Atlantis must be free 2

Posted by upston 5 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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Atlantis must be free part 2

Thanks to all who read or commented on part one. This forum separates itself from the majority in it’s thoughtful and polite responders. As I said in a response to J this concept of a Libertarian city state is real to me and not just some mind game or escapist diversion. Further the goal is not to hide from big brother or the looters in some jungle cultist enclave hoping to go unnoticed, I could do that by myself.

The goal is for a fully functional community, not to get away from it all but to take it all with us. To do that we need that most popular word in real estate form the 80s SYNERGY. A couple of hundred like minded colonists scratching out some kind of survivalist existence on a barren beach is romantic but after the first week or two just boring as hell.

To attract colonists all the basics of modern life are fundamental to success. First and foremost is security and safety, what young couple would put their children in danger by moving them to some waco cult in a distant land, a few perhaps but not the profile we need for a new beginning. We need schools and police and banks and retailers and utilities and doctors and home builders and farmers bla bla bla, the list of essential services is almost endless.

Another sticking point seems to be the “permission” factor. The concern is if given it can be take just as easily. In a thug society this is true, old Russian saying. Best form of government GOOD ZAR, worst form of government BAD ZAR. The whole point of this community is to prevent the looters from taking your stuff at the point of a gun . Permission voluntarily given by two parties or a CONTRACT is the root of all human progress.

Marriage was one of the first forms of contract, tribe A and tribe B would send an emissary to broker the girl and boy, perhaps a cow or two, in holy matrimony. Thus mixing the gene pool and promoting an alliance between the tribes, you can still behead and eat your cousin but it’s less likely. This is permission.

The world has long since divided up every inch of land and ocean so arriving on the beach and planting a flag claiming a hunk is no longer an option. Displacing a resident population by force would make us the very thugs we are complaining about. We need the permission of the current owner just as Midas Mulligan got permission via a land contract to buy the valley. Galt got permission from Mulligan in consideration for assets he provided IE the camo beam and the power generator. But he got PERMISSION from the legal owner as we must.

Perhaps a better objection is how do we enforce this contract, what remedies can protect us if the grantor wants to renege. Lets look at some history of similar agreements. Hong Kong is a small island in the South China Sea, the British needed some room to grow so leased Kowloon for 100 years from the Chinese. The colony grew into a powerhouse economy with five million citizens and one of the highest standards of living in the world. Till the commies showed up.
Like Hong Kong hundreds of duty free zones or trade zone or economic development zones have been created , usually waving all manner of taxes and regulations.. In 2003 93 countries has some kind of free trade zones with 93,000,000 workers benefiting. This is well established law and not likely to be challenged if executed properly.

Most of these trade zones are in developing countries where the promise of establishing opportunities for employment and to attract much needed capital investment is a pressing issue and that is the path of least resistance or maximum influence. Large first world governments will never give consent to a breakaway counter culture, counter to high taxes and tyrannical control. As the saying goes one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

The competition I referred to would be among a hand picked group of well tenured sovereign democratic respected albeit small and some even unheard of nations. We would be granted our own free everything zone for a substantial one time cash prize for a suitable remote uninhabited location within the existing nation, hiding in plain sight. The permission or agreement would be voted on by the legislature and indorsed by the head of state. The first of the contestants to comply with our conditions would win the prize. Then the real fun begins.

How to finance this enterprise , set the terms and select the best five or six locations will be in part three but it’s as easy as falling of a log.


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  • Posted by Genez 5 years, 3 months ago
    While I think the idea is great, I wonder about a few things.. I'm sure these can be overcome but just throwing them in as something to add to the discussion.

    1. Infrastructure - if Atlantis is of any size there would need to be roads, bridges, etc.. Who pays for and builds them. Does everyone just pay for their own little portion?
    2. Governance - if a location is determined and 'x' acres, square miles, etc are acquired, what happens then. Who controls what land is bought, sold, etc and how are records maintained. I can envision a person providing a 'records service' that maintain and track all such information and transactions, but again, would need to be set up at the start.
    3. Legal measures - while, in general, people of the mind are inherently rational and able to reason out their differences, differences while arise. Is there to be a court system initiated? A 'council' of founders? (and if so, how is it maintained as they die?).
    Obviously, as a sovereign state, Atlanteans would not want to submit themselves to some outside legal system, that would defeat the purpose entirely..

