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  • 18
    Posted by 25n56il4 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    Okay people. If I must 'justify' anything I post, I'm leaving. I sometimes get very upset with what I see and hear and I admit I do lose my temper. I apologize to anyone I have offended. But, I'm going to say this. George Floyd was no angel. He didn't deserve all the recognition he got and I am 100% right about him and for that I do not apologize . People who praised him are nuts! By the way, his family may have been in Houston but he was raised right here in this town and benefitted greatly from being given a home by a very lovely, intelligent, well educated, lady who was a law professor. Unfortunately he fell into drugs and ruined his life.
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    • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      I'm with you...

      Just prior to retiring, I went on an email rant (to a small group at work) over what I thought was favoritism for school teachers, in Washington state. Apparently, if I take early retirement (as a radio tech), I can't go back to work until I turn 65, or risk losing my pension. However, if a teacher takes early retirement, they are wholly exempt from that restriction and can work an additional 3 years, with pay.

      I aired my feelings of being a second class employee and shortly thereafter, our group lead called me to chastise me. While his argument that the venue for my rant was probably improper, he justified his comments by remarking on the fact that the spouses of some of my colleagues were school teachers.

      My thought was WTF difference does THAT make? So, somebody might be offended...I was being offended and that doesn't count?

      Anyway, as difficult as it is, we've just got to try to let these things roll off our backs. Like I constantly told my wife, while we were raising our kids "Pick your battles" and "Be the parent".

      Remember that while some may vehemently disagree with you, there are many more who agree and would miss your wisdom on GG.
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    • Posted by $ pixelate 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      I am on the same page regarding GF. As it played out, he was just a tool used to get the fires roaring -- and it sure didn't require much tinder to move things along.
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  • 10
    Posted by mhubb 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    CM
    here is a perfect example of a traitor

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbiEY...

    NY Governor Says Her Rights As Governor Trumps Constitutional Rights To Conceal Carry
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    • Posted by NealS 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      She' has no idea what she is for or against, she's strictly a politician, has a need have the power and to be in control of everything. Perhaps she should set an example, strip her security detail of all their guns. An how can there be a gun pandemic in New York, yet she claims to have the lowest number of gun killings per capita. Who did those shootings, was it licensed permit holders?

      I believe the George Floyd incident was planned as perhaps something just went wrong. I mean look at all the video. And look at all the video of the January 6th "insurrection", it looked as though professional cameramen set it all up and were doing a documentary, and acting was atrocious. Not to change the subject, but back to the set up of Jan 6th again, https://www.bitchute.com/video/DYlb92...
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  • Posted by $ Dobrien 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    If that is a question, I would say you came here to project the false narrative that Patriots are the extremists and a threat to Democracy. You ignore the violence perpetrated by the Marxists , your leader’s policy at the border. That open border policy results in 10’s of thousands of deaths every year from Fentynal as well as the rape of the majority of women trying to get to America.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    I am laughing and shaking my head with your commentary. Yes, one has the right to be happy within their own stupidity, "exist" as you state, but the moment one adversely affects another, causing harm to that persons happiness, well being; imposing financial burdens because the offender doesn't want to create their own value. That is a whole another story...it's more than a simple disagreement.

    Have you not observed Rand constantly calling out usurpers of value, creatures that live off others while assuming rule over them?
    Was she simply disagreeing with them or was she chastising them for imposing their own "irrational self interest" upon others!

    Have you not observed that those assuming rule over us are not like us in the slightest? Having no conscience, no mindfulness (Introspection) and have Never created value in their own lives. Literally sucking the value created out of everything else?

    This goes way beyond a simple disagreement, way beyond live and let live.
    THIS is a Fight for Conscious Human life...only the conscious, fully integrated and introspective can create true value in one's own rational Celf interest. No, I didn't misspell that, Every Cell in the body is responsible for it's own survival, once those needs are met, the value is naturally passed on. Like an invention that makes life better, more enjoyable, safer, healthier.

