Atlantis must be free

Posted by upston 5 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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Atlantis must be free or why bother.

Many of us chafe at the ever increasing grip Governments exert on their citizens
here in the US and around the world. The list ranges from the trivial like your toilet flush capacity or type of light bulb to the serious matters of choosing a doctor or school for the next generation. The list gets longer every day.

So if Atlantis is to offer any real relief it’s inhabitants must enjoy all the freedoms we have let slip away. “ In the public interest” they tell us. I see many forum comments on this subject each with a different spin on a new society but at the root of it all is the need to manifest a new destiny without big brothers help, for better or worse.

Al Gore, our oafish and misguided VP was wrong about almost everything in his statist outlook. , Global warming, from which he made millions in carbon credits to his demagogic attacks on the rich over tax cuts,” a risky tax scheme” a mantra he repeated again and again. But even a wooden headed puppet occasionally gets it right. “Controlling Legal Authority” his defense for illegally fund raising from the White House was a wonderful descriptive phrase and without it Atlantis has no future.

The answer for many like the Seasteaders is to drift about in international waters free from interference and the heavy hand of government , not so according to their own consultants. At the Seasteading conference several years back a world class team addressed this matter and the news was grim. The experts pointed out that if anchored in a fixed location the justriction fell to the country controlling that chunk of sea floor or a treaty authority like the UN. If our new city was floating free it had to be a registered flag vessel of an existing nation and then comply with all the maritime regulations as would any other vessel.

The experts had a litany of issues that were well established international law insisting that just hanging out and hoping for autonomy was at best naive at worst foolish. Many at the conference expressed outrage and anger at this revelation , perhaps with moral justification but zero legal standing. So even if all the engineering issues could be overcome the bottom line is no Controlling Legal Authority.

After a fit of rebellion I trashed all the dersin concepts that in many ways resolved the high cost ,safety and expansion issues of a floating city and changed course, focusing instead on a firm legal foundation first and foremost. Whatever the plan it must have a proven track record and be able to survive the litigious challenges that would inevitably come at the first glimmer of the successful execution of Atlantis. by big brother and his acolytes.

The Happiest place on earth is the prototype my friends, yes Uncle Walt built the first theme park in Anaheim CA to the cat calls of the mob, it will never work they said as always but millions came and Disney Land quickly became a victim of it’s own success. Hotels and strip centers encircled the park like a strangler fig and the city of Anaheim turned from an ally to the enemy of the Disney company blocking it’s need for autonomy and expansion

Disney World just south of Orlando on the other hand vested Walt with all the power he needed to have Controlling Legal Authority over 27,000 acres of Florida swamp land.
The City of Lake Buena Vista was established by the State of Florida in the 60s giving it’s only resident , The Disney company, all the rights and responsibilities of a full blown city, construction permits, zoning, utilities, security, transportation, you name it Walt was in full control of his destiny and still,is today.

How did Disney get this authority from the state and how do corporatists do it today ie Tesla's battery factory was just awarded billions to build it’s deadly polluting lithium ion batteries in Nevada, it works every time it’s tried, that old libertarian concept, COMPETITION

In part 2 I will explain all the details of where how and when a new Atlantis is easily within our grasp if as Dr Strangelove said we have the “Will to do so”


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  • Posted by dbhalling 5 years, 3 months ago
    Very interesting. However, Rand's gulch did not ask for permission and neither should a floating city. While the Disney example is interesting, it cannot be a true gulch, because it is asking for permission, which can be refused or revoked.

    I am confused what this has to do with Competition. If you mean between states, then I doubt is will work, because the UN will be against allowing this sort of experiment.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
      Thanks for your comments, In the book the Valley was just hide out under the camo beam, cute but not a very realistic option. Legal standing is a precursor to any long term capital investment needed for any real society, we should not confuse anarchy and a libertarian community.The rule of law is not permission.
      You are correct that the US states offer no relief. the federal government is the problem and no state can resist it.ore protect us from it.