    Again, I love the concept. Trying to break my ties to credit debt / servitude that I've allowed myself to be sucked into over the years so that I can rebuild wealth and participate. Just want to make sure that if it is to happen, all eventualities are considered.
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    • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
      Infrastructure? Midas took over the existing road network and hired someone to keep it up. He also hired someone to create power and water networks and granted permission, in the form of rights-of-way, for the same. Infrastructure is a service, and it doesn't need government to provide it.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 5 years, 3 months ago
        Why when the discussion of the Gulch comes up I mention infrastructure... You don't need a dotgov to handle it; there are numerous examples of how a privatized infrastructure actually works (and has for decades). Whether it's handled in shares (like some water and power systems) where the consumer is the owner, their "bill" is the actual operating costs plus a return for each of them, or owned by a company and billed for use (such as the Autostrade in Italy...)
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        • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
          In fact I've thought of three different models for upkeep of streets and roads, to give just one example.

          One could parcel out residential streets or take shared responsibility for them as a "common element." The residents could then take responsibility for having snow cleared from them. And I imagine that a Homeowners' Association could do a better job with that than the town.

          Merchants could take responsiblity for major thoroughfares. Why not? How else are they going to bring in customers and suppliers?

          Private operators could run highways and charge tolls. This goes back to when the word "turnpike" actually meant a private toll road. Or else, maybe a federation of long-haul shippers and "tourist attraction" keepers could keep up the highways, for the same reason a local merchant would pay his share to keep up a thoroughfare in town.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
            It will probably be the latter, for the most part (if not completely).
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            • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
              Perhaps. But what you don't do, is try to get motor-fuel retailers to contribute a portion of their sales proceeds. That never works. If you make that a required premium for siting your fill-up station on the highway, you know what savvy roadsters will do: drive deep into town to fill up well away from the highway, and certainly fill up before they even get on the road. (Or they'll do what I do sometimes: drive the back roads instead.) On the other hand, what does a fill-up station owner, at a remove from the highway, have to do with keeping up that highway? The present system makes all motor-fuel purchases, wherever they are, to go to keeping up highways many motorists will never use.

              The only alternative, I suppose, is to write this kind of contract with those who own and operate "truck stops." So, fine. You get the long-haul truckers and tour bus drivers to pay that fee. The little four-wheelers pulling trailers then "skate."

              Better to make that the responsibility of high-volume shippers, and those who operate restaurants, hotels/motels, theme and other parks, campgrounds, etc. that are closer than a specified distance. Even then, how do you make it worth their while?

              Maybe I'm just "spit-balling," as Jack Nicholson said. We have a problem. But the government creates a worse problem.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
      These are all important items that several of us Atlanteans have considered. Your concerns are entirely correct.
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      • Posted by Genez 5 years, 3 months ago
        I assumed there had been discussions I'd missed. I agree that government is not essential in providing these. Just looking at what the feasible alternatives might be. An HOA type organization in a neighborhood makes sense. Maybe a Merchants Association in a town center? All pay a portion to help maintain & clear roads and so on. I'd already assumed that items like power, communication, etc would be handled by providers who would provide their service for a fee, of course. Mail would be UPS, FEDEX or a facsimile of those... So all very feasible, but does take some planning.

        Personally I'm trying to determine what I could do in terms of tradable skill.. I am a regional planner at a mid size trucking company and while I'm good at what I do, planning and scheduling are important in a large scale operation but not as critical or needed in a smaller scale one. While some of my expertise in that area might be sellable, not sure it would feed me all the time. I like to garden so trying to learn more about various things to grow, crop production, cycles, etc..

        Climate is the other consideration I've seen discussed and would agree that it is VERY important in terms of being self sufficient. The more tropical the climate the easier it would be to grow much of the food you need...
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
          I'm not a big fan of a homeowner's association. I would guess that roads would be private toll roads with the equivalent of a SunPass that you can refill when needed.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
          We have looked at the Caribbean, several Pacific islands, several Central American countries (and their islands), and at Chile.
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          • Posted by Genez 5 years, 3 months ago
            Agreed, HOAs in general I don't like. But this would not be like those here that 'control' what color you can paint and what you can do with your property..