    The Paradigm is upside down: We The People are the Elite on the Street,..unfortunately, ruled by the Great Unwashed, the Global DELETE, Parasitical Humanoids, usurpers and destroyers of value "in their own self interests"...that is Evil incarnate and you know it.

    Yes, they have the right to exist...in the bottomless pit.
    They are the sorts that try men's souls, this is a fight for survival for they threaten every part of our lives.

    "OUR RIGHT TO EXIST" has been infringed.

    I simply disagree with your entire premise.
    It has been weighed, measured and found wanting...
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    I like the common sense thinking on this site. Even Objectivists disagree at times, but looking closely at more than one side is a learning experience.I recently played an auido of Rand talking about Fascism and consensus from 1964, It is so very relevant at this time in politics! This site deeps up returning to the words of Rand, and remembering what we had learned but put aside.
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  • Posted by 2 months, 3 weeks ago
    When I first read Ayn Rand, the importance of the individual in her philosophy drew me in. At the root of everything is the individual’s right to exist. Rand said, “The right to life is the source of all rights.” She also said, As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.“ Yet, it seems that some members of this forum vehemently object to the very existence of people who disagree with them. I know from experience that as soon as I say that someone will respond demanding that I cite examples. To you I say, review your own posts for those answers. In my time here, the ones who demand such proofs are the ones who can best provide them. Only someone who has made such comments himself has ever asked for proof of those comments. I will not waste my time citing your own comments back to you.

    Nevertheless, there are some specific examples that come to mind as particularly disturbing. “Death to traitors” where the word traitor seems to be defined as “anyone who disagrees with my vision of this country” rather than as someone who has actually been found guilty of betraying this country. Calling for the execution of political figures. Whether it is meant literally or figuratively (and I have been given both justifications, interestingly by the same person in the same conversation), it is incendiary rhetoric to engage in. You may, of course, choose to say whatever you wish, as may I, but you cannot refuse to accept the consequences your words may have. Rand said, “ In a rational ethics, it is causality—not “duty”—that serves as the guiding principle in considering, evaluating and choosing one’s actions, particularly those necessary to achieve a long-range goal. Following this principle, a man does not act without knowing the purpose of his action.” So, assuming that those who are here have at least some understanding of rational thought and objectivism, I must assume that those who spout death wishes for others are doing so with some purpose.

    To come to a site that is supposed to value rational thought and reason and see calls for violent action is disturbing. Rand herself was adamantly opposed to the initiation of force except in self-defense.

    True self-defense.

    You cannot justify your call for the initiation of force by simply saying that someone else did it first.

    You cannot excuse it by saying it’s a figure of speech.

    You have the freedom to do so, of course, but you cannot do so with any honesty and you cannot do so and still claim the title of Objectivist.

    It saddens me to see conversations on here devolve into name calling as happens often. I had hoped that a forum dedicated to rational thought would provide many opportunities for rational discussion. Instead as time goes by, the number of posters continues to dwindle as the posts espousing conspiracy theories and violence grow.

    Either you are an Objectivist or you are not. A is A.

    And so, I will be seeking another forum on which to truly have rational discussions. I hope to see you there if that is what you also wish.

    To those of you with whom I have disagreed, I respect your right to exist. I hope you will respect mine, but even if you do not, I am here.

    To those of you who will try to insult, demean, or demand further answers from me, I simply shrug.
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    • 16
      Posted by freedomforall 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      Look in the mirror and check your premises.

      Are you assuming the obvious faults of those you support to those who disagree with the state tyranny that you appear to support?

      Don't allow the lies, that the state media constantly broadcasts, create prejudices that interfere with your rational thought.

      “The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.” - Ayn Rand

      “The man who refuses to judge, who neither agrees nor disagrees, who declares that there are no absolutes and believes that he escapes responsibility, is the man responsible for all the blood that is now spilled in the world. Reality is an absolute, existence is an absolute, a speck of dust is an absolute and so is a human life. Whether you live or die is an absolute. Whether you have a piece of bread or not, is an absolute. Whether you eat your bread or see it vanish into a looter's stomach, is an absolute.

