Alternative interpretation of Atlas Shrugged

Posted by nonconformist 10 months, 1 week ago to Ask the Gulch
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I would like to request your comments (and valid criticisms) regarding my "alternative" views on Atlas Shrugged. Please let me know if I went wrong somewhere with my reasoning.

## Introduction

I might be considered a fan of Atlas Shrugged and the exploration of the ideas expressed therein, however, I am unable to hold back my dismay at the conclusions that the reader is ushered to about the fictional story laid out it the novel. If the described events took place before my very eyes in real life (as some would say is the case these days), I would reach completely different conclusions. In my humble opinion, Ayn Rand was going in the right direction but totally missed the mark.

Collectivism/socialism/altruism/over-regulation seem to be presented as the causes of the stagnation and collapse of society in Atlas Shrugged. On the other hand, individualism, capitalism, free markets and individual rights are presented as the driver for prosperity. Although this may make sense in a way, I would disagree, but not for the reasons that you might think.

From my point of view, there exists a widespread misunderstanding, ignorance and/or denial of certain concepts in at least the western culture. In fact, some things people believe in are plain wrong.

## Concept #1

There appear to be two mutually exclusive survival strategies in nature. It is the question of optimization for quantity versus quality, as expressed in the r/K selection theory regarding species nature. It also applies to human intellectual space. It is individualism versus collectivism, capitalism versus socialism. It is more advantageous for some people to adhere to individualism and for others to adhere to collectivism. Both are absolutely valid and workable in their most optimal circumstances. This must be true, otherwise there would not be r-selected species. I am not a collectivist/socialist myself, but I believe that collectivism is not necessarily what is causing problems.

You guys adhere to individualism because it is the survival strategy you have chosen. You might think that collectivism is wrong because it can't possibly make sense, but in reality it does to some. If you would open your mind and consider the other survival strategy, you would see that it might actually make sense in certain circumstances.

Collectivism is utterly incompatible with and polar opposite to individualism. It is not "wrong", it is just not your cup of tea. An individualist cannot have success in a collectivist society, and vice versa.

## Concept #2

It would seem that most people don't see the elephant in the room, so to speak, the gravest danger to the human species, the thing that is creating all the human-caused problems in the world. It is as if everyone is has a giant blind spot or some sort of cognitive deficiency.

This mysterious thing that everyone ignores is..... PREDATION.

Predation is everywhere in nature. There is no reason to think that it wouldn't exist among humans. My theory is that human-on-human predation (transfer of wealth) is the most powerful force in society. The lack of predation between individuals leads to civilizational boom. Then, predation slowly appears and starts growing in society, eventually consuming it from within and leading to civilizational demise. I believe it is the exact primary reason for the rise and downfall of most, if not all, societies, past, present and future.

I believe that Ayn Rand (and others) conflate two completely separate things: collectivism and predation. It is my view that the looters in Atlas Shrugged are not looting because they are collectivists (even if they proclaim to be). They are looting because they are looters that use collectivism as a convenient cover. You see, looters are politically agnostic. They exist in capitalist societies too, such as those running Ponzi scheme companies, "donating" to politicians for unfair advantage, etc.

If some collectivist group exists that want to have a socialist society then they should be allowed to do it. If they fail, that's their problem. If they succeed, good for them. Individualists don't really need to care about it because they will not be joining. The problem occurs when you have the biggest predator, the state, forcing society (by violence and trickery) to adhere to collectivism against its will. You see, the state is a predatory organization. It seeks to prey on society. Any claims made by the state of it being in service to society is a facade. The state uses not only force but also all kinds of psychological tricks, including things like gaslighting, to make the population give up sovereignty. It uses socialism as one of those tricks to allow for confiscation of property. It then skims off the top (or takes most of it) while doing the redistribution. If a collectivist society was to exist, it wouldn't be centrally planned, decisions would be reached in a decentralized way and it would be voluntaristic. Otherwise, it is just a predatory organization preying upon the masses. You can't have collectivism with a small number of individuals controlling the group.

I always cringe a bit when I think of the way Ayn Rand presents the protagonist class. Thinking of these guys and gals as productive and beneficial to society may not always be correct. In some cases, they might be perpetrators of indirect human predation even while not realizing it. Predation does not need socialism to work.

## Concept #3

There appear to be a small percentage of society that want "liberty" and "limited government". This gives me hope, but also causes me distress because they misunderstand "freedom." The state doesn't want to over-regulate the population because they have nothing better to do. The state wants maximum control over the population to extract its wealth. Wanting "limited government" is like wanting the thief to steal a bit less.

There is no liberty but freedom from predation. The desire for power always boils down to the desire for the wealth of others because that is exactly what they are using it for and there is no point in having it otherwise. It is no wonder that "freedom" leads to prosperity, remove the parasite and the host prospers. Predation, however, always takes hold eventually.

Atlas Shrugged naively seems to convey the idea that government bureaucrats are not very competent. They clumsily cause issues for productive people by excessive regulations and taxation. However, I would argue that in reality the bureaucrats know exactly what they are doing and they are very good at it. Regulation is used by crony capitalists to create monopolies (with bureaucrat's help in exchange for kickbacks). That is predation. Taxation is also predation. True freedom is not about freedom to pursue your ambitions. It is about freedom from predation.