            All locations sound pretty good, except maybe Chile. A lot of Chile is further south, so depending on the islands location could be rough winters..
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 5 years, 3 months ago
      Just one example. When I lived in Monterrey, Mexico, we used to travel to the US on shopping trips. Now there was the state Mexican highway - on which you could get robbed, raped, and murdered - and there was a private toll road. The private toll road was well maintained, patrolled with armed security, and had a clean and well staffed rest area at the mid-way point. The toll charge was relatively modest (if I remember correctly about $5 each way) and well worth the security.

      Just one example of how a private business could provide "infrastructure."
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
    Your reasoning is why we have considered islands in the Caribbean, a few Central American countries, Chile, and a few Pacific islands.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 3 months ago
    This is a great and very idea-dense post. I echo your thougths on this: Get a open zone ("zona franca") where taxes and regulations are reduced in favor of brining capital and jobs. Looters may take it, but people will be reluctant to tamper with something that is working. It's not a perfect solution, but it's a great start.

    I have set before it should be marketed as a "startup incubator" and a place for services needed by the high-tech startup ecosystem. This doesn't mean you'd reject low-tech at all.

    I wholeheartedly agree it must be in plain sight because trade is essential. A Gulch could produce its own copper wire, apples, etc, but it's much more efficient for people to produce the things they're really good at and trade for the rest.

    If I make my own practice/business work and build significant wealth, I will support an effort like this by investing in it and serving on its board. By that point, I will know more about making business work. Hopefully some people who are already there can invest their money, time, and expertise in this.

    I agree the concept is easy, but the devil will be in the details of international business law that will come up when the thing starts operating. These details are NOT a reason not to try but rather part of the unglamorous work of getting the Gulch going.

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    • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
      So since you are willing to put money into something like this does that mean you are going to drop your support for people like Obama, the Clinton's and all others that support the progressive movement? It would be useless to spend money creating Atlantis to have people support and vote for people who will destroy it just like what has happened in America today. America was at one time Atlantis to the people that founded it.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 3 months ago
        Atlantis is supposed to attract people who think like the average Gulcher (define that dude, dino--oh, I dunno), but it is a pipe-dream based on a fiction novel, albeit an exceptional work as Ayn Rand's writings are.
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        • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
          I am not sure how this applies for my comment?? Explain please.
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 3 months ago
            I wouldn't support anything progressive but would be attracted to an Atlantis. Guess that would boil down to the average Gulcher.
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            • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
              Makes sense. I would not think anyone supporting progressives would be welcome in Atlantis. My question was directed at CG because he does support the progressives and I wanted to see if he was coming around. No reply tells me he is not coming around so if he were going to Atlantis, I would not. :)
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
                CG was actually quite interested in moving to Atlantis if it were near Daytona Beach.
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                • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
                  Maybe we could have an experiment with Atlantis. A progressive Atlantis in the Daytona Beach area and a another for those that cherish personal liberty & responsibility and we can see which on lasts longer. :)
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 5 years, 3 months ago
                    He's already living in the most progressive "Atlantis" there is - Madison, WI!
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                    • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
                      Good point and very correct. It is spreading rapidly to my area. Urg!
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 5 years, 3 months ago
                        Unfortunately, since it is a seat of government, they face no repercussions to their actions - the bureaucracy taxes statewide and spends locally, so the local economy never suffers. And being a major state university, they charge whatever they want for tuition, pay the staff exorbitant salaries, and tell students/parents to borrow to fund the largess.
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                  • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 2 months ago
                    "A progressive Atlantis in the Daytona Beach area and a another for those that cherish personal liberty"
                    The whole idea of building something that lives up to our American ideals of liberty is a progressive idea. It would be progressive by its nature.
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                    • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 2 months ago
                      They were talking progressive in the liberal sense, as opposed to taking a true step forward. Progressive in the liberal sense is actually regressive.
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                      • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 2 months ago
                        Exactly! Progressive in government leads away from liberty into what we have now which is on the tipping point of a dictatorship.
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                        • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 2 months ago
                          "Progressive in government leads away from liberty into what we have now which is on the tipping point of a dictatorship."
                          "Progressive" and "Conservative" in gov't threaten liberty. Unfortunately, liberty is not the natural state for human institutions, Liberty is like any ordered system, constantly requiring energy input to undo entropy.
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                • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 2 months ago
                  "CG was actually quite interested in moving to Atlantis if it were near Daytona Beach."
                  I would go there for vacation, conferences, and investing.
                  As I said in another post, I think it's not a pipe dream. Done right, it could be a model that would force nations to question the idea of gov't being intrusive and a big chunk of GDP.
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              • Posted by $ allosaur 5 years, 3 months ago
                Yeah, I did not quite get where you were coming from when I originally weighed in.
                When you asked me to explain, I was tempted to just smart off with "Well, someone gave that comment a point."
                I can clearly see the profit of resisting such stupid temptations.
                An understanding between us would not have been gained if I had taken that tack.
                Not resisting being stupid would have rendered me stupid.
                See? Even dinos can evolve.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 2 months ago
        "So since you are willing to put money into something like this does that mean you are going to drop your support for people like Obama"