      There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil. The man who is wrong still retains some respect for truth, if only by accepting the responsibility of choice. But the man in the middle is the knave who blanks out the truth in order to pretend that no choice or values exist, who is willing to sit out the course of any battle, willing to cash in on the blood of the innocent or to crawl on his belly to the guilty, who dispenses justice by condemning both the robber and the robbed to jail, who solves conflicts by ordering the thinker and the fool to meet each other halfway. In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromise is the transmitting rubber tube.” - Ayn Rand

      “A government is the most dangerous threat to man's rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims.” - Ayn Rand

      "Make every allowance for errors of knowledge; do not forgive or accept any break of morality.” - Ayn Rand
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      • Posted by mhubb 2 months, 3 weeks ago
        i can only give you a +1
        would be more if i could

        i had started a long post to him, going into the past treason and murder we have seen
        (50,000,000+ innocent unborn murdered for example)
        i deleted it as i am not sure he would understand
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        • -2
          Posted by Tavolino 2 months, 3 weeks ago
          While I agree with all the comments posted, as well as most of what you (mhubb) indicate, to assume that 50M unborn were murdered is a bridge too far on this site. Not that you don't have a right to your opinion or that it's not welcome, but I do think the Objectivists would disagree. A topic for another discussion.
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          • Posted by mhubb 2 months, 3 weeks ago
            50,000,000+ UNBORN CHILDREN WERE MURDER IN THE UNITED STATES

            murdered by abortion
            almost ALL were elective

            per the US Constitution, there is a Right to Life, 5th Amendment
            an unborn Child is ALIVE
            it feels pain (after a certain point)
            it has its own DNA


            get a damn clue
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    • 10
      Posted by freedomforall 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      "Tyranny is any political system (whether absolute monarchy or fascism or communism) that does not recognize individual rights (which necessarily include property rights). The overthrow of a political system by force is justified only when it is directed against tyranny: it is an act of self-defense against those who rule by force. For example, the American Revolution." - Ayn Rand

      "Ask yourself why totalitarian dictatorships find it necessary to pour money and effort into propaganda for their own helpless, chained, gagged slaves, who have no means of protest or defense. The answer is that even the humblest peasant or the lowest savage would rise in blind rebellion, were he to realize that he is being immolated, not to some incomprehensible noble purpose, but to plain, naked human evil." - Ayn Rand
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    • Posted by mccannon01 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      Except in illustration or obvious humorous sarcasm I can go along with you on direct personal insults and name calling. However, on the “or demand further answers from me” part I take exception. If you or anyone else on this board makes a statement the author should be responsible and able to back it up or explain it or back down from the position. Using Ayn Rand’s words to circumvent that responsibility is disgusting at best. You want us to believe you are an Objectivist. No real Objectivist would do that, IMHO.
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    • Posted by $ Abaco 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      This place has gotten a little rougher. So, I appreciate this post. That said...I've seen other Objectivist boards get MUCH more offensive. Everybody struggles with their own philosophy. So, some patience is required in a forum like this. I recently had a nice ignore stint when comments toward me seemed like petty sniping - not adding to the discussion nor constituting an argument to evaluate. So be it. Everybody has a bad day....That's something I've been saying a lot lately with the shit I'm seeing...Haha!
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    • Posted by TheRealBill 2 months, 2 weeks ago
      "You cannot justify your call for the initiation of force by simply saying that someone else did it first."

      If someone initiates force against you, you can not initiate it in return. Because the force initiation has already happened. In that case you are responding to force with force - not initiating it.

      This applies to "calls" for it as well. Indeed, the shift to "calls" rather than action is a slippery one because while force initiation is pretty clear, one man's "call for force" is another's basic expression of thought. Think that sounds crazy? "Silence is violence" is out there. Cries of someone talking somewhere with a different viewpoint is routinely referred to as violence. "Misgendering" by not capitulating to someone's narcissistic insistence on artificial "pronouns" is routinely proclaimed to be violence.

