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A Gulch?

Posted by Lysander 6 years, 4 months ago to Government
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Looking for the most free state or country to move to. Which US state would be best? Which nation?


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    Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
    The only way to achieve this in my mind is this:

    1) Pick a state with sufficient liberty-leaning population.
    2) Move there with as many influential and wealthy people as you can. Bring as many liberty-minded people as you can with you.
    3) Get a 60-70% majority of libertarian-voting populace
    4) Champion an individual with some balls for Governor, elect him/her and a vast majority of libertarians to the state legislature.
    5) Declare null and void within the State's borders "all federal laws, orders, regulations, statutes, etc, that do not have direct or clearly implied authority stated in the US Constitution", and enforce criminal penalties on any person trying to enforce those laws within the state.
    6) Pass a State law that collects all Federal taxes on behalf of the IRS, determines what percentage of that income is going to pay for unconstitutional programs, send that % amount back to the taxpayer, and forward the rest directly to the IRS.
    7) When the Federal Government comes whining, stand your ground and absolutely do not back down.
    8) When other States see that they can reclaim the Federalist principles, sit back and watch as they copy what you just did.
    9) Live in a free nation once again with 50 little mini-laboratories of Government.
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    • Posted by $ Temlakos 6 years, 4 months ago
      Last I heard, a certain group--whose name escapes me---picked New Hampshire to try that on. Only I've seen New Hampshire go from freedom-loving to freedom-hostile. New Hampshire might as well rename itself Dartmouth, like the college whose student body now seem to pick all their State-wide officials.
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      • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
        yeah the free state project. But I don't think NH is exactly the best place to do something like this... Probably wyoming or something out west. Most people there literally just say "wtf do I need the federal government for besides the military?"
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    • Posted by jpellone 6 years, 4 months ago
      I used to think that libertarians were way out there but lately I am thinking that they are what we need right now!!!!
      We need a state that is self sufficient such as Texas that has its own economy and can feed its people!!!
      Texas is the leader in energy.
      Texas usually votes for better governors than most other states.
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    • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
      Isn't this what the Free State Project is all about? And they are actually doing it, or trying to, in New Hampshire. At least 1-4. Not sure 6 is constitutional.
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      • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
        "no direct tax" has never been repealed.

        The 16th amendment doesn't give them the authority to DIRECTLY tax... but the States haven't put up a fuss about it.

        And the Free State project in my mind is barking up the wrong tree. Go ask your average NH resident if they support doing something like this plan. Then go ask the average Wyoming, Idaho, South Dakota, North Dakota, etc... resident
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    • Posted by jdg 6 years, 4 months ago
      The trouble is that you'd be forced to fight another civil war. And the state militias are mostly kept almost as weak as the civilians, so there's no way the state could win unless a large part of the army defected to them. If the Oath Keepers ever get millions of members, it might be worth trying.
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      • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
        Do you honestly think any military commander would obey that order to fire on fellow Americans? Do you think any more than 10% of the military would obey that order? There is almost zero chance of this turning into a civil war.
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        • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
          Yes. The vast majority would give and obey those orders. Maybe ten percent would not.
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          • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
            I think your percentages are reversed.

            I mean seriously, think about it..

            That State is still paying taxes, still recognizing the Constitution, still sending its citizens to serve in the military, etc. And, if you've done your job right and picked a sufficiently proper leadership (governor, representatives, and well-known figures who speak publicly in favor of Federalism, they've already explained, all over the media, that this is exactly how the founding fathers designed this nation to work.
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            • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
              After having graduated from West Point and served in the Army I think these percentages are pretty good. It might be 80/20 or 75/25 but the percentage of soldiers that would just follow orders and fire on US citizens is pretty damn high. It is what they are trained to do. The 82nd Airborne went to Little Rock. Army armored units patrolled the streets of DC during a riot in the 60's. The "rebels" will be portrayed as radical extremist terrorists and the US military will largely act accordingly.
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              • Posted by barwick11 6 years, 4 months ago
                Yeah if that state comes off like a bunch of lunatic morons, that'll be easy. But the whole point is that long before it comes to that, they're out in public detailing why they're doing what they're doing.

                I don't think it would come to that, and if it did, an entire freaking state under attack... I just can't see it coming to that. They're not "rebelling", they're not attacking anyone, there's zero chance the public would stand up for it, and like I said, I think zero chance the majority of the military would attack that State under those circumstances.
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                • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
                  It doesn't have to be a state. You asked if I believe that American soldiers will follow orders to fire on American civilians. Unequivocally yes. I think anyone that believes that a significant majority of them will not is actually living with their heads in the sand and without regard to our own history. Whomever they are being asked to fire on will be spun as extremists or terrorists. And even that won't be necessary once those people begin firing back.