        I'm not giving up on liberty in the US ever, so I would keep working with people such as President Obama who I think can help. I would like to see liberty issues become a question for debates. I would like the candidates to have answer "do we want to maintain the drug war, yes/no? Do we want to maintain an expensive standing army? Do we want to keep paying for people's retirement, medical care, disability insurance, etc? Do we want to keep sending a huge chunk of our earnings to the govt?" I would be happy just to see the questions asked, even if the answers were not my desired answers in favor of less intrusive/expensive gov't.

        I want the Gulch / incubator / zona franca to be model raising these questions. "Consider the island community of Open Cay, which is technically part of the Bahamas but has almost no taxes. If it were a country, it would have the highest per capita GDP of any nation except for Qatar. Could Open Cay's policies help the US?" I want politicians to have to answer that!
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 5 years, 2 months ago
          I'm sorry, CG, but now I'm really perplexed... when you wrote:

          I'm not giving up on liberty in the US ever, so I would keep working with people such as President Obama who I think can help.

          That makes no sense whatsoever. Here we have a president who has done more (and is doing more) to erode our rights, freedoms, and has publicly stated he will do whatever it takes on these issues, and yet somehow you say he will help support liberty? That is 180 degrees, not just from reality, but from both his actions (with pen and cellphone to proclaim by fiat) and his own statements.

          I remember when I was younger and easily swayed, I would ignore the facts before my face and support them, much as you say you are doing, but since I have gotten older, I can discern fact from fabrication. I'm NOT saying there aren't Dems who love our country and liberty as much as we do, but (and yes, I remember well the "W" era) with the candidates they keep putting up for office, well, they're doing more to destroy the fabric of our country than build it. And I'm not talking about the diversity issue - but maybe they ought to think about putting someone up for election that would support our constitution and our American values (going back to my immigrant forefathers) rather than people who publicly vow to tear it asunder.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 2 months ago
            "Here we have a president who has done more (and is doing more) to erode our rights, freedoms, and has publicly stated he will do whatever it takes on these issues, and yet somehow you say he will help support liberty? "
            They won't do it. We have to make them. I am concerned that the office of the presidency gets more powerful and the gov't gets more intrusive. My staying home or supporting some other candidate who would do the same thing is not the answer.
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  • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
    Again lots of great comments, a sticking point seems to be utilities and general infrastructure. As a developer I come as this from a different perspective. It is easy to think the various city and county governments build and maintain a high percentage or the roads and sewers and other “ public” improvements. Not so.

    When a developer gets permits to build a subdivision,, permission, the scope of the work includes all the roads , flood controls and water reticulation parks, fire prevention ect within the development and then in addition a substantial fee paid to the city or county for expansion or upgrades to treatment plants , water wells , trash services and all the rest. Impact fee they are called, ransom is another way to look at them. I have paid fees for a city hortulacuist and a greenhouse to grow annuals to be planted in road medians. $600k for that one.

    The city usually totally misuses these funds or spends many times more than a private sector builder would for the exact same thing, don’t even get me going on the DOT local state and fed, a black hole of waste and stupidity. Houston TX has a law that allows Municipal Utility Districts to be formed by the developer to provide all these systems and then charge the homeowners and business a small monthly fee to repay the costs and pay for continued maintenance and expenses. These feel are incredibly low as compared to a normal city. Trash pick up is just a few dollars a month compared to LA where I live now where it’s over $50 a month.

    As Ronald Reagan told us over and over again Government can’t solve the problem, government is the problem. Please believe me the infrastructure costs are the easy part if the legal issues are resolved.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 5 years, 3 months ago
      A lot of times the city government will do not what is best for it's constituents, but what generated the biggest kickbacks.

