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For Discussion: Q: How To Cut Costs and Improve Medical Care. A: Symptom amelioration drugs should never be given patent protection and should never be paid by insurance or government.

Posted by freedomforall 2 weeks, 5 days ago to Ask the Gulch
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Big Pharma gets most profits for drugs (paid for by government and insurance) that deal with symptoms. The industry appears to avoid cures at all costs (possibly because profits are lower.)

How to change the rules to encourage Big Pharma and the Medical Care Industry To Provide Cures, Not Just Treat Symptoms?

Symptom amelioration drugs should never be given patent protection and should never be paid by insurance or government. Only treatments that are proven cures (without side effects) should have patent protection and increased profit incentives.

That might force pharma to find cures to get big profits, and would put the lowered costs of symptom treatment directly on the patient.

Any other ideas?


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  • Posted by mhubb 2 weeks, 5 days ago
    people need to take MORE responsibility for their own care and costs
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    • Posted by $ blarman 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      And part of that is a result of the notorious third-party payer problem which exists with our current insurance industry. Patients rarely see the entire cost of their treatments. As a result, there is no feedback mechanism to enjoin self-control of a scarce resource: healthcare. There is also little incentive for people to do little things to keep themselves healthy such as a walk outside for 15 minutes every day, drinking enough water, etc. It's a sad fact that America is a population of the wealthiest yet unhealthiest people on the planet.
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    • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 5 days ago
      Responsibility absolutely. The ideal of health insurance is that we all enter a social contract to create a pool of money so that if an accident or disease happens we accept that anyone will be covered. It is an irresponsible insult to sit on the couch and eat pints of ice cream for years causing cardiovascular disease and then expect everyone who chipped in to the pool to cover that person's quadruple bypass. If you freely choose to smoke cigarettes and cause yourself lung cancer, (sorry John Galt) why the hell should anyone else in your insurance pool pay for your freely made self-destructive choice?
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      • Posted by mccannon01 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Yes, bad living habits can contribute greatly to a wide number of problems, but not everyone who ends up with cardiovascular disease sits on the couch eating ice cream. I'm 70 and never spent a night in the hospital in my life until a few months ago I was caught by surprise and had a quintuple bypass. My heart and valves are in excellent condition, but the plumbing around it started blocking up for some reason and I never knew it until I developed shortness of breath and a few other symptoms over the past year. Yes, I used to smoke cigars, but quit 9 years ago and the doc says my lungs are clear today. I always kept active by pumping iron and roller blading all the way into my 60s. [Side note: I came home one morning (3/4/2013 to be exact) from blading and felt short of breath, figured it was the cigars so I threw away all I had left and never went back]. When I gave up blading about 5 years ago, I signed up at the gym and did resistance and cardio at least 3 or 4 times a week before C-19 hit and made going to the gym nearly impossible. I ate healthy most of the time and was only moderately overweight (I did have more muscle than the usual guy my age and still do so I run a little heavy anyway). So I did a few things wrong, but did a lot more right than most guys and ended up getting a bypass anyway. The 27 year old in the room next to me in recovery and the ex-marine a few rooms over would seem very healthy except, like me, the plumbing stopped up. Sh-t happens. Side note: The docs say I could go another 70 years before needing this again, LOL. I'm working on it - back to the gym as soon as the pecs can take it. Just thought I'd share a piece of my story.
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  • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    The industry definitely needs to be given an incentive to switch from a monthly bottle-filling money machine to a Cure model. It is untold how many diseases are curable when we only focus on symptom treatment, which generates good profit. So many diseases we just can't get a handle on, but then the Government-Pharmaceutical-American Medical Association complex has the whole industry tied up in the symptom treatment paradigm. It's a love triangle that is hard to break.

    Pharma will take a drug molecule which treats some symptoms fairly well, and then move a methyl group on the 4 position of a ring to the 5 position of the ring. Why? New molecule, new patent. Slightly different side-effect profile, efficacy more or less the same. They keep the product pipeline full of "new" drugs so that every two years another drug hits the market. All of that time and money spent could have been spent on truly novel cures or treatments.

    I don't hate Pharma corporations for earning money and offering a valuable service. However they do view human beings as nothing but a pink tube with a wallet to steal. Tablets in, money out. Fill the bottle again. Repeat. Stuff the profits into the next analogue of the same damn drug.

