Forced Vaccinations to be Decided This Week

Posted by Abaco 3 years, 9 months ago to Legislation
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I thought this would happen. I'm just surprised it is happening this fast. The proposal was timed with the Brian Wilson (liar) reports of measles at Disneyland. Perhaps that's why. Anyway, SB277 is being debated this week at the State Capitol. This bill forces all children to be vaccinated per an extensive schedule that's in the bill (apart from the CDC schedule but based on it) and that can be modified at any time. It's already pretty extensive. It does away with religious exemptions. Even home-schooled children are subject. Any child that isn't vaccinated per the list on the bill will be classified at truant. CPS and law enforcement will be called in to take the child and vaccinate them. At that point, when do the parents see their child again? Anybody's guess.

Years ago I asked on another Objectivist forum if the members were in favor of forced vaccination. At least half were, to my surprise. The moderator of that forum chimed in with the obvious. But, I am curious what other Objectivists still think of this concept. I am pretty sure it will be enacted pretty soon. Best of luck to you and the young ones in your families.


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  • Posted by  $  RobertFl 3 years, 9 months ago
    The problem is, we've lost faith in the institutions we intrusted with our safety.
    Is that not what government agencies are for? to weed out fact from fiction.
    When we can no longer trust the government, the CDC,FDA, USDA, etc,etc, and the government resorts to force - that's a problem.
    I don't think that's a right/left/other argument.
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 3 years, 9 months ago
    When this proposal came to light a year or so ago, I recall there were some physicians who were questioning the effectiveness of some of the vaccines, and in some cases, the vaccines caused brain damage to some children. I think it's the parents obligation to make an informed decision. At the same time I understand that there are an increasingly large number of parents who shouldn't be allowed to have a goldfish let alone a child, but do we really want to live in a society that tries to legislate around bad parenting? Who decides what's appropriate? The fact is that they're already doing that very thing in the education system. Anyone with young children want to weigh in on how that's been working out?
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
      I like the idea of respecting the rights of parents at private school not to vaccinate. I prefer my kids go to a school that requires vaccination to enroll because vaccines only reduces the risk of contracting the disease. People benefit from the herd immunity of interacting with an immunized population.

      It's possible that one of those unvaccinated kids will infect my kids in a public place. That's a risk of living. Freedom isn't free. Part of liberty, IMHO, is the risk that someone else's choices might incur a cost on my family.
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      • Posted by SaltyDog 3 years, 9 months ago
        But if your child is inoculated, there's little to no chance of catching something from a non inoculated child, isn't that so?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
          My understanding is that depending on the vaccine in question, they are 50%-90% effective. If it's 75%, it cuts your risk to a quarter around an unvaccinated population but much more in a vaccinated population because of herd immunity.

          This is *not* excuse, IMHO, to force people to vaccinate. People who accept the current evidence on vaccines can simply send their kids to a school that requires vaccination.
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  • Posted by Ranter 3 years, 9 months ago
    Objectivists are faced with a dilemna. Scientifically, it has been proven that vaccinations save countless lives. Do I, as an Objectivists, want my children (who have been vaccinated, because I chose to do so) exposed to children who are not vaccinated (because their parents chose to ignore the science)?
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  • Posted by  $  blarman 3 years, 9 months ago
    If it is an individual's right to determine their own happiness and follow one's own conscience, how can one possibly condone abrogation of First Amendment rights to that effect?

    A few notes about the matter.
    1) The range of vaccinations is large. Are we talking MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) and Tetanus, or are we expanding this into HPV and Flu? What about chicken pox? What about HIV or Hepatitis B (STD)? Where does government interference STOP once it gets started? (Answer: it never does. That should be proof enough for ANY Objectivist.)
    2) What about the studies that show some of the mandated vaccinations are leading to higher rates of autism? What about other various health conditions that may be unknown at the time of the vaccination that are exacerbated by vaccination? There are other reasons to allow exemptions - not just for conscience reasons.
    3) A vaccination does not preclude one from getting that disease, it just preps the body to fight it off more effectively. Vaccinations are huge improvements, but not guarantees.
    4) I would be interested to see the rate of incidence of non-vaccinated individuals passing along disease to others. I'm betting this is a molehill issue - not a mountain one as is being portrayed in the media.