## Concept #4

The idea that prosperity can only be brought about by the free market, personal rights, capitalism and individualism is a misconception. Prosperity is abundance of wealth. Wealth does not magically appear in society. It is PRODUCED. You don't necessarily need individualism or any market whatsoever to produce or be prosperous. You might just have an army of robots doing everything for you and you may not even need to be a member of society.

It is possible that free market societies have higher production efficiency for the simple reason that there is less predation in such societies. However, any market that is "non-free", in my humble opinion, is illegitimate, likely predatory and shouldn't even exist. The idea that personal rights can be granted is also wrong. Rights cannot be granted, only taken away by an illegitimate force.

It is also possible that individualism and self-interest promotes entrepreneurship. However, these things by themselves are not the source of wealth. A business must be productive. You can have plenty of entrepreneurs but if they are wasting resources then society becomes less wealthy. The source of wealth is production. Producing more than consuming leads to excess production and accumulation of wealth. Of course, wealth has depreciation, so, eventually you get a situation in which you are barely able to keep what you have. However, if you invest wisely into increasing production efficiency then this limit continues to increase.

Inventing stuff doesn't necessarily lead to more wealth. If you invent a new type of paint, it might not create new demand but only take away demand from previously existing types of paints. This will not result in change in total wealth. What you really want is to invent production efficiency increasing things. This is a highly specific type of invention that has nothing to do with individualism. Collectivists can likely invent this type of stuff too.

For some reason, there exist a number of wrong assumptions about capitalism, such as, profit is always a positive thing and something that is generated by default. However, this is not the case. "Positive" (or wealth-increasing) profit is generated by a specific method: localized increase in productivity. All other profit is a transfer of wealth from someone else. Let's assume that we have competition in production of some widget. In such environment, profit will likely not be generated because the competing producers will lower their prices until there is no more profit. The only way in that situation to generate profit is to increase your productivity by some method. The problem is, once you do it, you will be able to generate profit for a limited amount of time only. Once your competitors catch on, they will adopt your method and will be able to start lowering their prices again. You must use the limited time you have to generate enough profit to get back the invested capital, the research and development costs of the method that gave you the increased productivity. If you are lucky, you might even be able to generate more capital than initially invested. Sometimes you are going to be in the red and likely go bankrupt. I would claim that profit in capitalism is a bit of a lie at least in the long run, a carrot that keeps business people going. If you generated profit but didn't increase productivity (in society as a whole) then you are a part of a process that is not wealth-generating (in terms of the entire system). You just managed to charge extra for something that would ordinarily cost less. That had the effect of transferring wealth from your customers to you. There are many inefficiencies in the system that can be taken advantage of to do these wealth transfers and the end result is most likely a net loss for society. Some of these are voluntary but some are not. If you invest into a bank robbery by buying robbers gear in exchange for a share of their spoils then you would be investing into an activity which is a transfer of wealth but also a significant loss of wealth (to society as a whole). That would result in decrease in prosperity. My point is that profit can only be prosperity-increasing if it is generated from increase in productivity. One must always analyze the net effect on society by any business activity to be able to tell whether the given activity promotes prosperity. I would consider any business activity that results in net negative total wealth and prosperity to be predatory.

Capitalists accuse socialists of wrongfully accusing capitalist that they have gotten their fortunes by screwing everybody else. I think both sides are wrong. Socialists are wrong because not all fortunes were made by preying on others. Capitalists are also wrong because not all fortunes are made without preying on others. Predation is profitable. You can enrich yourself by being productive but you can also enrich yourself by engaging in questionable transfers of wealth. Why not do both at the same time? I believe that if we were to analyze the top fortunes ever built, we will likely find that the wealth was a result of a greatly productive enterprise as well as a predatory one at the same time. The reason for this is, in order to get to the top you need all the help you can get.

So, even if you have a free market, capitalism and individualism, you may still get stagnation or collapse of society due to the continuing net losses caused by the activities its members are engaging in.

## Concept #5

Society has been brainwashed by the state to think that there needs to be an organization (government) with a monopoly on violence to protect them. However, this organization that the masses have granted the monopoly on violence to is the exact entity that the masses need protection from. Even if you start out with the most benevolent government, eventually it will be taken over by predatory entities and lead to societal enslavement. The only way to keep law an order in a just way is to derive all laws from logic and the most universal assumptions, such as the golden rule. No law should exist because of preferences of a single man or a majority. All laws must be proven to be universally acceptable and must be assumed to have always existed. For example, the no use of force (except in self-defense) rule can be derived from the golden rule. No one else in society but logic and reason may impose rules on its members. Disagree with this at your own peril.

The state is truly the most heinous crime continuously perpetrated against humanity since the dawn of civilization. It is responsible for unimaginable amount of death and destruction. Think of all the wars between nations, poverty, pollution, destruction of nature, waste of natural resources, etc. The sheer scale of damage is impossible to fully grasp.

There are two kinds of people in government: those that know it is a scam and knowingly participate and those that haven't figure it out yet. One grift is the government pension system. Not only is it a Ponzi, but it is also a way for government to skim people's savings (or steal them entirely).

