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Honey or Vinegar, which is appropriate when arguing

Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 2 months ago to Culture
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Some people complain about how I argue and that I show anger and disgust. They believe I should take the advice of the saying “you will attract more flies with honey than vinegar.” So when discussing Obama or Environmentalists I should say they are misguided. I should patiently lay out the facts and not say that Obama is a thief, liar, and he is pushing ideas that killed over 200 million people last century. And when discussing environmentalism I not point out that Rachel Carson lied about DDT, that she is responsible for the deaths of over 100 million people, that they want to put people like me in jail for telling the truth that global warming prophets have lied repeatedly about the temperature data. Or that I should not say Obama lied when he said you could keep your doctor, that there are in fact death panels and a good friend of ours is being denied a cancer medication because of Obamacare. I should not point out that the communists such as Obama want to steal everyone’s retirement account or I shouldn’t call them thieves and I should not complain about their desire to tax people’s wealth. I should stay quite when they call me racist and say all our problems are the result of white European males. Or I should not point out that environmentalists want to kill 5.5 billion people and I should not call them evil for this.

It seems to me that they can have several motivations for wanting me not to point these out or not get angry about them. One is the belief that by talking nicely to people like Obama, Rachel Carson and their supporters you can convince them of the error of their ways. While pointing out that they are evil and despicable will turn them off. The fallacy in this approach is that these people are reasonable or have any interest in reason. The Jews could not have talked Hitler out of the gas chambers and ovens. Perhaps one Jew might have been able to save himself, but they could not have stopped Hitler by sweet talking him. The same is true of Stalin and Mao. Now they might argue that Obama is not Stalin, but they would be wrong. The US is a police state and while this has happened over time Obama has accelerated it, and if he had the power he would be happy to round up all the white European males and put them in concentration camps. He had been clear that he agrees that people who do not swear allegiance to the Global Warming gods should be thrown in jail. He has shown that he believes it is just fine to use the tax system to destroy political opponents. He is evil and you cannot use logic, reason, or sweet talk to change him or his associates.

Two is the belief that if you have reason, logic and evidence on your side there is no reason to get emotional about people who want to kill off 95% of the world’s population, or want to destroy the world’s economy with fake science. I call this the Spock fallacy after Spock on Star Trek. It is irrational to not show emotion if you are faced by unspeakable evil. It would be one thing if this was being advanced by a crazy street person, but to see it advanced by people high up in government and academic positions is particularly horrifying and the only logical reaction is anger and disgust.

Three is the belief that other people are watching my conversations and therefore I need to appear to be the nicer person in the debate. For instance, I am having a debate with a global warming advocate and they suggest the data has never been manipulated or they suggest I should be put in jail for not believing. I am supposed to calmly disagree and say their intentions are worthy, they are just wrong. A third person watching this exchange is most likely to side with the person who is morally disgusted, not the one trying to play nice.

The problem with the world is not that I point out the irrational evil movements that are being propagated, or that I show anger and disgust at these movements and their proponents, it’s that not enough people are mad about these issues.


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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They tell themselves, "Well it doesn't really affect me", without realizing that what they're being sold is the gradual loss of the freedom of the individual The frog and the boiling pot.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 2 months ago
    I think vinegar is not only appropriate, but is also necessary.
    I also like ridicule and humiliation.
    Honey is sticky and draws flies, while vinegar is cleansing, antiseptic, and repels a lot of insects.

    I also like the word NO and the statements such as 'I won't let you do that to me' and I strongly advocate for doing whatever is necessary to stop evil, putting fools in their place, and not tolerating the willfully ignorant.