    I am against ANY kind of government-mandated medical treatment. I voluntarily vaccinated my kids for the basics and would encourage others to do the same, but I will absolutely respect others' decisions and fight for their right to disagree. Until the State can show that the parents are unfit by virtue of abuse or severe neglect (starvation, etc.), they have no say whatsoever in the matter.
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    • Posted by khalling 3 years, 9 months ago
      Never give the state additional powers over you. I think some vaccinations are crucial and others are not. I like to see diseases eradicated and we were mostly doing that. I never want polio to raise its ugly head due to disease coming across the border from lower world countries or because whole populations of people aren 't getting the basics in vaccination. Education is important and stopping the dis information.
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  • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 3 years, 9 months ago
    I will admit to being conflicted about this. I am a strong believer in vaccination as well as in individual rights. Failing to vaccinate is not only a personal risk but does, at least to a degree, increase the risk for those around you who either can't be vaccinated because of other problems or for whom vaccinations did not create a sufficient immune response. The effect extends beyond your own body.

    Setting aside the whole government school issue, I could imagine a private day-care center requiring vaccinations to have your children participate in their program.

    On the other hand, I was very troubled by the idea that home schooled children were included.

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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
      I agree. It's VERY troubling. If it's a case of the parents wanting to deny a child treatment, I can understand the state forcing it because the child doesn't understand the choice she's making. But vaccination is just a good health decision. People have the right to make bad health decisions, like not vaccinating, for their children.
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    • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
      Question related to vaccinations... how many adults do you know are up to date on all their vaccinations? You do know that most vaccinations they are finding out do not confer lifetime immunity (if they did immunity for a period of time in that person in the first place). A lot they already know don't, and more are being found out regularly.

      So... given that, how many people are "threatening" to everyone else because they're not up to date? And, given that we're not all dying because everyone's out of date, does that raise the question in your mind of the necessity of vaccinations?
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      • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 3 years, 9 months ago
        Vaccination is not a switch, it increases your immune system's ability to battle the underlying disease. It's a matter of degree. You don't automatically get a disease simply because your vaccination is less effective with age. You still have some immunity, just less.

        And with the majority of the population vaccinated, you are less likely to encounter the disease.

        They call it 'herd immunity'. As a significant portion of the population is immunized the odds of encountering the disease goes down so the need for individual immunity lowers. To a degree, those who don't immunize themselves are 'mooching' off of the rest of us.
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        • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
          And I could say that the "rest of you's" that send their kids to public petri dishes (er, I mean schools) are responsible for the prevalence and failure to eradicate the existence of the flu virus, the norovirus, chicken pox, etc.

          Our kids get sick, none of us go anywhere except me, who goes to work, only if I have no symptoms, and am able to avoid contact with others.

          If parents weren't idiots, and didn't have to send their kids to kiddie prison for 7 hours a day so they could go to work to make more money to earn their big fancy house, drive their fancy car, and have their 82" TV, rather than taking primary responsibility for raising their family, then this whole discussion may just be a moot point.

          If parents took responsibility for making sure their kids had sufficient nutrition, especially Omega 3 EPA/DHA and Vitamin D, then kids would be much less suceptible to viruses, etc.

          Does that mean that my answer is better and everyone should do it? No. But it goes to show, the fact that my kids rarely get any of that crap, despite never getting the flu vaccine, and still being around other kids frequently at gymnastics, and a few days a week at church events, just shows that maybe there's other ways of doing this, and maybe vaccines aren't the full story for why these diseases have become rare. Herd immunity is a good word people use on this topic, and, personally, I think it's a load of crap. Herd immunity can be gained in other ways, and very well may have by the time these vaccines came out, through nutrition, increases in health care, recognition and awareness of symptoms, etc.
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          • Posted by sumitch 3 years, 9 months ago
            Isn't working to have a more affluent life style a personal choice? One that I might make to give me a happier life?

            At the risk of being tagged with one of your all purpose catch phrases (public Petri dishes, kiddy prison) you make your decisions and I'll make mine. If your decisions commits your kids to kiddy home prison, that’s your decision. Make it and live with it. Quit your griping about something that is in the public good with, admittedly some bad results. Per Spock; "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few".

            If it wasn’t for vaccinations we’d still have the worry and sometimes pain of polio, German measles, etc. Just because you disagree doesn't make me an irresponsible parent. That's just your opinion and like belly buttons, everyone has one.

            Cars cause thousands of deaths every year. So should we protest against and ban them? Call them Urban Assault Vehicles? Tag anyone that drives irresponsible?
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            • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
              My post was just to point out that there's other ways. And also that there may be other explanations for what we see today.