      The UN is a big part of the problem as well but my plan will let us hide in plain site .with total control of our own future.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 5 years, 3 months ago
        It is very unlikely that any gulch will get legal standing immediately. New countries of governments do not get legal standing. I agree that this would be ideal (and would promote capital investment) but I think it is clear from your article that it is not going to happen. Just like the US revolution, the founders are going to have to declare that they are a sovereign nation and make their case.
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        • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
          And they made that case in blood. "We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

          We are talking, by the way, about allodial title. You'd have to go to war to win that.
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          • Posted by dbhalling 5 years, 3 months ago
            I think it can be won with a PR battle. It would look pretty silly for a US battleship to attack a bunch of people living peacefully.
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            • Posted by CircuitGuy 5 years, 3 months ago
              "I think it can be won with a PR battle. It would look pretty silly for a US battleship to attack a bunch of people living peacefully. "
              The attack would start with some scandal. A Gulch resident is exonerated by Gulch courts in the death of a US citizen who died in an accident, perhaps while engaging in risky behavior. The US gov't accuses the Gulch of harboring an accused murderer and of ongoing safety violations for allowing the risky behavior.

              I hope I'm wrong and such scandals could be resolved without force.
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            • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
              You mean, the way Mohandas Ghandi won the War for the Independence of India? Yes, that might work. Trouble is, I see no Lord Mountbatten on the horizon, willing to negotiate a settlement.
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              • Posted by dbhalling 5 years, 3 months ago
                I think the other point is to start small. By the time they really notice, you are big enough that taking action looks bad. In some senses that is how the US came into being, but I think the willingness to force (openly) is less today.
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      • Posted by johnpe1 5 years, 3 months ago
        why can't a powerful and wealthy group of people
        just move into and overtake a country like Belize?
        if you can buy a mansion there for $25k, the place
        could be controlled by a Koch brother. -- j

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  • Posted by jimslag 5 years, 3 months ago
    Interesting correlation to Disney. I knew about as I worked there back in the 70's, Disney World in Florida that is. I worked on setting up robotics on Space Mountain and other attractions.It was an interesting time but it grew old very quickly and I left for the mountains of Colorado and the desert of Las Vegas. That was in another lifetime and I have grown and prospered since then. Prospered not just monetarily but knowledge wise and enhanced my common sense. I believe in liberty and America as an ideal, not just a geographic location. The american Dream lives, just not in the United States or the Washington conglomerate collection of departments. All 50 of them, or in the words of our illustrious President 57(?). Don't know where he went to school, must have been in Indonesia. However, I like Belize as it has a small government, does not interfere in the lives of it's citizens and property is comparatively cheap. There plenty of developments there for those that need modern amenities. Or you can move into the Cayo or Orange Walk Districts and buy a farm or an eco-property. Just an idea, doing research as my parents just moved there in February. Nice house just outside the capital on a nice lot in a nice neighborhood. They love it and don't ever want to come back. It is not for everyone, it is like the US was back in the 50's. No Mega-Stores like Wal-Mart, no shopping malls as we know them, the biggest city is Belize City with around 58,000 population. Most cities are much smaller, the entire country only has a population of 341,000. You can pick your own Atlantis, I know where I am going, it just a matter of when I have had enough to call it quits.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
      Belize is a good option with many redeeming features especially the banking system which is the only place they will not give account information to the Feds. That said try and carry a weapon and you won't know what hit you. I have a friend that moved from Belize City to the US when he was 12 and soon after arriving got his first pair of shoes.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
        Belize was considered and rejected for more than just the gun ownership reason.
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        • Posted by johnpe1 5 years, 3 months ago
          I wonder what else, Dr. Jim ....... -- j

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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
            It's good hearing from you again. Numerous family members of mine on a cruise unanimously agreed that it was the worst port they have been to. They have been on about 6-8 cruises throughout the Caribbean.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 5 years, 3 months ago
              wife and I went to Belize on a cruise (we've been
              on about 8, ourselves), and though it was rustic
              and the roads were rough, it was impressive in
              that the people speak english and their connection
              with britain remains fairly healthy. . bet that Bill Gates
              could buy it. -- j

              p.s. I'm mighty glad that you are doing well
              and staying in here with us!!!