The state is as much of a master of control by force as it is a master of control by manipulation. The brainwashing, gaslighting and misdirection is so strong that the masses cannot possibly hope to get out from under all the manipulative programming. The state takes over society's education to brainwash children from an early age, providing it free of charge to eliminate competition. It is very difficult to fight such a system.

People are duped into participating in predatory activities without even understanding the significance of what they are doing. The mentality of entitlement is not an accident. It is seeded by the state in the population to act as a control mechanism. People's greed is used against them. If they repent and revolt against the state, they will lose their government-provided benefits.

Don't even get me started on the "serving your country" swindle. Most states use the uniformity of society (common language, ethnicity and culture) to form the concept of "fatherland" or "motherland" in their subjects. It is an especially strong brainwashing technique because it pits ethnicity against ethnicity on a very deep level, which is very hard to overcome. The state ties its destiny to the destiny of the members of its ethnicity. The brainwashed drones blame the ethnicity of the opposite state for all of their problems when the real culprits are the states fighting each other for control of resources and causing a great deal of damage to their (mostly) innocent subjects. Sometimes states make it a point to exterminate the opposite ethnicity to further cement a sense of existential struggle in their subjects and eliminate any possibility of defection. The brainwashed participate in raping and pillaging of the opposite peoples. This creates deeply rooted multi-generational hatred between ethnic groups. They focus their energy on killing each other instead of working together for mutual enrichment.

Society can, however, have a non-criminal organization, preferably multiple competing organizations, that manage society, so long as it is voluntary, they follow the same rules as everyone else with no exceptions, they have no special privileges and the rules are not made up by anybody nor anything other than logic and reason.

## Concept #6

I would agree that property rights are extremely important, however, I believe that property is not defined correctly. I don't believe in property by claim. I only believe in property by investment of labor and capital. If you just claim something is yours then you are wrong. The part of the thing that belongs to you is the result of your labor, not the thing by itself. If someone inflicts damage on the result of your labor then they must pay you for the damage. If you exchanged your labor for someone else's labor then the fruits of their labor is now yours and vice versa. If you claim that the sun is yours and now everyone must pay you for the use of sunlight then you are a rent seeker. If a resource didn't exist and you created it, then the labor you put into making it work belongs to you and you can reasonably demand payment for your services, assuming they are accepted voluntarily. However, if someone else does something similar then they are also entitled to the fruits of their labor. You cannot claim monopoly on the production of something.

I don't believe in the existence of "intellectual property". Information should be protected by a contract. If you don't want your invention to be copied then keep it a trade secret, sign a non-disclosure contract with your customers and sue for damages if they break it. Monopolies, including intellectual property monopolies, can only exist if they are enforced by violence. Intellectual property can be used as part of a mechanism for preying on society. For example, consider patent trolling.

Intellectual property doesn't even make sense. What are property rights but an exclusive right of use? Information does not have the inconvenience of physical property, which is being unusable non-exclusively. By making a copy, I do not cause any damage to the original copy and it still can be used. Intellectual property right has less to do with property and more to do with sharing information and possibly profit from sharing information. With intellectual property laws, producing the original copy has a spooky action at a distance effect, whereby everyone else is prohibited from arranging information bits in a similar way even if they are not aware of the existence of the original copy. This is unfair. If I glean information without agreeing beforehand not to share it, I should be free to share it without any limitations. You guys are so preoccupied thinking about defending intellectual property rights of the first assembler of information that you forgot about defending the same rights of the second one, third, forth, and so on. I understand that getting rid of this "right" might cause problems for someone's business model, but so does regular competition, and we all appear to agree that is permissible.

In a free market, prices are set by supply and demand. Competition increases supply, lowering prices. What mechanism would a free market use to set a price of a patent? There isn't one. You either agree to the patent holder's licensing price or you go without. Intellectual property laws don't allow you to invent the same thing independently. If that was possible, someone might even do it for much cheaper then the first (to file!?!?) inventor and would therefore be able to ask a lower price. While you guys are busy suing each other for imaginary damages, China completely destroyed your whole business model and even used your laws against you. Now companies are forced to go about it the right way anyway and opt for trade secrets. What a joke. If you spent the same amount of effort on productive things like R&D instead of lawyers and frivolous lawsuits, there would have been much more progress and prosperity.

I will agree that there exist some types of information producing enterprises that cannot easily use contracts or trade secrets to guard against someone ripping them off. I don't have an answer for how those cases should be handled, however, one thing is certain: violence must not be used to protect their business model.

As I understand, Ayn Rand would be a proponent of intellectual property. I can reasonably conclude that she must be an apologist for statism. Only an organization such as the state can possibly defend such a misnomer as intellectual property. Allow me to put forward the idea that proponents of intellectual property are useful tools for the state, justifying its existence. It would appear consistent with Ayn Rand's redirection of the blame for societal problems from the real culprit, predatory statism, to collectivism, altruism and other more-or-less benign things.

## Conclusion

My view is that you guys are misunderstanding what is going on. The stagnation and collapse of society is brought about by over-predation, not collectivism, excessive bureaucracy, etc. It is naive to think otherwise. Your real enemy is much scarier and much more powerful than some silly socialists or unintelligent bureaucrats. The sad truth is that most productive people will live out their lives, for the most part, in service to predatory entities, regardless of whether they live under capitalism or socialism. No matter how productive you are, they are always going to find a way to squander all of your productivity and then some.

