Death of a Libertarian

Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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I thought this was a really good article, and it effectively sums up the biggest issue I have with Ayn Rand's philosophy.

READ ARTICLE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...


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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But what if they don't? What do you do when they refuse to do business with religious people? Fine them? And what if they don't pay they fine? Throw them in jail? And they don't want to go to jail so they resist. So you shoot them. Because he didn't want to do business with religious people. People don't want to get shot, so they follow the law.
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  • Posted by JaredCicon 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry Maphesdus, but Ayn Rand had it right. Problem is, 'today' and currently we are no longer living in a 'free' society.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "History has demonstrated that in order to ensure everyone is treated equally and fairly, it is necessary to create legally protected statuses for certain characteristics."
    I don't think I'm on the list, but I don't feel like I'm being treating equally or fairly. Yet I don't want to be on a whiny list and I don't want to frequent a business that doesn't align itself with my beliefs either. And I certainly do NOT want to FORCE anyone to comply with having to make me feel welcome. Everyone should run their business whatever way they want to..it's THEIRS. I can go there or can go somewhere else...they owe me nothing.

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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm not sure I agree that 'getting along with others' in any millieu much less a complex urban one is a necessary component of either Libertarianism or Objectivism. I absolutely agree that government has no role other than to protect life and property, even in an Objectivist Philosophy. There can be no room within either form of thinking or living for outside force to MAKE one do anything.
    The rationology of Objectivism or the expansive natural rights of a Libertarian may well provide the answers and guidelines for the individual and that's where it ought to remain.

    KYFHO
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A legally protected status is any characteristic which businesses and public schools are explicitly forbidden to discriminate against. You'd think that simply saying everyone has equal rights would inherently prohibit discrimination, but apparently that isn't the case. History has demonstrated that in order to ensure everyone is treated equally and fairly, it is necessary to create legally protected statuses for certain characteristics.

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964 defined the first five legally protected statuses, which are race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, and gender.

    The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 created certain protections for the disabled.

    In recent years, many cities have also added sexual orientation and gender identity to the list of protected statuses, and the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 2013 (ENDA), which would enact nationwide employment protection for the LGBT community, recently passed in the Senate with a vote of 64 to 32, and is currently awaiting a vote in the House.

    And obviously it wouldn't be respectful to wear a shirt like what you described anywhere, let alone in public, but I can't think of any way to allow business owners to prohibit such attire within their premises without also allowing bigoted business owners to prohibit supportive attire with the opposite message. So I figure it's better to just allow customers to wear whatever they want, though businesses may impose the condition that a customer's attire not be revealing (refusing to serve customers who aren't wearing shirts and/or shoes is perfectly acceptable).
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Refusing to hire people of a certain race violates the rights of members of that race. Therefore, it should never be legal. The other things you mentioned may have a legitimate argument going for them, but discrimination does not. There is no justifiable argument for legalizing discrimination. None.

    Also, eliminating non-discrimination laws would not eliminate debates about which groups should and should not be included in things, and I honestly don't see why you would think it would.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Aren't PEOPLE legally protected? What's with the 'status' stuff? So you're saying his appearance wouldn't cause angst or discomfort amongst your clients, or your employees? Some might not leave to avoid being in the same breathing space with the likes of him? His presence wouldn't have a negative affect on your income/sales/return customers? I didn't ask if you'd kick him out..I asked if he would be WELCOME. And is it 'respectful' to wear a shirt with that slogan on it out in public?
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I get that it is supposed to make you go out of your comfort zone of affluent friends. It's a good practice to expand your contacts. I don't know if AA has a role in that in the modern world, esp on the basis of dark skin when the POTUS has darkish skin. He is outside my circle of contacts b/c I'm not nearly that powerful yet!

    I wish they could trash all non-discrimination laws. Then we could stop debating which groups merit inclusion.

    **I really wish the gov't not taking action was not seen as tantamount to gov't endorsing it.** Drugs, gambling, selling sex, saying you don't hire certain races could all be decriminalized with no one construing that to mean those things are okay. Even as it is now, many stupid things you can do in life are legal. I'd like to expand the right to do all kinds of stupid things.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    First off, it should be noted that "skinhead" is not a legally protected status. Even so, as long as he was otherwise respectful and didn't harass or cause problems for any of the other customers or employees, I personally wouldn't kick him out.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How would you react to a skin head walking in, as polite as can be, wearing a shirt that says "I hate gays!" It's just a shirt.... the person under it is smiling and touching your merchandise. He asks a couple of questions maybe....puts finger prints all over your newly shined counter top....walks around aimlessly humming a happy tune. Two hours later... Is his behavior and identity welcome in your business?
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    right out of alice in wonderland maph-
    let ME tell YOU about MY rights that have been violated
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sure, you have the right to dislike whoever you want, for whatever reason you want. However, you do not have the right to persecute or discriminate against people you don't like if your reason for disliking them is because of a protected status like race or gender.

    As for me, the only type of people I can't stand are jerks and assholes. Luckily, disruptive and abusive behavior are not legally protected statuses, so if I owned a business, I could kick out anyone who was causing mayhem or being otherwise disruptive. ;)

    The important point to remember here is the distinction between a person's BEHAVIOR and a person's IDENTITY. While a business owner is fully entitled to refuse service to anyone because of the former, they cannot refuse service to someone because of the latter.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In regards to hiring employees, non-discrimination laws do not require business owners to give any special treatment or advantage to minorities or women. They simply require the business owners to give equal and fair consideration to them, and not immediately dismiss the applicant on the basis of a certain protected status.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I also have a right to dislike whoever I want. Stop trying to take that a way. Do you want to be forced to interact with and have dealings with people you can't stand, Maph? Do you? Because that's what your asking for.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are certainly some laws with good intentions which have had very bad results. However, I do not believe anti-discrimination laws fit that description.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The purpose of government is to protect people's rights. People have a right to not be discriminated against. Therefore, it is perfectly justifiable for government to enact laws to protect that right.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Non-discrimination laws in regard to hiring employees is a different topic than non-discrimination laws in regard to serving customers.

    While a bigot could potentially find a probable reason for not hiring a particular person because of prejudice, finding a probable cause for not serving a customer is next to impossible.

    Also, your argument about how having to do more paperwork if you chose not to hire a minority or a woman doesn't seem to make sense. How does doing more paperwork if you DON'T hire someone make you LESS likely to hire that person? It seems more logical that you would want to hire them to avoid the paperwork.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Public sphere: The area of social life in which people and businesses interact with the general public.
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