                  The one place in the US that is actually closest to a totalitarian lifestyle is the US military. It is socialist with housing allowances based in part on need and in part on rank. It is top down and authoritative with members own civil rights curbed. This does not lead to a core group of people who are going to mutiny.
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 4 months ago
                    Absolutely. Very much a totalitarian/socialist environment. That's why I often have to correct many who seem to think that the military will be a libertarian enclave.
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                    • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
                      This is why the Founders were against having a standing army.
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                      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 6 years, 4 months ago
                        In fairness, the Founders had months of forewarning to any invasion. Either spies overseas or ships at sea could rush to the US to report that an armada was coming. Today, and for the last 60 or so years, that lead time has been reduced to a fraction. With contemporary weapons we cannot stand as a nation without a solid degree of trained national defense.

                        As for would our soldiers attack a State or US citizens, some would without thought (orders), others would under pressure (peer-pressure), and those that didn't would be dealt with after the fact. I am a veteran. Lets just say that my ASVAB was 83 and I knew people, good folks, with 38...that says much, no?
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  • Posted by RonC 6 years, 4 months ago
    I have read through this thread and many others like it. There is a great dissatisfaction in the land. Something all of them have in common, there is never a call to action.

    We can be so thoughtful in our writings, so diligent in our references, and so accurate in our histories; and at the same time, really the same thought, we are void of action. As empty as the chair Clint Eastwood addressed. In that circumstance nothing will happen except the slow progressive incrementalism employed by government in the taking of freedoms. Until the opposition is organized into action, all of this is simply a conversation.

    There is a tale of warning in my message. Our benevolent government is so digitized and organized that any communication by electronic means is not secure. Any movement on public highways is observed. The 21st century revolutionaries will have to communicate by courier and travel be foot or horseback not to be observed or overheard in the planning and execution of a campaign. Essentially, we would have to learn from our foreign enemies how to negate the immense technological advantage the FBI, NSA, CIA, Military, IRS, NHS, and other agencies bring to bear. As many have feared, if they bring that to bear on our own all is lost.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 6 years, 4 months ago
      America, the country, is a big geeky dolt, snoozing in the sun. But if you get America really mad, then we become green and muscular and go "Smash!".

      This is how people see us from the outside. I believe it works that way from the inside too. We are a big lazy country, and we are sufficiently affluent that bad decisions do not bite us dearly. It is not impossible that there be a call to action; nor is it impossible that we will 'dodge the bullet' by drifting back towards a Libertarian model of government.

      There are encryptions that the alphabet soup agencies are not supposed to be able to break. There is also the fact that if you are simply going about business as usual your presence traveling the highways of the US is noted, but not notable. So, if you do not want to have to travel by horseback, instead: join the AKA and start showing your dog all over the US.

      Jan
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      • Posted by jdg 6 years, 4 months ago
        The only Americans willing to consider revolution anytime soon are the thugs in places like Ferguson. Waking them up would be bad for everyone, including them.
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  • Posted by NealS 6 years, 4 months ago
    Well it's definitely not here in Washington State.

    I really like New Zealand. Not that I like or agree with their way of government, but it sure seems to work well for them. The first time we were there, they had two government controlled TV stations. One day we read in their newspaper headlines, "US Bombs Woman and Children." referring to Libya. We were doing Bed an Breakfast stays and had to play completely dumb as to what we really thought about it. Women had no say, the men would answer to me every time my wife asked a question. They tried to ignore her.

    If you ever find the Gulch please let me know.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 6 years, 4 months ago
      Uh - I know some kiwis and they are so NOT like that. The one time I was in New Zealand, I had a poor impression of it, but I am given to understand that I am the only person on earth who has had that reaction.

      With socialized medicine, New Zealand should not be in the running.

      Jan
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    • Posted by khalling 6 years, 4 months ago
      "If you ever find the Gulch please let me know."

      what's wrong with this statement, Neal? :)
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      • Posted by NealS 6 years, 4 months ago
        Tell me...
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        • Posted by khalling 6 years, 4 months ago
          it implies a wish instead of doing. None of the people Galt recruited were looking for a Gulch. In a sense, you have a tremendous advantage over those Industrialists. In your quest to make a gulch , you will necessarily come into contact with people actively working to make one or many happen. Be one of those....
          or it's just a fictional plot device...
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          • Posted by NealS 6 years, 4 months ago
            I stand corrected, perhaps, perhaps I'm still learning, perhaps in my old age I just plain forgot. Thank you, you keep me on my toes.