I humbly submit for your consideration my opinion that predation better explains the events in Atlas Shrugged than the explanation implied by Ayn Rand. The primary factor of human progress is not individualism, innovation, ambition, entrepreneurs, personal rights, self-interest, reason, etc. These things are certainly related. The primary factor of human progress is the inverse of the amount of predation that exists in society.

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my mind on anything said above in the event that it is proven wrong.


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  • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
    To me, this set of questions is far too long for a forum like this. Maybe a link to an article for those who wish to read it and a one or two concepts to analyze. Also, one would have to become knowledgeable of r/K selection theory to even address concept #1. Regarding #1, it seems to evade man as a rational being, of volitional consciousness, his own life as the primary value, and reason as the only absolute. These are essential precepts. To evade those likely renders the rest of the post to be irrelevant.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      I understand what you are saying about self-interest, however, I don't think you are right. Humans are known to sometimes sacrifice themselves for someone else, such as parents for their children, soldiers for their buddies, etc.

      I bring up concept #1 only to soften my target. If you do not agree with what it is about, that doesn't render the rest of what I have to say irrelevant.

      I'm sorry for an extremely large post.
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      • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
        Sacrifice is a term, much like selfishness and for the same reason, that has an objective meaning and purpose that is more in line with its original definition, and far more useful. To give up a lower value for a higher value is not sacrifice. It is perfectly rational, and context must always be considered including available choices.
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        • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
          It seems like my examples demonstrate a 'collectivist' tendency, giving up one's life for the greater good. That appears to be a lower value to the individual, but maybe I am wrong. I'll have to think about it.

          My main point is that one should not focus on how much they don't like collectivism. One should focus on who is forcing collectivism on everybody and for what reason exactly.
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          • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
            Actually, a significant asoect of Ms. Rand's ethics, as demonstrated many ways in her novels, is to dismiss anti-life people and ideas and focus on one's own values, productiveness, pride, and happiness. You fight injustice only when necessary and move on. Evil is impotent.
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            • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
              By writing this post I was hoping to get feedback from you guys about my hypothesis about predation and how it better fits Atlas Shrugged story, but you guys are too distracted by my thoughts on collectivism... :) I regret bringing them up now...
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              • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
                Predation: 1) The preying of one animal on others. 2) The action of attacking or plundering. I'm glad I didn't read your Concept #2 until now or I wouldn't have been so patient with you. It is you who don't see the elephant in the room. You willfully ignore a fundamental precept of Objectivism and then criticize the entire system. Men are rational beings born with the attribute of volitional consciousness. You prefer the malevolent universe premise of never-ending chaos and the animal instincts of determinism. Your time would be better spent learning the integrations of Objectivism. You are not qualified to critique it. Maybe dive into Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology.
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                • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                  What gives you the idea that I reject objectivism? I don't. I actually think it is pretty self-evident.

                  I completely agree with men being rational. The one thing I would add is, rationality of a person's decisions is not perfect. Someone might be mistaken about facts, for example. This would result in their logical conclusions being wrong.

                  When I use the word "predation", what I mean is illegitimate transfer of wealth from one member of society to another, from the person who has earned it to the person who has not. It is very similar concept to preying of animals on others, except translated to interactions between humans in terms of wealth. This obviously happens, would you not agree? There are some people that decide it is easier for them to steal than to put in the effort and produce. Is that not the case?

                  I don't know why you would disagree with me. What I'm saying seems pretty rational and objective.
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                  • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
                    I didn't say you reject Objectivism. I do say you may want to study it a lot more before attempting sound judgment on a novel like Atlas Shrugged. I agree with you that many in this group are focused on politics and not terribly interested in its philosophical principles. Of course, some are, but not as active.
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                    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                      I will have to do more research now that you brought to my attention that I am ignoring something.

                      If you can tell me what I've gotten wrong, that would be immensely helpful.

                      However, so far nobody has shown me the specific issue with my reasoning.

                      I don't see how the idea of free will causes problems for my hypothesis about predation.
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                      • Posted by mshupe 10 months, 1 week ago
                        For what its worth, predation presumes violence, coersion or fraud. That is fundamental to violations of rights. Individual rights are a moral principle. In a civilized society, rights guarantee everyone the ability to act on their own rational judgment. Only predation prevents that. Capitalism is the only socioeconomic system that respects rights.
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                        • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                          I don't know if I would buy all of what you said. I guess it also depends on how you define morality and rights. I do agree with you that predation is a violation of rights.

                          This might be a rhetorical question and I am not defending any other system in any way, but if capitalism is so righteous then why do capitalist societies allow violations of what I would consider to be "rights"?

                          1. As I understand it, monopolies cannot exist without enforcement (with violence and coercion). Then why do you guys grant monopolies on use/sharing of information (intellectual property) and protect it with violence and coercion?

                          2. Why do you guys allow military draft? It is a probabilistic confiscation of life.

                          3. Why is collection of taxes allowed. It is a protection racket.

                          4. Crime is punished (lightly) instead of being forced to pay back for the damage caused. That is not very rational or respectful of rights.

                          5. Some things are crimes when they don't violate anybody's rights, such as consumption or possession of "illicit" substances. I would call THAT a violation of rights.