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  • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 3 months ago
    It is important to remember that Atlas Shrugged is a novel whose hero has the secret super power of such a high charisma (gaming sense, not religious sense) that he can persuade all (of a really tiny number) of producers to abandon society. The Gulch to which they went in the 1950's novel could not exist in casual obscurity in today's monitored world. The ratio of Wyatts (who shrug) to Dagnys (who do not) is incredibly high in AS. In today's world, the ratio is not only reversed...there are millions of producers who are hanging on, not one Dagny.

    This means that while AS is a good crucible in which the values of production vs parasitism is explored, it is not a model that can be used as a template in the 21st century. For example: there is nowhere on earth that a group of people cannot be observed, brought within legal bounds of some country (or UN jurisdiction) or other, and have military power brought to bear on them.

    If Atlantis were successful, but not politically significant, then it would be the prey of pirates. If it became a significant power, then existing governments would vie for control of it. There is a very low bar to 'too unimportant to bother with' in the US (and in other countries as well) and that goal if obscurity is even harder to attain when you add 'and the community is composed of high-tech producers of value items'. Yes, a few hundred people in a pastoral Peruvian community can be 'under the radar'. What do you think would happen if there were 500,000 people in that community? What would happen if those people began thriving industries that resulted in new and profitable inventions? How would the next socialist Peruvian government respond to that?

    I have read many plans for Atlantis, and none of them seem to me to be plausible. (What I am tending towards is a 'jump rope' opportunistic path...but that is still an early hypothesis.)

    Jan
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    • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
      Please expand on Jump Rope
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      • Posted by $ jlc 5 years, 3 months ago
        Thank you for your patience, upston. (It has been busy at work, and I wanted to take the time to try to express this thought accurately.)

        What started my cogitations on the 'jump rope' was reading (due to comments on this list months ago, ahem!) about the allodial ownership of property in Nevada (see wiki article:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title#Nevada). This opportunity took place between 1997 and 2005 (one cannot apply to own land allodially in Nevada since 2005). But - for a brief time - there was a window of opportunity there. Then, separately, I read about Rand Paul promoting low tax 'Economic Freedom' zones. And, of course, all of us know about the free towns of the ancient and medieval world.

        On another topic, I sometimes amuse myself by looking on the net for other countries that are explicitly freer than the US (not just ones where you can be below the threshold of being noticed). No go. There is also a question that must be answered in locating Atlantis in a country (or in 'no' country): where can one live that Putin [insert name of bully of choice] will hesitate to send tanks to run over your garden fence?

        So, putting this all together, here is the Jump Rope. Obviously, for a brief time in Nevada, there was a successful attempt to reclaim some lost freedoms. There are states in the US, such as Texas and Alaska, that are not as far along the socialist program as the rest of the country is. We _may_ even now be swinging back to a more conservative point on the political spectrum. When we get to a moment where the rope is swinging right and we think we can 'jump into the game' we may be able to get the legislature of a 'very red' state to establish 'Freedom Zones', within which the absence of regulation and tax-based services is exchanged for the freedom from (most) taxes. (There is precedent for this with respect to the Amish. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Amis...)

        We would have (and pay taxes for) the military protection of the US. But we would also have access to sales markets, technology, and personnel. Also important, were we successful, we would have access to Envy as our people prospered in comparison to the surrounding folk.

        The advantage we have is that capitalism and freedom actually work. Socialism does not (though in an affluent society it may take a century to prove that).

        That is the Jump Rope.