              I personally think what our culture does today is asinine, but I don't go around like these liberals saying that everyone has to do it my way, even though I think it's best and see the benefits. Which brings me to the point about the whole vaccination thing, that these guys are doing, namely, "thou shalt or else".
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            • Posted by  $  winterwind 3 years, 9 months ago
              Of course working to have a particular lifestyle a personal choice! But ALL the consequences of it must also be accepted - including less time with your child/ren.
              By quoting Spock, are you saying his statement is correct?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
          "To a degree, those who don't immunize themselves are 'mooching' off of the rest of us."
          I agree completely with the science, but mooching is too harsh a word. They're exercising their freedom to make bad decisions in a way that may possibly incur a cost to others. That's the price of liberty IMHO.

          If we make the argument they should forgo their rights for our benefit, they can rightly see us as moochers.
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          • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 3 years, 9 months ago
            I admit there was a bit of shock value to the word. But there is also some truth to it. Someone who avoids vaccination is, to a degree, taking advantage of the herd immunity that the rest of us have paid for by being vaccinated.

            This is another variation on the classic problem of free market solutions to problems that government is often used for. Another example would be a private police. If 90% of the people in a neighborhood pay for a police presence to protect them, the other 10% are made safer without expense.

            Some deal with this issue by getting the government to force them to contribute. Obviously I don't like that answer.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 3 years, 9 months ago
              Yes. They're all non-excludable to those who don't pay.

              Since I don't want to use gov't to force them to contribute, I view it as a cost of freedom, which as the cliche goes, isn't free.
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 3 years, 9 months ago
    It should always be an individual's choice. This is hard because, especially as a parent, you would not want to see your child or any other child or human being die or become disfigured from polio or small pox etc. I personally believe that vaccinations were originally developed using sound scientific evidence. Still, I cannot morally defend forcing anyone to take a treatment they don't want. There are many new vaccines that are touted as miracle cures, however, they have not been time tested as the polio or small pox vaccine have been. Everyone should educate themselves thoroughly on what a vaccine is and how it is produced and delivered. If kids are forced to receive the vaccine, what would be the point in educating yourself about it as a parent? There would be little to no scrutiny and there are plenty of opportunities for abuse there. I thought about this a lot, but ultimately decided to vaccinate my daughter. At least I can say it was my choice, and when she is old enough to choose, it will be up to her. This is somewhat hard for me as I was raised in a cult and I saw firsthand what refusing some medical treatments did to people who were coerced into it as opposed to being able to freely choose without consequence. The emotional side tells me I don't like to see kids die unnecessarily, but the logical part tells me that use of force or coercion on either side is morally wrong.
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 3 years, 9 months ago
      Snoogoo, may I ask what was the cult? and how did you come to be exposed to Rand?
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      • Posted by Snoogoo 3 years, 9 months ago
        Jehovah's Witnesses.. many see them as harmless, but as someone who knows the inner workings, they are anything but. They are on the same level as Scientology and use the exact same control tactics. (see http://aawa.co/) I was referring to their refusing of blood transfusions to the point of death which has had some personal affect on me. My first exposure was in Anthem, which I casually read at about age 14 just because I liked science fiction. Then there was a mention from a friend about Atlas Shrugged which stuck with me later in life. When I finally decided to read it, everything started to make sense. Reading Rand has now become an affirmation of a truth known from birth one has fought for not knowing exactly how to identify it. Well at least that is how I see it.
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 3 years, 9 months ago
          That's great that you found a way out. I knew of a woman who died after childbirth because her husband would not allow a blood transfusion. He gave out pamphlets at the hospital where I worked that explained that they felt it was cannibalism.
          Anyway, so glad you followed the truth!
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          • Posted by Snoogoo 3 years, 9 months ago
            Yes, fortunately there are some great activists out there that are really shedding light on the Jdubs who deny situations like the one you describe above even happen. I volunteer for the group mentioned above in the link. According to their doctrine that makes me a "mentally diseased apostate". And they call their doctrine "The Truth" which makes your above comment awesome :)
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        • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
          Snoogoo:
          BRAVO!
          The last part of your comment is inspirational.
          Thank you.
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          • Posted by khalling 3 years, 9 months ago
            I agree. actually, for some time, maybe still, we had a Producer who was a scientologist. He and I had some interesting conversations(not about religion) and eventually he started PMing me-trying to cultivate. It did not go over well.
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            • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
              Khalling:
              I would have liked to have heard your conversation... so he lost the debate.
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              • Posted by Snoogoo 3 years, 9 months ago
                Yeah that would be interesting. A 'cult personality' is really hard to shake, in my case I was born in, indoctrinated from infancy so even after I left it took me almost 10 more years to really shake it off. Studying Objectivism helped a lot because after that experience you have to completely rebuild your moral compass. HBO has an incredible documentary called 'Going Clear' about Scientology that just came out I would suggest to all. I have no idea how a current cult member could reconcile Objectivism in their mind. The premises would be all wrong.
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                • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
                  Snoogoo:
                  You would seem to have an incredible courage.
                  I am glad that you found your way and was guided with the philosophy of Ayn Rand. What a beacon in the darkness.
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  • Posted by Kittyhawk 3 years, 9 months ago
    I'm not sure if everyone here is aware of the very strange and unique legal situation regarding vaccines, as a consumer product. For every other product, if the manufacturer or maker has been negligent or reckless and caused harm to consumers, those consumers are able to file a lawsuit in the courts and receive compensation if harm is proved.