                          6. Why is a government granted the monopoly on running a country and "insurrection" not allowed? It is not very "free market" of you guys...

                          7. Why are there Ponzi schemes?

                          8. Why is there crony capitalism?

                          9. Why do people borrow currency out of thin air? Why is the government creating currency out of thin air? Every time new currency is created without a corresponding amount of wealth being created, the value of existing currency owned by other people is diluted. This is theft.

                          I can see a lot of individualists in capitalist societies engaging in what I would consider to be predation. The supposedly capitalist system even protects some of these activities. I would not be so quick to praise capitalism for its protection of rights.

                          As an individualist, of course I would back capitalism. But I realize it doesn't solve the main problem. Also, I feel the whole thing with blaming collectivism is a misdirection. What you should be blaming is predation and statism. The collectivists also blame capitalism for all their problems but when I trace those problems, it turns out most of them are caused by predation and/or the state. It is like you guys are directed at each other with some sort of divide and conquer strategy.
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    • Posted by kddr22 10 months, 1 week ago
      I agree completely, to not act with a volitional consciousness is to back to tribal mentality and away from the individual. AR stated this many times in her nonfiction writing as well, progress should be setting us free from the collective not reversing back to it
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      • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
        You make it sound that individualism is a more evolved form of society (as opposed to collectivism). Can you explain why you think this is true?

        My understanding is, as stated previously, that these are mutually exclusive survival strategies that are equally valid but in different circumstances.

        My goal is to persuade you guys not to fight collectivism itself but to fight the predatory state and its forced imposition of collectivism on an incompatible individualistic society.
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    • Posted by mhubb 10 months, 1 week ago
      we've seen the collective in action many, many times
      and the millions murdered
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      • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
        I think you may have missed what I was trying to say: the ones doing the murdering are not peaceful collectivists but predatory statists.
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        • Posted by mhubb 10 months, 1 week ago
          peaceful collectivists?
          no such thing
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          • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
            Churches are pretty peaceful.

            Again, you are missing the gist of my argument. Those are not the collectivists you are thinking of. Those are predatory organizations that seek to live off other people's capital, pretending to be collectivists.

            You should know that these predatory organizations don't always hide behind collectivism. If it is convenient for them, they are just as likely to appear individualistic.

            I am not advocating for collectivism. I am advocating for putting the blame on the true culprit.
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            • Posted by mhubb 10 months, 1 week ago
              really?
              see what is going on in France lately?

              churches are not collectivists in the true sense
              not how i understand the word

              best you define your terms before you throw them out

              collectivists == what Stalin tried and murdered millions trying to do
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              • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                Regarding France, it is a typical thing that is happening in the western world.

                Governments (predatory states) printed and spent way too much money, transferred a huge amount of wealth from the population to themselves, as is their true purpose. The population was left unable to support replacement level family size. Population size started falling. Governments started importing populations from the third world in hopes of continuing their scheme. The problem is that some of these populations are not very productive and are also sometimes collectivist. Now they have a problem. There is social unrest due to cultural incompatibility and the original problem (state predation). The economy has gone to shit because these new populations aren't exactly very economically productive.

                Enjoy the collapse guys.
                Unless... maybe you finally decide to do something about the source of the problem...
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              • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                collectivism
                noun
                1. the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it
                Example: "the Church has criticized the great emphasis placed on individualism rather than collectivism"

                ^ copy pasta from duckduckgo

                I want to reiterate that I am not a proponent of collectivism in any way. All I'm saying is that collectivism itself is not the cause of your problems. The issue is illegitimate use of force.

                Stalin was a criminal. He controlled a criminal organization that was doing all that murdering, raping and pillaging under the cover of collectivism. If collectivism wasn't a fad of the day at the time, they would try to use some other excuse to do the same.

                These days social democracy and Keynesian economics is the fad of the day, and what do you know... a similar thing is happening. Criminal organizations are raping and pillaging, in a way.

                I'm trying to get you guys to see that the real culprit is predation.
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                • Posted by mhubb 10 months, 1 week ago
                  LOL

                  excuse me for using the modern and practiced use

                  and not understanding you wanted to use a meaning that could never be really used in the real world

                  hint: The Pilgrims tried the first year they were here and nearly starved, second year they went to a REAL system called Private Enterprise where you kept whet you grew

                  :-)
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                  • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
                    I'm not necessarily against your point of view. My argument would be that Pilgrims were from the western culture and individualistic. Therefore, it was important for them to adhere to capitalism. If they had a collectivist culture, my hypothesis is that maybe their initial thing would have worked out. I'll be honest, I could be wrong, it is just a theory. I need some concrete data to back that up. It seems like it might be working somewhat over there in Asia. However, it is not clear because there is a lot of predation there too. It is possible they are not collectivist enough.
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  • Posted by $ Commander 9 months, 4 weeks ago
    Not once in this essay is the concept of Values iterated.

    The Objectivist's Ethics is the non-fiction expression of Atlas. Delivered once in 1961. Therein lies the crux of the matter. Why does a living organism, especially Man, need values. Without the reason-abled pursuit of answers to this question, everything becomes subjective.
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    • Posted by 9 months, 1 week ago
      I don't why you think the absence of reference to values is a problem. I am in no way denying that values exist. In fact, I have a very technical understanding of why values exist, but it is out of scope of this discussion, as far as I can tell.
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  • Posted by VetteGuy 10 months, 1 week ago
    You might want to split this up one "concept" at a time. I only got through #1 as I am recovering from eye surgery and can't focus for long.