    I suppose regulations and tax structures put in place by Con-gress to encourage innovation and reduce wasteful copies of the same drug might help. But I see Danneger setting his oil wells on fire. (coal mines?) They have the medicines that we need to live. They are basically saying, pay or die. Which is their right in a free system, cruel as it is. I feel like a Democrat saying that we must regulate their business model. I can see Pharma saying "FU, no drugs for you, let's go to India or France or wherever. The government is squeezing us to be better corporate citizens so let's just bug out of here."

    What kind of society are we if we pass laws, or directives haha, that you can't leave? You will produce cures, or you will go to jail. Are we just talking about human greed? Is greed good? Does greed fit into an Objectivist Capitalist model? For sure, if people said, I will do the right thing and the kind thing, instead of the thing that makes me the most profitable, then life would be much better. Share a little. Put your quest for more profits aside and think about your fellow people. But now I sound like a Democrat!!!
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      I ask myself: Should the Pharma Industry have a fiduciary responsibility to the people their drugs affect?
      Doesn't the current patent model encourage inventors to ignore that responsibility to their patients?

      The current model exists because of government protection of big Pharma from the 'greed' of others,
      yet it encourages Big Pharma to place their 'greed' over the health of their patients.
      Again government has created the problem by bad law.

      Here's what Big Pharma does with their political power in the existing model:
      https://www.theepochtimes.com/big-pha...
      Big Pharma Wants to Put an End to Vitamins and Supplements

      This is another example of Big Pharma using government to protect them from competition
      at the expense of the health of their patients.

      The (corrupt) American government is being used by Big Pharma against the People
      that government is supposed to serve.
      CMBurton is correct in this respect:
      Corporations "are not individuals and are not entitled to the same rights as individuals."
      In fact, Big Pharma corporations are being given rights greater than the rights of the
      People that government was created to protect.
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      • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Now I'm pissed. I take vitamins B, C and D. Each one "cured" an ailment, although I need to keep taking them. Now they want to expand their market share into Vitamin C? I have to go to a doctor to get a prescription first. Oh gee. I guess I have to go suck a lemon. It is billed as merely a safety regulation. But it's a foot in the door. Dick Turban Durban and some Repube-ican sponsored the bill. Whenever I hear "bipartisan" I know we're all being screwed.
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    • Posted by CMBurton 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      That’s the problem with any pure philosophy. When you start factoring in the human element, it starts to fall apart. In an ideal world, companies would care enough about the people they employ and their customers to see that what is good for them is good for the company. Curing diseases won’t put you out of business. There will always be more to cure. And it will build your reputation, which is always good for business. But so many people don’t care how their actions effect others. Making a profit off temporary symptom relief is easier and cheaper than actually trying to cure anything. Hence the opioid epidemic we’re living with now. Greed is not good because it serves the greedy person at the expense of others. Even Rand who supported laissez faire capitalism understood that some governmental regulation was necessary to protect us from each other. I can’t remember who said that government who governs least governs best (or the other way around?) but they knew what they were talking about. If we could all be trusted to do what’s right, we wouldn’t need governments at all.