            PS - Just received my signed copy of Pendulum of Justice.
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            • Posted by khalling 6 years, 4 months ago
              please enjoy the read. the sequel coming in the first half of the new year!
              ok. to the gulch. to illustrate: jbrenner and many other gulchers are actively trying to make a physical gulch possible. Please check into those threads. There are gulchers who need to stay focused on their industriousness in their fields. Support and promote them is my policy. Then there are the gulchers who focus on ideas. Getting the ideas into the mainstream. Then there are other guchers who have...galted. Db and I are two, but look to shruggininargentina's posts as well. There are many others who work on the practicalities of life in chaos and anarchy. Let us know (carefully) your area of expertise. Many of us catalog this kind of stuff. some of us are just public. others in the gulch are stealthy. I would say we are all here in some way. I see most of the gulchers as heroes. and I try to provide value to a site that is so unique in all of the noise out there. stay tuned and happy reading, Neal....
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  • Posted by robertmbeard 6 years, 4 months ago
    The annual Index of Economic Freedom may interest you: http://www.heritage.org/index/
    The US ranks 12th, using data through summer 2013. Australia and Canada rank higher in composite score but not in every category...

    As far as US states, there are 7 with no state income tax (TX, FL, WY, AK, SD, WA, NV) and 2 that only tax investment income (TN, NH).
    The annual Economic Freedom of North America, put out by the Fraser Institute, tries to rank US states, Canadian provinces, and now Mexican states, using data through the end of 2012 (see free download on bottom of webpage): https://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicat...
    Alberta, Canada always scores high, as well as most of the no income tax states listed above (especially Texas)...
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 4 months ago
      In both Canada and Australia you can't own guns so I find their high scores of "freedom" weird.
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      • Posted by robertmbeard 6 years, 4 months ago
        Keep in mind these rankings are only for economic freedoms -- property rights, business freedom, taxes, spending (responsible or not), trade, etc... This ranking doesn't extend to all political and personal freedoms (speech, assembly, religion, self-defense and gun ownership, etc...

        Also, you will note that it is a composite score that equally weights all categories, in order to avoid subjectively trying to pick which economic freedoms are more important. So, my general takeaway, is that Australia and Canada are modestly better on fiscal discipline, monetary policy, trade, business regulations, and govt corruption. They are comparable in taxes and worse on things like govt control of health care, restricting freedoms. I was unaware of the gun restrictions but am not really surprised.

        So, unlike colonial America, there is no current country with full respect for all freedoms, but there are a few that are further away from financial bankruptcy like we are in the USA...
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        • Posted by freedomforall 6 years, 4 months ago
          You said it, robert. There are no countries with the level of freedom that the States United posessed under the Articles of Confederation or the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights) assuming the 'law of the land' was observed, obeyed, and enforced.
          If we want it, we have to do it all over again.
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      • Posted by qjdb 6 years, 4 months ago
        Interesting. Weird how someone who "Can't own guns" owns 6.

        Yeah, there are different classifications of them, and there are mag restrictions, etc, but in the grand scheme of things it's actually easier to own a gun in Canada than it is in California.

        And we have a ton of groups that are working towards de-restricting some of the firearms, and our current Government (Conservative party), in 2013, repealed a 19-year law that made us register our "standard" rifles and shotguns. Oh yeah, and that same government refused to sign that UN Arms Treaty too.

        So, yeah, we have a bit to go, but have come a long way, and are in no way comparable to the firearms laws in UK and Oz. And our current leaders aren't scared of things that go bang.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 4 months ago
          You made an assumption that we still consider CA to be part of the United States (or New York either...or CT...). :) May you keep moving more and more towards freedom. (Do you have to register them though?)
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          • Posted by qjdb 6 years, 4 months ago
            Register the "Restricted" stuff (any handgun, shorter-barrelled stuff, "scary" stuff (AR-variants))

            Used to have to register the hunting rifles and shotguns stuff, but that was the law that got pulled out.

            So, yeah, we can't walk around with a pistol on our hip yet, but we're working towards it. The initiative that seems to be making the most headway is http://www.wildernessprotection.ca/
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 6 years, 4 months ago
              Well...good move, but they've already got the gun owners on a list at this point, there. :(
              It never made any sense to me that a shot gun is okay, but a hand gun isn't... do these twits not know the damage a shot gun does? And what threat is a gun on the hip of a non threatening person? It's the PERSON who's pointing it at an innocent person that's a problem...not the gun itself. The clowns are running the circus.
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      • Posted by jdg 6 years, 4 months ago
        Neither country ever banned all guns. Canada scrapped its registration system for handguns because it didn't work. Australia still bans most handguns, but rifles and shotguns are very common (there's enough wildlife that you need them in most of the country, even if you don't hunt).
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 4 months ago
      The problem I always have with real estate is that it can be taxed, and you may not have any or little say in how that taxation is structured. For example, I foresee a time (soon) where property will be taxed based on a means test - if you have wealth, you will be taxed at a different rate than if you didn't have that level of wealth, regardless of the property. It will be called "fair."
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  • Posted by johnpe1 6 years, 4 months ago
    I like Belize, but there is always Texas ... up near
    "armadillo" and the mini-grand-canyon.......

    but buy an island if you can -- or part of one, like
    Grand Cayman. . they have a way of staying out
    of the news.