    But in response to #1, has there ever been a collectivist society that succeeded over the long term? One that you would want to live in?

    You might also want to follow the discussions on "God of the Machine" as some of these concepts are given historical perspective there.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      In my view, all societies stagnate and/or collapse due to over-predation relatively quickly (maybe hundreds of years), including ones that are not collectivist.

      It would appear that there are some cultures in East/Southeast Asia that are somewhat collectivist. Religious communities are collectivist. I think Indian tribes were collectivist.

      When you guys are arguing against collectivism/central planning/etc, what you are actually arguing against is a collectivist state forcibly taking your stuff. I think you should drop the 'collectivist' part and just go for 'any kind of state forcibly taking your stuff'.
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      • Posted by VetteGuy 10 months, 1 week ago
        Collectivist implies that everything belongs to the "collective". There is no "your stuff". everything is "our stuff". Hard to achieve that without taking your stuff and giving it to the collective. Kinda baked in to the definition.
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        • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
          Members of the collective would voluntarily give it up in return for being part of the collective. No one would be forced into it. It would be completely unacceptable to force someone into a collective and take their stuff by force. Does collectivism require confiscation of property by force from individualists? I don't see why it would.

          If everyone in the collective agrees to what is going on, nobody is forced into anything and there is no fraud then I don't see why we shouldn't allow this to go on. If the structure is set up in a sustainable way, there is nothing preventing it from working.

          I think you guys will argue that human nature would prevent it from working. However, I would propose the idea that maybe individualists nature will prevent it from working (because individualists will not want to join a collective). But it might work in collectivist cultures. Is it possible to have a collectivist culture? I don't see why not. Are there currently collectivist cultures that exist? Good question. Maybe in East Asia?

          I think you guys are missing the main point I am trying to make. Collectivism is not the problem. Take your stuff by force is. Who does that? Predatory entities. Why do they do that? Because that is how they make a living.

          I was hoping to get feedback from you guys about my thoughts on predation, but you guys are too distracted by collectivism... :)
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          • Posted by VetteGuy 10 months, 1 week ago
            I think the point many here are trying to get across is that historically, collectivism and predation nearly always go together. Are there predators in other societies? Sure. But in collectivism, it is baked in.

            You talk about voluntary collectivism. That might work for a short time in a small group. Think hippie communes. When it happens on a larger (national) scale, the government gets involved and there is nothing voluntary about it. Have you read Rand's "We the Living"?
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            • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
              I would assert that you guys are limiting yourselves to history of states, which limits you guys to implementation of collectivism by states.

              The thing is, the state/government (in the transitional sense) as I understand is illegitimate due to its illegitimate use of force.

              States have sovereignty and exercise full control over their subjects. Of course they are going to implement collectivism by force. They aren't going to allow people to opt out.

              I did also mention that states are predatory organizations. They implement collectivism so that they can confiscate private property, take a bunch of it for themselves and redistribute the rest. It is not an accident that their nation suffers. It is not because of collectivism but because they just misallocated resources. Then there is also the problem of the culture most likely being individualistic and people not wanting to live under collectivism. Individualists just give up and "go galt", also contributing to decreased productivity and prosperity.

              So, my view would be that predation is not necessarily baked in with collectivism, but rather baked in with statism.

              I haven't read "we the living yet" but from what I gather, it seems to be about wrongful actions by the state, probably related to what I am saying above.
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  • Posted by Binkley 9 months, 1 week ago
    I stopped with your statement: "Both [Socialism and Capitalism] are absolutely valid and workable in their most optimal circumstances."
    There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to start.
    1. Are you analogizing from lower creatures to man? As Pavlov did with his dogs?
    2. Socialism vs. Capitalism has more than a material foundation. It isn't just about enough food for a species, has Marx would have you think, when he asserted that all conflict is caused by economic inequality.
    3, Capitalism, as Rand envisioned it, in its moral foundations and not simply in its material manifestation, and as opposed to Socialism, exalts the unique, individual human being. As do I. For the Socialist, and any other Leftist idiotology, a person is only a 'brick', and has value only if he/it is attached to another brick.

    What did Stalin say? "The murder of one person is a tragedy; the murder of millions is a statistic."

    I had someone reply to me yesterday on RT, that even if there were a nuclear war/catastrophe/holocaust that it wouldn't be the end of mankind. In his thinking not all people would die, enough would be left to carry on, in perhaps a new way.
    Remember Dr. Strangelove? The general played by George C. Scott, when asked by his president (played by Peter Sellers) how many would die, replied "Ten, twenty million, tops!" And in his mind that was okay. (It was okay with Obamma too, when he watched the movie with me, to see what his reaction would be.) Is that okay with you? Because that is the very essence of the difference between the collective and the individual, and it is why there can be no compromise.
    As Ignacio Silone (Italian former Communist) said in the twenties or thirties in the last century, "Perhaps the [figurative] Last Battle will be between a Communist and an ex-Communist."

    Did I mention that you should check your premises?