      Now I would, and do, argue against each of those. But that doesn't detract from the fact that by shifting from actual initiation of force to generic 'calls' for it you go from solid ground to shaky ground at best. Further, consider the executioner fulfilling a death sentence. They are initiating force against someone specifically due to the condemned initiating force on others, and this is an act that Rand, and Objectivism, does consider moral. More stringent rules or barriers to expressing it than in perpetrating it are non-sensical. Thus, at a minimum, all that is "allowed" in the case of actual physical force are allowed in literary or verbal expression. But more on that later.

      Now as to figure of speech, you're incorrect on that. Objectively so.
      "That comedian was killing on stage last night"
      "You're killin' me Smalls"
      "Break a leg!" - a whole different meaning based purely on context. Say it to a performer and it is a figure of speech wishing them well. Say to a skateboarder and it could be you're wanting them to actually break a leg. Say it to a fighter and you're calling for physical harm on someone else.
      "You're comparing apples and oranges"

      A categorical rejection of "figure of speech" is absurd and demonstrates either an unwillingness to think beyond the literal surface, or a lack of capacity for it. Such a categorical rejection is not worthy of someone who envisions themselves as an Objectivist. After all, it is exceedingly rare that someone is literally objecting to someone comparing apples to oranges, and nearly always it is used to assert someone is attempting to compare incomparably different things in an unreasonable manner.

      But "Apples and oranges" or "you're comparing apples and oranges" is more concise and, as a figure of speech, easily understood. Speaking of apples and oranges ...

      Rand defined it as physical force, not words. Therefore your tirade about "calls for violent action" is both incorrect in the sense of Rand's discussion on physical force initiation, and another broad categorical rejection.

      The broad categorical rejection is demonstrative of a lack of understanding the importance of context. As my examples of figures of speech above demonstrate, context matters. In many cases it is what matters most. It was a"figure of speech" for Rand to write "There are only the Rights of Man — rights possessed by every individual man and by all men as individuals." (The Virtue of Selfishness) and not be claiming that women lack these rights.

      As you apparently refuse to discuss specific cases in their context, your broad categorical rejection of context - including figures of speech - is a rejection of Objectivist practice.

      As Rand herself wrote: "The difference between an exchange of ideas and an exchange of blows is self-evident. The line of demarcation between freedom of speech and freedom of action is established by the ban on the initiation of physical force." - Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, Ayn Rand.

      Notice the phrase she used was "initiation of physical force." Nor was this a one-time usage. In concluding I offer the following to go with the above emphasis (it is but a few examples - not an exhaustive list):

      "A right cannot be violated except by physical force. One man cannot deprive another of his life, nor enslave him, nor forbid him to pursue his happiness, except by using force against him. Whenever a man is made to act without his own free, personal, individual, voluntary consent — his right has been violated.

      "Therefore, we can draw a clear-cut division between the rights of one man and those of another. It is an objective division — not subject to differences of opinion, nor to majority decision, nor to the arbitrary decree of society. No man has the right to initiate the use of physical force against another man." - Textbook of Americanism.

      "A crime is a violation of the rights of other men by force (or fraud). It is only the initiation of physical force against others--i.e., the recourse to violence--that can be classified as a crime in a free society (as distinguished from a civil wrong). Ideas, in a free society, are not a crime--and neither can they serve as the justification of a crime." - The Anti-Industrial Revolution.

      Whether you like it or not, someone wishing you dead is expressing an idea, not an initiation of physical force. Even claiming someone should kill you is an expression, not an act. And before you go saying that someone reading that and doing it makes it real, you must concede that they acted of their own free will and as an objective standard bears the sole responsibility for their act. You'd have to, at best, prove they were coerced into doing it by the author in order to objectively tie them together in guilt.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 2 months, 2 weeks ago
        Maybe I missed it but what of the response to an imminent threat of physical force, ie, intending to kill you, injure you, rob you? You are the victim of intended bodily harm or physical force to separate you from you're hard earned creation of value...and...is it not the same thing when it comes to planned physical harm via a vaccine, medicine, poison food,air,water etc, perhaps to reduce the population or just to rid you and others like you because you threaten their power over you, threaten their ill gotten gains, stolen from you're creation of value?