    However, our government has granted immunity to vaccine manufacturers from being sued since 1985. Those harmed by vaccines must go through a government-run special "vaccine injury court." Government lawyers (i.e., taxpayer-funded lawyers) defend the vaccines. The court's fund is composed of "taxes" paid by each person who receives a vaccine. Only a fraction of the people with vaccine damage ever receive compensation, and it often takes many years. This is crony capitalism as its most extreme.

    For the government to first shield vaccine makers from normal liability, and then talk about mandating vaccines, can't be said to remotely resemble a free market. For those who acknowledged in the other post that Ann Marie Cox was wrong to use government to force people to behave a certain way, I hope they won't flip-flop on the issue of vaccines. Either Big Daddy government knows best... or else it doesn't.
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    • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
      Kitty hawk:
      Very interesting points.
      I had no idea of this "underbelly" of the government/vaccine manufacturers...

      Makes me think. If you mandate vaccines and there is a negative reaction, cripple, deform, compromised in any manner from ever being "normal", even death, then the government should have to compensate, period.
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    • Posted by Ducky 3 years, 9 months ago
      It is indeed a very strange and unique arrangement, that the manufacturers of these vaccines have such protection against liability. As I say, being a crony means never having to say you're sorry.

      Some on this forum seem to think "the science is settled" on this issue, but I wonder how deeply they've looked into it themselves--not just taken the word of their pediatrician--but really, honestly looked into it. There is a woman named Barbara Loe Fisher, whose work on the issue is very thorough, and whose videos on the subject are seriously worth watching. This is her organization:
      http://www.nvic.org/about/barbaraloefish...


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  • Posted by  $  jlc 3 years, 9 months ago
    Of course you should not force people to vaccinate. And of course any public institution or private institution has the right to insure vaccination as part of their entrance requirements. (The public institution because herd immunity protects the community; the private institution because it can set its own rules.) But home schooled kids should be exempt.

    Except.

    Let's ask the kids too. A baby cannot make any valid decisions about his future - all he can do is drool. But a 14 year old kid can give input in a divorce case as to which parent he wants to live with and a girl who is under 18 can get pregnancy counseling without her parents' knowledge.

    So I think that if EITHER the parent or the child want vaccination, then vaccination it is! If BOTH parent and child disdain vaccinations, then the only one who has a right to make them to do this is a group which has entrance requirements and which they freely decide they want to join.

    Jan
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    • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
      No, a public institution does NOT have the right to take money from people, and then deny them entrance if they refuse to take part in a medical procedure.

      They can suggest it, sure. But you cannot deny them. The ADA would have a field day with this one if it was related to disabled people.
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      • Posted by  $  jlc 3 years, 9 months ago
        Perhaps a solution that would be acceptable to both of us is if such a refused individual were given a voucher to use at a school of his choice. That way, the financial aspect of this would make more sense. How is it dealt with if a person is too severely mentally or physically handicapped to attend a public school?

        I am biased in favor of vaccinations, but I draw the line at forcing people to have them. Schools are a hotbed of diseases and if there is no threshold for acceptance into them you fail at keeping contagious diseases from propagating through society.

        Incidentally, this could also apply to 'work'. I do not know of any company outside of healthcare or biotech that requires vaccinations. Do you?