    I think I should add that there is one REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE between man and all other creatures. Man has the power implicit in an extended sense of foresight. He has a sense of the awareness of the future, the "about-to-be" (the word future is Latin for the about-to-be), all other creatures do not. No man can tell you with 100% certainty what that future is going to be; he can only sense that it is there. And therein lieth the problems with man. Unless mankind is aware of this gift, and that it can bring anxiety and fear, no Marxist ideology that presumes to explain conflict, will be sufficient.
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    • Posted by 9 months, 1 week ago
      I don't think humans are above nature. They are part of it. In fact, I would go so far as to say that humans are nothing special.

      You may think of humans having attributes that no animals have:
      1. Language
      2. Social abilities
      3. Intelligence
      4. Use of tools

      However, a lot of life forms on earth share a lot of what man has.
      1. Monkeys have been known to have language, albeit a tiny one (~20 words), parrots can associate words with meaning and are able to reproduce words.
      2. Social animals are known to exist, such as wolves.
      3. Intelligence has been observed in animals, such as monkeys tricking other monkeys, ravens solving complicated puzzles.
      4. Animals have been known to use tools, like monkeys and ravens.

      Man just has more intelligence than other species, which allows man to be better at everything. But this is a question of quantity, not a question of having something special. I don't think sense of foresight is anything special in man. Man also has a combination of other attributes that work together to result in what we can observe, a species that is able to create civilization. I am sure in a number of millions years something else may be able to evolve with similar properties, if man was to go extinct without too much damage to the ecosystem.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 months, 1 week ago
    Many looters are portrayed as being incompetent in Atlas Shrugged, but certainly not all. Wesley Mouch and Floyd Ferris are portrayed as being quite competent at their evil objectives.

    Overall, your perspectives are intriguing. I have been contemplating a variant of your ideas. Consider the traditional patent process vs. the "open source" approach to 3D printing, for example. When something is open source, its technology is out on the Internet for all to see and build upon. However, capitalizing on this into a financially lucrative career becomes almost impossible for the traditional capitalistic inventor when open source is available as an alternate path. Rand was right when she said that the inventor would be the first occupation to disappear.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      You are right about looters being of different competency levels. That's probably what happens in the real world.

      I didn't quite catch your point regarding open source. But thanks for bringing it up, I would say open source is an example of (maybe) successful collectivism.

      I still think there is room for capitalistic inventors with trade secrets in a world where open source exists. They just have to beat the commune that maintains the competing open source project, which happens all the time. Another thing that happens quite a lot with liberally licensed OS projects is, private companies takes their code and privatizes it for profit. So, I would argue it goes both ways.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 months, 1 week ago
        Quite right about what you are saying. However, the danger for capitalist inventors in a partially open source world is that customers expect the cost to be the sum of the parts, leaving no room for value creation and recouping of time and effort on the inventor's part. Moreover, the time frame for innovation in an open source world is so radically faster that the time to recoup costs is no longer long enough.
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        • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
          I think it doesn't matter what customers expect. What matters is what they will pay. It will be any price lower than the cost of an alternative option, adjusted for various factors. If you make it so that they lose more money by not buying your product then they will have to do it or face financial loses. If they let their expectations override reason, then they deserve to go bankrupt, which will happen.

          An inventor should do market research and guesstimate the value of his invention product to his estimated customer base. If it is lower the the cost of R&D then the inventor should abandon his invention, at least until the situation changes.

          The one issue that happens is, due to predation and the state (taxes), there is a huge overhead that is added to both sides of the transaction. So, an inventor would have to account for that as well. At a certain predation saturation most inventions are not economically viable.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 months, 1 week ago
            If and when someone copies an inventor's invention, the customers will not pay the price that they otherwise would. Such copycats are like locusts.
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            • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
              This is a difficult issue to solve the right way. The inventor should take steps to prevent it without relying on the state.

              As I've mentioned before, if it is something that can be hidden, the inventor should opt for keeping it a trade secret. However, it is not always possible to do that. One idea is to invent 2 things, have the second thing capable of being hidden and have the first thing relying on the second thing to work. Nobody would be able to copy the first thing if they can't figure out what the second thing was.

              I do have one solution that I didn't mention here but it is rather involved and off topic.

              One thing I want to point out is that some of you guys inventors want way too much money for your inventions. Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlite
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  • Posted by $ 25n56il4 10 months, 1 week ago
    Dear Nonconformist, I can see you put a lot of thought into this topic and I respect that. But to me it seems you overthink the issue. I don't think Ayn Rand was as deeply involved as you are. She was writing from experience. I think she left it up to her readers to use their own God given resources. Understand, she lived in a different world. This crazy world we live in isn't 'typical'. Good Lord. We think people over 80 should be locked up in a dark room. I personally resent the hell out of that. My Aunt Jodie was vivacious and interesting at 104. My grandfather defended my rights to get a divorce when he was 94. Aunt Hazel learned to drive at 70. I just maxed my driving written tests and passed my driving part of the test at 86. Wanna Play with me? I am a writer and will be sending off five books to my publisher this month. Love and kisses. NB
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      I would argue that the objective reality itself doesn't change, it is people's understanding of it that changes.

      Over time, people refine their understanding of the world, or lose it entirely during a collapse of society.

      Not sure what you mean by 'play'.