      One city I lived in had an opportunity to build a solar plant on some indeveloped property that happened to be rated as one of the 10 most potentially productive hillsides in the nation for power - they could have formed a local utility, and the residents would have gotten cheap (and for the envirowhackos, green) power for the residents... not to mention it would have just looked *pretty*, like a glittering obsidian amphitheater, and would have brought the city fame for decades to come, and potentially spurred business development... OR... They could sell to a real estate developer, put ramshackle and substandard housing and McMansions on the property, and get not just all the permit and tax revenue from property sales, but the kickbacks as well *right now*... while the current city council was still in office.

      Do you have to guess which way they went...
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 5 years, 3 months ago
    This Atlantis Project will be a multimillion dollar effort. The biggest problem is finding someone or what ever to loan/donate the funds. We will have to approach building the immediate infrastructure like the Army did on the Pacific islands during WW2. As I had written before the best way is via ocean going freighter. I have have been doing consider research on rebuilding it into a multi-mission vessel and still look like a Tramp Steamer. I would have the work done in a Portuguese Shipyard which would look like a normal retrofit of an older vessel. The exact details I will furnish later. I still think if a large island can be bought in a reasonable climatic area would work. To do something in the United States would not be a workable solution. They're are some great idea's in Zoltan Istvan's book - Transhumanist Wager. We would have to be mindful of satellite spying particularly of the US gov'ts paranoia. All the work going on would have to be innocuous as possible. Any of the roads would have to be made of non heat radiating material. Once laid down would have to be camouflaged. Underwater detection equipment would have to be installed to monitor the approach of any undesirable guests. An Iron Dome System would have to be produced and purchased from Israel. Further out from the island a methane net system could be laid on the seabed to be used to sink unwanted ships in the area. So, you would have to choose an area which is owned out-right. Then, declaring it as a sovereign country some time when all the protective systems are in place. I don't think there is any country in the world who would want a sovereign country in their own country.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
      Quite correct, Owlsrayne. The several of us who have been working on the Atlantis Project estimate a total around $20 MM, and we have no Midas Mulligan yet. A developer did just enter the Gulch recently. Regarding domes, freedomforall and I are scoping out AI Domes on Saturday. Freedom found out about it, but it's only 10 minutes from my house! I had passed by it for years and never given it a second thought.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 5 years, 3 months ago
    Great idea, I am concerned there is not many oprtions where someone will not say they already own it. Look at what China has done in the South China sea, they just up and one day decide that they own it. How would you propose to protect Atlantis from such a power grab? Personally, I would prefer to just get off this rock and just go somewhere else, then you only have to contend with survival. Humanity has descended to such a corrupt level, I do not believe there is anywhere on earth you can set up shop, be free, and not have some dork come looking for you and tell you they own it.
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 3 months ago
    I find several TV series (that are now on neteflix btw) interesting to watch. "Walking Dead" can help in understanding how to deal with the destruction of the entire civilization as we know it. "Jericho" can help to understand the challenges inherent in the destruction of federal government and how it might go with just local government.

    I agree that an Atlantis would have to be self sufficient and not dependent on the looters, and would also have to be isolated so the looters didnt TAKE what it had. Defense and self-sufficiency would be paramount. It would be not far from the scenario in "walking dead", if you substitute existing governments and looters for the "zombies".
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 5 years, 3 months ago
    Having migrated many times in my life, I'm all for it and would pitch in with all my resources. Some requirements, though: 1. Must be independent and self-contained enough to be sanction-proof. 2. Must have desirable resources so no outside force will want to bomb it into oblivion. 3. Must have year-round good climate, not subject to natural disasters. 4. Must have state-of-the-art technology. Except for climate, Switzerland could be a model.
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  • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 3 months ago
    I like the idea of Atlantis. A question I have is would Atlantis actually have to be it's own state?That is if it were not a stand alone country. One of the many problems with life in America is all the federal & state laws that force counties, cities & towns into the same mold. State law says all cities must provide..... These laws would make Atlantis difficult. Thoughts???
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 5 years, 3 months ago
    Problem is, the true "owner," regardless of who holds title to the land, is a government. They will allow whatever they feel is in their interest, and will disallow whatever they deem counter to their interest, whenever they choose. Yes, some will abide by a legal document - for a time - but in the end, you are still subject to their whims.
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