        Jan
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        • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
          My sister teaches those kids that are too handicapped, it's rough. Actually, she teaches the ones who are moderately handicapped, but also extremely troublesome kids and uncontrollable, often physically violent. Kids that really should be in another place besides a school with other kids.

          I don't know of any companies that require vaccinations. Except the military.
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          • Posted by  $  jlc 3 years, 9 months ago
            Hospitals do. Are teachers required to have vaccinations?

            I thought of this on the way home: I don't have any children (and it is unlikely that would ever do this). Would you think that it would be fair for me to receive a school voucher? One that could be used for any government service, say?

            Jan
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            • Posted by  $  winterwind 3 years, 9 months ago
              I always argued at the private school where I worked that I should get a "teacher discount" - the teachers who had kids enrolled in the school got a discount on tuition. I wanted one which I could then give to any child I wished.
              I argued that for 20 years and never won it. Everyone seemed to be pretending not to understand my point!
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            • Posted by barwick11 3 years, 9 months ago
              I think public schools are a farce to be honest, but that's just me.

              Honestly we're getting to the point where we can educate children better than public schools can in 1/4 the time with online schools. Take classes at your local library if you have to if you don't have a computer, etc...

              So, should you receive a school voucher? You shouldn't have to pay for schools to begin with. That's my take. Charities started schools long long ago to pay for the kids who couldn't afford it, and it worked remarkably well considering the limitations at the time.
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              • Posted by  $  jlc 3 years, 9 months ago
                OK. I generally assume that we need to continue with public schools as a price for living in a literate society. I am more than willing to 'not pay' for a service for which I am not a primary user.

                One of the other considerations re not paying for schools is the difficulty in tracking. In order for me to legitimately not pay, the gov has to know who has kids and what ages they are...but we are pretty much 'there' anyway...

                Jan
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            • Posted by sumitch 3 years, 9 months ago
              My understanding, subject to more knowledgeable input, is that hospitals are one of the easiest places to catch something contagious. It makes sense to me.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 3 years, 9 months ago
    If one has any clue as to what Objectivism is all about, one would recognize that "forced" anything is anathema to Rand's philosophy. If she were still around, there are certain parts of Objectivism I could argue with but the use of coercion is certainly not one of them.
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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 3 years, 9 months ago
    My kids are grown. When they were small, there was no question or hesitation about them receiving every disease protection available.
    My future ex being a LPN helped--even encouraged the same child health protection outlook my parents had.
    Every child deserves common sense protection from diseases.
    I cannot comprehend the religious mindset of a parent who would not protect their kids from any given horrendous disease with a vaccination.
    I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to handle a rattlesnake to prove it. Or put kids in jeopardy.
    Being ordered to dope kids up with stuff like Ritalin is another subject.
    Now I draw a line. Not an Obama line. A dino line.
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 3 years, 9 months ago
      "common sense protection from diseases". But, see, these parents count on every one else vaccinating their children, and truth is, if every one else did so, the unvaccinated child would not be at risk
      That's assuming that we didn't have unvaccinated illegals streaming across the borders.
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      • Posted by  $  allosaur 3 years, 9 months ago
        Yeah, we've always had that.
        Now it's a heck of a lot more.
        It would be ironic if the Dimocrap dream of one party rule touched off a pandemic far worse than the Bubonic Plague. .
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      • Posted by  $  Mimi 3 years, 9 months ago
        Ilegals have brought the need for a whooping cough vaccine in the carolinas for infants.
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        • Posted by sumitch 3 years, 9 months ago
          News is reporting that tuberculosis is showing increases in the United States and hinting that it’s due to the increases in illegal immigration. Only hinting because you'd be tagged a racist if you just came out and said it.
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      • Posted by slfisher 3 years, 9 months ago
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        • Posted by Ducky 3 years, 9 months ago
          They're playing a guessing game...instead, they should be looking at the DNA of the measles virus recently-found, and comparing it to the DNA normally found in measles in the USA. One of the best means of disease-prevention in a population is isolation and treatment of the afflicted. Since last summer, when govt officials began knowingly distributing actively diseased people throughout our country, our country has seen a rise in dangerous diseases we don't normally see--a polio-like enterovirus (enterovirus-68), tuberculosis, Shigella, leprosy, and measles. I've heard of immigrant kids being brought in by the busload to rural schools--some of these kids do not know how to use a bathroom (!!), and some have scabies and lice. This degree of irresponsible behavior on the part of officials--both towards the citizens and the immigrant-"pawns"--looks like nothing other than criminal intent to me. No one can convince me they have our best interest at heart. When you think of us cautionary parents as "irrational" for not accepting all the mandated vaccines that these same bureaucrats stand to gain big bucks by, know that we've taken all these facts of corruption into account--that's called "context"--and if you drop context, you can't be fully rational.
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  • Posted by slfisher 3 years, 9 months ago
    I just can't wrap my head around the notion that some parents don't want to vaccinate their children (except for the ones with allergies, etc.) It seems irrational.
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    • Posted by kevinw 3 years, 9 months ago
      There is a lot of misinformation going around about a lack of effectiveness, damages caused, not needed anymore, touted by people claiming to be doctors and scientists adding small amounts of credibility to the claims. Add to that the conspiratorialists having a heyday with the notion of the government pushing unnecessary and harmful injections upon our children and it could seem very rational to some people, and a difficult decision at the least for many others. Make it a law and start rounding up children from their homes and see what happens then.
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  • Posted by  $  Thoritsu 3 years, 9 months ago
    My kids are all vaccinated. My wife and I are up to date because of a trip to Africa last year. Why? Because it is healthy.

