the wizard and herself away froma crop of kids. She was clear (as a teacher) that it was the parents she was removing herself from. We watched as the children ran OVER the place. I still want grand children
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