      I wish there was a book about human predation, but as I've said, it appears this topic isn't even a thing. I was going to write a book myself about it because there is an inexplicable lack of understanding of it in the world. The issue is, I'm not a writer so it is going to be a little difficult. Predation in society seems such an obvious thing to me but nobody seems to get it. They should because it is an extremely consequential element of society IMHO.
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  • Posted by Flootus5 10 months, 1 week ago
    Yes, this is a huge undertaking to respond to. But let's step back a bit. This reminds me of a debating with a liberal - "yeah, but, yeah but, yeah but......"

    Recall that when there is an apparent contradiction in a discussion (or that something is "missing"), you must check your premises - one of them is wrong.

    The underlying and pervasive premise throughout this essay is as stated in Concept #2. That of predation and its proposal as an alternative to Atlas Shrugged.

    Here is one of the fundamental premises of Atlas Shrugged:

    "I swear -- by my life and my love of it -- that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

    This is in direct contradiction to the concept of predation. In a productive, peaceful society the banner on John Galt's housing structure for the generation of electricity is literally the hallmark. Predation is the fundamental coercive premise of the looter. The premise that there is something missing and especially that there is some sort of cognitive dissonance in Atlas Shrugged is.....wrong.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      Galt's oath (stated above) is why I am such a fan of Atlas Shrugged. I think everyone in any society should take that oath.

      "Predation is the fundamental coercive premise of the looter." - I absolutely agree.

      My argument is that predation was actually taking place in the Atlas Shrugged story, and that collectivism/altruism/etc was not the actual true cause of the collapse but a cover.

      Galt and company were the productive people. They seemed to have gotten away from being preyed upon. Good for them, I guess.

      I don't know why you are saying that the oath is contradiction to the concept of predation. The oath directly points to the fact that the strikers were against being predatory. They seem to be accusing the society of being predatory. They left society to let them crash, realize their malicious intent and repent. It is pretty clear to me that this whole thing is exactly about predation.

      I understand that Ayn Rand has made it look like collectivism has caused the collapse, but my point is that she must be mistaken. If the stuff was actually happening now, which I think it is, I can clearly see that predation (illegitimate transfer of wealth) is actually causing it. Sometimes it has to do with collectivism/altruism but sometimes crony capitalism is involved. This is not limited to a country, this is happening globally. Next step is a rapid fall in total wealth and global war by the predatory organizations over remaining scraps.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 months, 1 week ago
    I believe that the above the article, I mean) is a lot of double-talk, and makes very little (if any) sense. Collectivism is wrong because it is based on a lie: the lie of denial of the individual's fundamental reality (see Plato's
    Republic
    .) Also, Ayn Rand's defense of intellectual property (I had wondered about it as an adolescent) was "the right of a mind to what it has produced." She also said that if that legal right were abolished, the destruction of all other legal rights would follow, "as a brief postscript."
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      If you produced a piece of "intellectual property", that does not give you the right to decree no-one else produce the same thing and to throw someone in jail (or pay you royalties) if they accidentally produce the same thing as you . Also, it doesn't give you the right to have the state confiscate other people's property (taxes) to help you fund throwing those guys in jail.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      "Collectivism is wrong because it is based on a lie: the lie of denial of the individual's fundamental reality"

      Sounds like something an individualist might say. :)
      I mean, it is not wrong... I would agree as an individualist.
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-...
      "Double-talk is a form of speech in which inappropriate, invented, or nonsense words are interpolated into normal speech to give the appearance of knowledge, and thus confuse or amuse the audience."

      I apologize for potentially not making sense in some instances. Please quote what does not make sense and I will try to reword it so it makes more sense.
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  • Posted by mhubb 10 months, 1 week ago
    go re-read the United States Declaration of Independence

    and get back to us

    please explain the difference between what i create with my hands and what i create with my mind while you are at it
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    • Posted by 10 months, 1 week ago
      What would be your point regarding the Declaration of Independence? I am aware of what it says. I like some of it, but some of it is wrong, IMHO. I don't believe that there is a creator. I have rights because of logic and reason, not because a deity allowed me to have rights. The creators of the document appear to be statists, but ones that maybe didn't realize the true purpose of statism (predation). The idea that "government secures people's rights" is statist propaganda. They are just saying it as an excuse to claim the right to tax you for these "services". No doubt the "consent of the governed" is manufactured, what with all the government schooling, etc. Government should not impose themselves on me to protect my rights if I don't want to use their "services." I don't see why government (managing company) shouldn't be allowed to be replaced peacefully for any reason (probably cost), just like one would replace their ISP. A country/society should probably have multiple competing managing companies that "protect rights", laws should not be subject to the whims of these organizations but to derivation by logic and reason (probably in courts/academia). Laws should be self-evident to anyone that can follow their proof. I realize that this isn't the current status quo, but I am not obligated to profess what everyone else decided I should. I am accusing you guys of going about things in a provably wrong way.

      What would be your point regarding physical/non-physical product creation? My understanding is, everything is created by your mind. Your brain creates a plan of action and executes it with your hands, which might result in a useful physical good. Intellectual good (information) might take more effort to create due to the larger scale, but the process is pretty much the same. I know that Ayn Rand made a big deal about product of the mind vs hands, but I just don't see it. I would argue that not all creation leads to prosperity. Only productivity-increasing things lead to prosperity.
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