    I wear my seat belt too, because it is a good idea, but the seat belt law is stupid...except for minors.

    Not sure about this one. Not getting vaccinated is dumb, and just puts more burden on others. Not sure about a law.
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  • Posted by Matcha 3 years, 9 months ago
    I do believe in vaccinations but no one should force parents to do so. This debate is ridiculous. This is the government showing us it will do as it wants.
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  • Posted by autumleaves 3 years, 9 months ago
    I would never support forced vaccination. I had all my kids vaccinated and do believe in them. However, not forced. Were the kids at Disney land some of the illegal kids brought into the US? Probably at Disneyland for free too!
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    • Posted by hattrup 3 years, 9 months ago
      More like some rich US citizen kid who has extensive international travel -
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact...

      Consistently amazed by the knee jerk hostility toward "illegals" from outside the US here in the Gulch, while more accurately questioning many "illegal" activities done here (in the US) - assuming not being done by an already "illegal".
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      • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
        Hattrup:
        With the hundreds of illegals infiltrating our borders from countries that do not have adequate possibilities for sufficient health care on any level much less in schools and you want to point a finger at some possibility of a "traveling rich kid"?

        If your child was attending a school that had continuous arrivals during the year of "illegals" and there was an outbreak of something like measles or smallpox, you would concentrate on somebody's rich kid that travelled extensively? Really?

        I don't see it as, and I quote you: "a knee-jerk" hostility toward 'illegals'... here in the Gulch", instead I consider the inclusion or mention of "illegals" as a primary and legitimate concern since they arrive from countries that do not have access to general vaccinations and these early age diseases are left to run their course in the general population. I would call this an obvious concern and intelligent assessment of the situation and not a "knee-jerk" reaction.
        However, there are "exceptions" to any majority factor. On that I would agree.
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        • Posted by hattrup 3 years, 9 months ago
          Why would I put my child in a school with continuous arrivals of "illegals"? If I did not like
          the way the school operated my child would not be there. Poor premise.
          Regardless based on actual facts the US immunization is no better:

          From the link:
          "Here’s how the countries compare to the United States over the four most recent years of data, according to the World Health Organization:

          United States: 92 percent (2010); 92 (2011); 92 (2012); 91 (2013)

          Mexico: 95 (2010); 98 (2011); 99 (2012); 89 (2013)

          El Salvador: 92 (2010); 89 (2011); 93 (2012); 94 (2013)

          Guatemala: 93 (2010); 89 (2011); 93 (2012); 85 (2013)

          Honduras: 98 (2010); 95 (2011); 93 (2012); 89 (2013)

          As you can see, in most years, the other countries had better vaccination rates than the United States, though there was a sudden decline in 2013 in every country but El Salvador. Still, these are fairly high vaccination rates, making it much less likely that illegal immigrants from these countries are a source of the outbreak. "
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          • Posted by  $  JCLanier 3 years, 9 months ago
            Hattrup:
            My example was hypothetical and in line with the discussion.
            How am I to interpret your opening sentence, since you just stated, and I quote you, "Why would I put my child in a school with continuous arrivals of illegals?" Then do you have a problem with a school due to the fact it accepts illegals? So you would take your child out of a school that accepted illegals? Help me see my, as you state, "poor premise", so that I might understand your seeming contradictions.