    I bought a gulch in tennessee, literally, and put in
    a jeep trail across the gulch to fan out any potential
    gushing rainfall;;; we also have no state income tax
    (except for a moderate tax on dividends/interest).

    Good Luck with your search!!! -- j


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  • Posted by terrycan 6 years, 4 months ago
    I'm not ready to go Galt yet. Believe we should be more involved in local and state politics. If I do go Galt. I believe it is possible to create a Gulch hidden in plain sight.
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    • Posted by katrinam41 6 years, 4 months ago
      If this bunch of brains can't manage a Gulch in plain sight, then there is no hope for a Gulch. I do apologize for being gone from commenting so long. Health issues escalated and culminated in a massive heart attack on Christmas Eve. We've been thinking TX for a bit now, and this is the final good reason to go. My daughter is here from San Antonio to help get me back on my feet, and by this time next year, we should be Texans. If others have good suggestions, I'm happy to discuss and contribute ideas. I've missed participating these past few months!
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      • Posted by edweaver 6 years, 4 months ago
        Hope you are feeling well again soon.

        Having spent time as an elected county supervisor, the most difficult thing about having a gulch in plain site is compliance with state & federal mandates. We would need to find a way around them and then it would be possible.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 4 months ago
          No, the most difficult thing is to escape taxation. If you have an address, even if you are a 1099 or proprietor, you still can be identified and imprisoned for taxes. You would need to be able to hide in a fashion whereby you have no discernible address or bank account.
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          • Posted by edweaver 6 years, 4 months ago
            You right on the individual side. I was speaking from a community perspective. A community will find it hard to exist within any state due to those compliance issues.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 6 years, 4 months ago
    The only two states left in the US which will meet some of your criteria is Texas and Arizona. Az. does have some Democratic Strongholds in various sections of the state. This is mostly due to retiree's that move into this state from California and other liberal states. At least the Arizona legislature has implemented a number of laws to protect our Constitutional Rights. Although, I feel that they still can do more. As for Texas, it can declare itself a Republic because it has it in their Constitution.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 4 months ago
    There is no such place. It is a wishful fantasy.
    The best place is the USA which shows you how far we are from a free place in which to live.
    But if you're really serious, this doesn't mean it is not possible, just don't get sidetracked into rushing to situations that are bound to fail. As to the best state, probably Texas. Lots of Libertarian types there, lots of empty space to use as an enclave. But, you'll need many years, and hoping the idea will spread by your example. No Gulch tomorrow, but a possible future if you're tenacious enough.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 6 years, 4 months ago
    There simply is no definitive answer to this question due first of all to your failure to define "free". Once you complete that definition however you will no doubt find that there is no single location which will satisfy all your criteria.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 4 months ago
      Low to no taxes
      Voluntary support for needed enforcements
      Insurance-based property protection
      Regulations only to prevent property infringements
      An 100% adherence to the U.S. Constitution
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  • Posted by jabuttrick 6 years, 4 months ago
    I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned the Free State Project. Without going into its history and methodology in detail, that group selected New Hampshire and actively seeks like minded folks to join them. Anyone interested should google it.
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    • Posted by $ Flootus5 6 years, 4 months ago
      I remember when they were picking a State. They had it narrowed down to either New Hampshire or Wyoming. At the time, I lived in Wyoming and was hoping they would go with that State. I also did a Bachelor of Science at the University of New Hampshire in the 70's and knew that the change of New Hampshire - once a very freedom oriented State was happening - primarily because of those coming from south of their border - the Massholes.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 6 years, 4 months ago
        They chose NH as a state that they could change the politics and make some difference. I wish them well.
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        • Posted by xthinker88 6 years, 4 months ago
          I had not heard about it until pointed out by all of you. I've always loved the motto of NH but doubted that they continued to live up to it. Maybe I'm wrong.

          Started to read about it. Anybody planning to attend the Porcupine Festival this year????
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 6 years, 4 months ago
    My home state of Alabama ain't bad (trying to sound Southern here). I can open carry here, though I prefer concealed.
    We do have a state tax and a core of Southern Baptists who successfully resist state-run lotteries and keep casinos confined to Indian reservations.
    Not to mention a scattering of dry counties. A job kept me stuck in one of those for seven freaking years!
    Bama ain't bad but it could be freer.
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  • Posted by edweaver 6 years, 4 months ago
    There as been some lengthy discussions on this topic. I can't name the places but if you search back to maybe September 2014 you will find a couple long threads. Hope this helps.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 6 years, 4 months ago
    I have a few friends here in California who are packing up for Texas.

    I have been studying Chile for a while and have a coworker who grew up in Ecuador and claims I must see it, also. It's become clear to me that I may immigrate eventually.
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