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Honey or Vinegar, which is appropriate when arguing

Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago to Culture
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Some people complain about how I argue and that I show anger and disgust. They believe I should take the advice of the saying “you will attract more flies with honey than vinegar.” So when discussing Obama or Environmentalists I should say they are misguided. I should patiently lay out the facts and not say that Obama is a thief, liar, and he is pushing ideas that killed over 200 million people last century. And when discussing environmentalism I not point out that Rachel Carson lied about DDT, that she is responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people, that they want to put people like me in jail for telling the truth that global warming prophets have lied repeatedly about the temperature data. Or that I should not say Obama lied when he said you could keep your doctor, that there are in fact death panels and a good friend of ours is being denied a cancer medication because of Obamacare. I should not point out that the communists such as Obama want to steal everyone’s retirement account or I shouldn’t call them thieves and I should not complain about their desire to tax people’s wealth. I should stay quite when they call me racist and say all our problems are the result of white European males. Or I should not point out that environmentalists want to kill 5.5 billion people and I should not call them evil for this.

It seems to me that they can have several motivations for wanting me not to point these out or not get angry about them. One is the belief that by talking nicely to people like Obama, Rachel Carson and their supporters you can convince them of the error of their ways. While pointing out that they are evil and despicable will turn them off. The fallacy in this approach is that these people are reasonable or have any interest in reason. The Jews could not have talked Hitler out of the gas chambers and ovens. Perhaps one Jew might have been able to save himself, but they could not have stopped Hitler by sweet talking him. The same is true of Stalin and Mao. Now they might argue that Obama is not Stalin, but they would be wrong. The US is a police state and while this has happened over time Obama has accelerated it, and if he had the power he would be happy to round up all the white European males and put them in concentration camps. He had been clear that he agrees that people who do not swear allegiance to the Global Warming gods should be thrown in jail. He has shown that he believes it is just fine to use the tax system to destroy political opponents. He is evil and you cannot use logic, reason, or sweet talk to change him or his associates.

Two is the belief that if you have reason, logic and evidence on your side there is no reason to get emotional about people who want to kill off 95% of the world’s population, or want to destroy the world’s economy with fake science. I call this the Spock fallacy after Spock on Star Trek. It is irrational to not show emotion if you are faced by unspeakable evil. It would be one thing if this was being advanced by a crazy street person, but to see it advanced by people high up in government and academic positions is particularly horrifying and the only logical reaction is anger and disgust.

Three is the belief that other people are watching my conversations and therefore I need to appear to be the nicer person in the debate. For instance, I am having a debate with a global warming advocate and they suggest the data has never been manipulated or they suggest I should be put in jail for not believing. I am supposed to calmly disagree and say their intentions are worthy, they are just wrong. A third person watching this exchange is most likely to side with the person who is morally disgusted, not the one trying to play nice.

The problem with the world is not that I point out the irrational evil movements that are being propagated, or that I show anger and disgust at these movements and their proponents, it’s that not enough people are mad about these issues.


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  • Posted by Mamaemma 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would bet that a lot of us Gulchers have known what it is like to be the "evil" one in the family. I did. I don't delve into your psychology, but I respect your mind. Thank you
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are not to delve into my psychology, but my dad would plan the most outrageous trips or food or whatever and then demand we all agree that it was wonderful. But when I pointed out that he had put too many ingredients in the food that did not mesh, or that eating at 10:30 at night was not reasonable or that taking an RV trip where dad did gemology in every small town while we sat in the RV waiting for him was not fun or fair, I was the evil one. My mother and siblings agreed, but I was the problem for pointing it out.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You'll find it under 'One ID' law that DHS in enforcing. As I understand it, after the first of the year, 2016, If you state doesn't give you a DL with biometrics and a Gold Star, you can't board a plane without a current Passport.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, if you insist. I'll have to find my kilt and sporran. I think that's the last time I had the rum.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Could you please expand on or provide a link as to "need papers to fly across state lines". I'm a techie and a good searcher...all I could find were a few links about animals and minor kids. Sorry for any inconvenience, but I'm so aghast at the very idea...or did I miss something in your post?
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. While I prefer calm, reasonable discourse, if somebody wants to bring anger and yelling into it, so be it. I can take it...my standard of "walking away" is when the anger and yelling become irrational and pointless to engage further.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 10 years, 2 months ago
    Vinegar, without doubt. You don't use honey to fight cancer, and the ideas we are fighting are so much worse. The people you want to attract want the truth and cold hard, facts. And the people who want to be fed honey, don't matter.

    I don't recall seeing much, in fact, zero, honey in Atlas...and that book did OK...
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  • Posted by Mamaemma 10 years, 2 months ago
    Please allow me to correct myself, db. Your whole post is sweet. I live to hear statements like you have made, and I hear them very rarely.
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  • Posted by Mamaemma 10 years, 2 months ago
    Your first paragraph is pure honey to me, db! There is nothing sweeter than to see the truth!
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If only those men and their muskets were still here. Celebrate the Oath Keepers, Cliven Bundy, and the Oregon Miners. Even if they lose, they've had an impact.
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