            Your statistics, while they are not current, do not pertain to the recent outbreaks. While the U.S. has almost eradicated certain of the childhood diseases in question, other countries (including those in your statistics) have not, especially among the poor (large part of population).

            My issue with your previous comment, as I stated in my previous response, is that I do not agree that the mention of illegals by Gulch members is a "knee-jerk hostility towards illegals", as you state. Instead, I find most members comments on "illegals" pertinent to the issues at hand and confirmed by State and local communities around the U.S. (Even if the Federal Government tries to placate these statistics).

            It is OK that we disagree.




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  • Posted by 3 years, 8 months ago
    I was involved in some activities in trying to defeat this law. But, recent events made it clear to me that there are very powerful interests backing it. So...I'm hanging up my spurs. Saw some crazy stuff that really opened my eyes. Bad stuff...
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  • Posted by 3 years, 9 months ago
    OK, this went through second committee last week (Education). They expressed concern about the bill (real concerns) then, surprisingly, delayed for a behind-closed-doors vote for this week. They had something like 300+ citizens opposed vs. about 40 in favor at that hearing. Get this! Since deciding to delay the vote the Education Committee has been raided. Senior reps pulled a couple of the members who had concerns and replaced them with members who are in favor of the bill. ONE OF THOSE ALREADY VOTED FOR THE BILL THE PREVIOUS WEEK ON THE HEALTH COMMITTEE. Very interesting to see how the games are played. After this (it will surely pass) it goes to the Judicial Committee who I say will pass it. Why? As my pediatrician says, "Who cares if it's unconstitutional? That hasn't stopped a lot of laws recently."

    After that it goes to the Assembly, who will pass it. So, for the first time in our history we will have REAL forced medical treatment in America. (not "suggested" or "required") Once this gets passed here in California get ready. Because, it's rolling east from here...
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  • Posted by 3 years, 9 months ago
    A little bit of the inside scoop from out here on the left coast. FWIW...the lady who shouldn't have voted last week made a point to announce before she voted that she has been receiving death threats. Of course, this is a Reischtag Fire approach, because all she has to do it hand such info over to the CHP and it will be dealt with. Now, other proponents are making the same claim. Very strange stuff...

    http://themomstreetjournal.com/2015/04/1...
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  • Posted by lliillaa 3 years, 9 months ago
    I think they can force these kinds of things at public institutions but shouldn't for private (i.e. private or home schooled kids), but I agree with root1657 when he says people should have a choice. On the other hand, your choice ends where mine begins and I think communicable diseases make this line blurry.
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  • Posted by 3 years, 9 months ago
    I can see that a lot of people are using this thread to try to debate the pros/cons of vaccines. First off...this isn't the venue/medium to solve those issues. However, I have seen in many similar threads all around the internet people who rarely post, or have never posted, show up to promote vaccines. If I don't recognize the name of the poster I always think of this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bYAQ-ZZ...

    I have been involved in the study of vaccines and developmental disorders for about a decade now. I've been involved, firsthand, in studies by the biggest developmental disorder research group in the world and have learned a great deal about vaccines. Let me tell you that a vast majority of people have absolutely no clue what they are talking about regarding vaccines - not a clue in the world. Frankly, it scares me to see that. What good is informed consent when nobody's informed?

    So, start another thread to debate whether or not vaccines are completely safe and effective. This thread is about force, as applied by government, to subject citizens to medical treatment. If you think that deciding if your government should apply force depends on whether or not you agree with the premises...check your premises.

    Thanks,,,
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    • Posted by  $  WilliamShipley 3 years, 9 months ago
      I don't think the government should force people to be vaccinated. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that institutions, including private and public cannot establish standards for the safety of the people who attend. I have no problem with saying that if you want to go to a public school you have to have certain vaccinations.

      Your alternatives is to find a private school that doesn't require them, home school, or start your own private school which can advertise that vaccinations are not required -- if a lot of people agree with you, you'll have lots of students.
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      • Posted by 3 years, 9 months ago
        See what's happening in Australia now? See...if you're an Objectivist this jumps out at you. Vaccines are being attached to all kinds of government payola. Eventually, you may need to show your papers to get your social security, be able to travel, etc. The schools are just the start, I believe.
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