    So hang in there db. You do have some admirers and support. Lying and smiling to be liked is a politician's game, not a producer's.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't expect it to happen either and I want to control no one. My point was, until they speak and operate with rigid, reasoned, moral principles we're screwed. (I really wanted to say "fucked" instead of "screwed", just sayin'.)
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would be nice if the politicians quit being half-hearted or apologetic, but I am not going to wait for that to happen. I will focus on what I can control. I don't want to control politicians, lest they try that much harder to control me.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Your line about someone who is being irrational not being able to sweet talked into rationality is priceless!
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks. When I deal with rational people, which almost all my clients were I could be calm rational and honey to an extent, but when I deal with irrational people I find that honey rarely works - maybe its because I am not good at it. However, I think someone who is being irrational cannot be sweet talked into being rational.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    On a personal level, I have found in my corporate career that the only way I could ensure that something was done (correctly I hope) was to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise I was given Toohey type platitudes and nothing changed - this was also often true of my father.
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    By speaking out to them, you are showing some level of concern and respect. You are being moral by doing so because you are absolutely correct in that there is real evil in the world, something that my generation does not like to admit. Most modern Americans have never seen true evil and destruction and they prefer to think that it does not exist. As we all know, we can avoid reality all day long, but we cannot avoid its consequences. What I was thinking of is more along the lines of something that I have been doing a lot of research on lately which is cults. I should probably shut up about it but I keep finding too many similarities on topics such as this to not bring it up. There is a phenomenon that I have witnessed and it is well known that when you approach someone who is thoroughly indoctrinated with any kind of illogical or contradictory belief and you are seen as threatening to their belief structure there is a persecution complex phenomenon. They shut down and actually your perceived 'persecution' reinforces their bubble of belief and that's when they start calling you names. This can be avoided by finding some kind of common ground where there is mutual respect and then using that to point out the contradictions in their belief structure. If you can get that far, the vinegar seems to be far more effective, if you can't then you've found your evil that no amount of vinegar can fix. At that point I would stop wasting my breath and not turn my back on that one. If as you say, this global warming alarmist cannot agree on any single fact, expect him or her to add you to the 'list'...
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I hear ya. I'm just saying that, often, those I see get emotional are wrong. This is not (deduction) to say that (in the second premise) that if one is emotional they are wrong. Sorry for not being clear (I was actually invalid, to be specific).

    There are a few topics I know a lot about. I say, "I'm an engineer so I know a great deal about very little!" I have raised my voice once or twice over that stuff. However...people rarely change their minds about anything. In the topics I'm thinking of they usually just admit, "Well, I still want to believe what I want to believe." (which isn't invalid)

    I recently gave a lecture on economizers, ventilation and related energy cost savings. A week later we had a consultant come into our office and rail about that very topic (and he was way wrong). My colleagues just looked at me for a reaction and I just sat and smiled. Still makes me chuckle to think about it.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 2 months ago
    db, your brilliant opening to this thread describes eloquently part of why I started the "Tolerance" thread a few days ago. When you are right, you are right. We all need to own our arguments, rather than being half-hearted or apologetic. Being half-hearted and apologetic is for the politicians, not for us.

    It is not our responsibility to convince others of our correct viewpoints. It is the responsibility of others to come to the same correct conclusions that we already have.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I disagree, because many of these people walk around in a bubble assuming everyone agrees with them. I think it is important to let them know that not only do I not agree, but I think their position is immoral.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is no logic to suggest that anger/yelling imply someone is wrong. And not being angry when one should be is not a virtue and may be a vice depending on the circumstance.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My dad gave me this quote as a kid of 16 and my immediate response was that you get more with bull shit.
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 10 years, 2 months ago
    It seems like if there is respect on both sides of any conversation or argument, the vinegar approach works. If there is no respect or reason to respect on either side then there is no point to wasting your breath.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks. Excellent "Evil unchallenged is evil sanctioned. Destroying evil is really a celebration of the value of life, made real by destroying by those who exist to deny others their life"
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    Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 2 months ago
    This is an excellent post db. Thanks for posting it.

    Evil unchallenged is evil sanctioned. Destroying evil is really a celebration of the value of life, made real by destroying by those who exist to deny others their life. *

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  • Posted by salta 10 years, 2 months ago
    "The Jews could not have talked Hitler out of the gas chambers and ovens."
    True, but I don't think it is productive to try to "change" Obama. The aim should be to encourage more voters to see through his political facade.

    BTW, a good retort to the "flies with vinegar" critic is
    from Seldon Cooper... "you can catch even more with manure, so what?"
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 2 months ago
    I have found that people who resort to anger/yelling are already way wrong - in general. I use strong, calm deduction to destroy people's arguments. If I can't do that, then I don't know what I'm talking about...
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