        Agreed that context is important along with proof of such intents, imminent or long term intents.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      If you came to this forum as a place to talk about Rand, there is none better IMHO. That being said, to expect everyone here to upvote you for every comment you make is to misunderstand the voting system entirely. Votes are marks of value (+1) or of contradiction to value (-1). You are certainly welcome to cite your opinions, but understand that you are encouraged to cite principles and examples - especially from acknowledged philosophers like Rand - which comport with Reality. Statements which support or encourage viewpoints which have a history of disagreeing with Reality will get downvoted.

      To address several of your concerns, please consider the following.

      "I know from experience that as soon as I say that someone will respond demanding that I cite examples."

      That is the standard of everyone here in the Gulch. Speculation and hypothesis may be interesting, but not valuable. The expectation is to take that hypothesis to the next level and do something. Invent something. Flesh out your ideas by seeing if they comport with someone else's. Anyone can dream. (Leftists are prodigious at it.) We're interested in that dream's intersection with Reality.
      I should also mention that I'm a State Debate Judge. The simplest way to win points in a debate is to call out statements an opponent made but failed to support with a source. An unsupported argument is a failed argument.

      “Death to traitors” where the word traitor seems to be defined as “anyone who disagrees with my vision of this country” rather than as someone who has actually been found guilty of betraying this country."

      I ask you to consider this in terms of whether or not those very politicians hold views antithetical to those of "Liberty Justice for all." Remember that every national politician swears an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. If by their actions they forswear that allegiance, they are de facto guilty of treason. I agree with you that the formality of such a proclamation should be present prior to sentence being carried out and that hyperbole should be constrained until such a verdict is rendered.

      "To come to a site that is supposed to value rational thought and reason and see calls for violent action is disturbing. Rand herself was adamantly opposed to the initiation of force except in self-defense. True self-defense. You cannot justify your call for the initiation of force by simply saying that someone else did it first."

      Here I will point out that the entirety of self-defense relies upon the other party being the first to infringe upon one's rights. As soon as one acknowledges that first offense, however, the response then becomes de facto self-defense. One can argue the relative extent of the retaliation and its appropriateness, but one can not do that without acknowledging the original breach and its consequences.
      As a second note, I would similarly point out that where such breaches are initiated by public actors (such as politicians) and have the effect to stifle creativity, one must similarly recognize that any such are anathema and most heinous to those who above all other things value the products of the mind. In very fact, to appear to justify such public breaches on this board is to call into question one's own Objectivist bona fides in a most direct manner.

      "And so, I will be seeking another forum on which to truly have rational discussions."

      If you wish to leave, that is your choice. But to imply or accuse those of us on this forum of not being rational is to expose the weakness in your own arguments' inability to stand up to questioning. In concordance with the Laws of Scientific Inquiry, ideas do not become theories until tested and re-tested against Reality. One should not shy away from such critique, but revel in the fact that it indicates a thorough vetting by intelligent minds eager to seek out the truth independent of agenda.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      CM, as someone who has thrown out some harsh rhetoric, like 10,000 Patriots, or a Benevolent DICTATOR to RULE over the rulers...

      I am not sure if you are including me or not. But allow me to comment... My posts were SUPPOSED to be thought provoking. A few steps BEYOND "the proverbial line"...

      While it might be UNFAIR(maybe even "wrong") to kill a politician and eliminate his downline DNA and his spouse (those who benefited, for sure) for his wrong doing...

      I love the back and forth. And one reason to plant these seeds is simple...
      WHEN (and not IF) we get the chance to redo a constitution, it should be spelled out that for the same reasons that "Internal Affairs" exists to keep Cops honest... Something like that is needed, with punishments SO EXTREME as to "Scare Straight" any person who seeks power/office.

      You can disagree. But human nature is what it is. There should be MASSIVE punishment for ALL of the crimes committed by our government Overlords and the Fauci types who LIED (and somehow redact their emails. So, we can see TRUMPS documents (an ex president), but we cannot see if Fauci was committing Fraud on the America People covering up the LAB origins of the Virus, and seeking to have people punished for bringing it up). And it deeply saddens me... That one set of protestors die in jail, and another set caused BILLIONS in damages, caused at least 5 deaths, broke SERIOUS laws, strong armed stores for donations to avoid getting looted... And we only here about Jan 6! Nobody looking into those other crimes.