        Jan
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    • Posted by Kova 5 years, 3 months ago
      I wonder if a possible solution would be to set up "miniature pocket Gulches" in various places, each with a few hundred or thousand people to escape radar...but all in connection with one another?
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    • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
      Hi Jan
      Not enough Galts,No place to hide, Pirates,government tale over, these are great points.

      It just takes one Galt and a few others who get it. Lots of folk traveled the Oregon Trail, once the path was cleared.

      Pirates are easy to handle with even a rudimentary security force.
      Uncle Sam is another matter.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 5 years, 3 months ago
    About a year ago, I proposed looking into a sea-based development for an Atlantis. Not "seasteading" as currently implemented, examples of which are tied to existing nations and follow their laws, but an entirely new, independent nation, with its of own defense system. Until such time that this can become a reality, considering financial and technical issues, I proposed working out the details of the new nation – legal and cultural, as well as technical. Thus, when a billionaire with greater vision than Bill Gates appears, there will be a blueprint ready to. From a legal viewpoint, ocean-based nation is perhaps the easiest, but perhaps a few small islands could be purchased from an existing country that would come with a complete abrogation of any claims from that country? With much lesser financial and technical investment, this could become a reality in our lifetime. I believe that the key to a successful new nation will be self-sufficiency (nuclear power) and defense (again, nuclear).
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    • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 12 months ago
      Atlantis could become the new North Korea.
      "A dangerous regime controlled by economic terrorists calling themselves objectivists"

      (In case you can't tell, I agree with you on the defense issue.)
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  • Posted by $ Temlakos 5 years, 3 months ago
    He's right: somehow Atlantis must stand alone. Now in AS, Atlantis stood alone because it lay hidden. Not only hidden, but unsuspected.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
    Welcome to the discussion, Upston. Several of us have been game planning for Atlantis for some time.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 3 months ago
      Hi J, In fact it was your postings that encouraged me to get in. Thanks for being the pioneer, they get the arrows.
      This is real to me as I see no happy ending given out current track, I hope I am wrong but hope is not a plan.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 3 months ago
        Both in the Producers Lounge and outside it, there are a couple of threads that might interest you if you type in Atlantis and homework into the thread search bar.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 12 months ago
    Basically nothing was done but declare surrender because there was no legal support.
    When has there ever been legal support to create a new country? Never.
    Expecting legal support is nothing more than an admission by a planted NWO supporter that they won't approve it. Big surprise!
    We have the same rights to a separate country that Jefferson described in the Declaration of Independence.
    If we aren't willing to plan and fight for it, we won't get it and don't deserve it.
    No one is going to hand freedom over to us.
    The challenge is to find the way that is least likely to result in military action against us.
    No country is going to hand over any land that they control, and no country in the world has the small government that we desire. So picking one and spending hundreds of millions after getting permission from them is nothing but surrender to dictatorship.

    Willing to pledge your life, fortune, and sacred honor?
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  • Posted by Herb7734 5 years, 3 months ago
    As a sidebar: There are groups trying to portray Walt Disney as a pedophile. Not true. He was a good and for the most part an honorable man. They couldn't defeat him in life, so they try to besmirch him in death.
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    • Posted by $ pixelate 5 years, 3 months ago
      I have ready plenty about Disney, both the man and the corporation. I have never encountered any material that would denigrate Disney in such a way. I suspect that these scurrilous accusations are being set out by insecure individuals that envy what Disney created. If you can point me in the direction of these sources, I would be glad to point the light of objective truth over their insinuations.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 5 years, 3 months ago
        Disney (The corporation) was always meticulous about protecting its copyrights. I once wrote a satire of Disney claiming copyright on the word "world" as in Disney World. In Glenn Beck's newest book on the bios of important people, he does a profile on Disney that he spoke about on his radio program. I don't know if it's out yet. It's positive, and he attacks those who would put Walt down.
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