      I choose to be hear, to keep a pulse on the MORE REASONABLE Crowd.
      I know what the crazy people think. It's everywhere.
      at least here... We get memes, and FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Sometimes the kind that challenges us.

      I've learned more about the efficiency differences between EVs and ICEs here than ALL other sources combined! Crazy! (And I still say we are 100yrs away from going to all EVs, and that's if we start install nuclear, and upgrading our grid). Good luck!

      Regardless... A thought provoking post!
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 2 months, 3 weeks ago
        One point, Captin, Although "Humans-presumably, Conscious ones" can get caught up in the "power" thing; when referring to nature, I think it more accurate to use the term: Humanoids, to describe offenders of liberty, morals and ethics, for to offend, steal, connive and lie is in fact, Their nature.

        Just to be a little bit more precise...wink wink, nudge nudge.
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    • -1
      Posted by CircuitGuy 2 months, 3 weeks ago
      I agree with all of this. Here are few thoughts related to your points.

      “She also said, As to his neighbors, his rights impose no obligations on them except of a negative kind: to abstain from violating his rights.”
      We do this with a nation-state with a monopoly on force, constitutional limitations, and democratic elections. I think, however, the very idea of a nation-state is becoming unnecessary. The word nation comes from the word native, but liberal democracy and respect for individual rights is an idea. I do not know future political structures should look like.

      There was someone here with screen name ewv who said no political structure can maintain liberty if the population does not have a philosophy of liberty. I’ve come to believe that. I think Americans do have a strong philosophy of liberty compared to other places and times, but it’s far from the beacon of liberty I wish it were.

      “Death to traitors” where the word traitor seems to be defined as “anyone who disagrees with my vision of this country”
      We might expect his rhetoric if there had been a catastrophe, like a war with a vicious enemy that we’re at risk of losing. But at this time we’re having great prosperity. I think the motivation for the insanity is not disagreement. I think it’s a result of all the features of the new media, which give us more choice of content, which bring the NYT and conspiracy nonsense to the same screen, and which discourage people from getting together in real life. Not getting together in real life, causes loneliness, which causes people to bond around nonsense. I got this last idea from Senator Ben Sasse’s book Them, which goes into great detail.

      “devolve into name calling”
      My thought is the stupid name-calling has always been with us, but it didn’t get published, so you only heard if you spent time with children or childish people. I don’t know why they’re attracted to the works of Ayn Rand.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 2 months, 3 weeks ago
        They have no legal right to "Act on their vision of this country".
        The vision of the country is spelled out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution; and no one seems to be following the law, the vision, the dream.

        Put it to a vote of the states, they won't and haven't because they know, it's a no go.

        We the people have been called stupid names, those of us that want liberty.
        We call it as we observe it, we'd have a discussion but they won't participate in kind.

        It's not a simple as you think and I am sure Rand would agree...I like her "Name calling" better, it was more accurate and to the point.
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 3 weeks ago
          "The vision of the country is spelled out in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution; and no one seems to be following the law, the vision, the dream.
          Put it to a vote of the states, they won't and haven't because they know, it's a no go."

          It it the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution? Are you saying people would not vote for them today?
          I used to think those were the framework specifically designed not to be put to a vote. But now I think if most people don't believe in them, it can never work because a piece of paper isn't powerful enough to make people stay within certain limits.
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      • Posted by mhubb 2 months, 3 weeks ago
        what do you call the murder of 50,000,000+ unborn children?

        what do you call a bio-weapon attack from China, help by those in the United States that wanted Trump out of office BY ANY MEANS, including the murder of millions world-wide???

        we have been in a Cold Civil War since at least 1968

        go get a copy of Ann Coulters book:: Treason
        it was written before she lost her grip and supported Romney (the traitor)
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