      I think we made a huge mistake when we began to think of corporations as people. They are not individuals and are not entitled to the same rights as individuals. They should not be allowed to contribute financially to candidates for office. Medicine wasn’t always seen as a for-profit system and it shouldn’t be. The ideal of “first do no harm” should be more than aspirational. It should be a standard they are held to.
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      • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Do no harm, absolutely damn right. I had a doctor tell me in a joke that the Hippocratic Oath was hypocritical because what happens in reality is that doctors try to do the least amount of harm instead of No harm.
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  • Posted by $ Ben_C 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    If you want to cut costs and improve medical care put physicians back in charge. Let the MBA administrators deal with building maintenance - NOT medicine. Also, get rid of the layers of insurance and the requirement to submit the "correct" computer code for reimbursement. My friend has an ER company that supplies ER docs for hospitals. Its insane his overhead with rooms full of .data entry people attempting to bill insurance companies correctly. Not a fan of corporate america controlling health care.
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      I agree with your point of view. Getting government and insurance payments out of the way is part of the suggestion above to encourage cures over amelioration drugs.
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      • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Absolutely. My family doctor had a medical practice with 2 other doctors. All he ever wanted was to be a "country housecall" doctor. He was great. Saved my Dad's life a few times. But insurance. Eventually the Unaffordable Careless Act was passed. The result was that he would have to hire more nurses, medical assistants (to weigh you and measure your vitals?) and even more billing secretaries to handle all the new forms and procedures, not to mention more computers. He Shrugged. He sent out a letter to his patients giving them 6 months to find a new doctor. He closed his practice. Thank you, Oblamea. Keep your doctor my ass. I lost mine. Thousands of people lost that great doctor, in the name of Liberal Compassion. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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  • Posted by starguy 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    But if Big Pharma puts out drugs that actually cure diseases, then it's a one-time deal: why would you need to keep taking drugs, if the disease is gone?
    That would adversely affect Big Pharma's rent-seeking business model.
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Government created the 'business model' with patent laws that encourage this activity.
      As usual, government created a problem.
      Removing (or greatly limiting) the patent protection in this area can make that business
      model less profitable and make investing in cures the favorable choice - since it's obvious
      that the industry won't change to be ethical without some encouragement.
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  • Posted by AmericanWoman 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    Odd this question should come up as just had a procedure which I was advised would be different then when the day came..see my Pace Maker stopped working 4 months ago had to get a new generator....nope got there and they were going to replace it entirely....much more costly.....and was told that I would have a light method of putting me out....long story there but then the dude came in and told me he was going to knock me out completely.....more expensive and better for the doctor to do the surgery with me a dead piece of human then a light touch...I argued...said I had it that was before....long story short I got my way...its my old lady its my body my choice...THEN...for infection I use Good RX...don't take but one cheaper med and Medicare coverage is crazy so they went to place the order at the hospital ....pain meds (6) $6.00...antibiotic...(14) $98.95 but they called it into my local Safeway using Good RX...$18.25 or same...STAND UP for YOU they are used to making big bucks off the Government during the pandemic...its your treatment...your life....dern if I wanted a tube stuck down my throat and then to be sore for a week and more just so that they could handle me like a cadaver...I'm fighting back...all those notices about taking this shot or that gets deleted. I believe the "virus" vaccine messed with my body since I had a test to check my pacemaker in February and to find out the next test in May it had stopped working 2 months earlier when the test in February said I had 6 months left....sorry for the ramble..:/
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  • Posted by $ blarman 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    I would propose that a different idea be suggested: that drugs developed in the United States be FORBIDDEN to be sold outside the United States for less than the prices being born by US patients. One of the biggest travesties in the drug development world is that the United States is the ONLY nation doing drug research - primarily because of socialism! And on top of that, these nations demand that the drug companies sell these new products at cut rates to their citizens, forcing the funding of all this R&D onto the backs of US patients. To me, foreign nations should be forced to pony up for access to these drugs.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 2 weeks, 5 days ago
    I fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread. It takes R&D to develop symptom ameliorization drugs, too. If this became the norm, I would shrug from the Gulch.
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    • Posted by mhubb 2 weeks, 5 days ago
      if a cure is possible, that is what should be provided

      if a cure is not possible, then you view has some validity

      if a cure may be possible, then treating symptoms is also valid until such time as a cure is possible

      the goal is that medicine should not just be another form of cosmetics, just keep buying that wrinkle cream....
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 2 weeks, 5 days ago
        Cures to disease are obviously better than symptom relievers. The symptom relievers are keys to unlocking why the condition exists and are a baby step toward a cure.
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    • Posted by Misanthropic-Shrugger 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      I tend to agree with your free market thinking.

      Perhaps there could be economic incentives that would place a priority on curatives?

      Just a thought.
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      • Posted by CMBurton 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Misanthropic-Shrugger I had a similar thought. As long as medicine is treated like any other business and the work is done by private hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, etc., patents are a necessary evil to provide the financial incentive to make the investment to do the research. On the other hand, if research and development are limited to "public" (i.e., government) hospitals, you get into all sorts of other issues (I don't want my taxes being spent on that type of research, etc.).

        I used to work for a government program that penalized cost-cutting measures by taking back any money that was left over at the end of the fiscal year AND deducting that amount from the next year's budget (you didn't spend it this year, so you must not need it next year either). I always thought a better system would have been to leave the budget alone and maybe give a small percentage of any money saved as a bonus for efficiency at the end of the year, providing certain standards of performance were met (thus rewarding meeting high performance standards while saving money). But government is not known for appreciating efficiency.

        Anyway, it would seem like some sort of monetary reward for breakthroughs in research would be a reasonable replacement for patents. You still get money and prestige for results, but the medicines and techniques developed belong in the public domain.

        I don't know. I'm not a doctor or a researcher, but it seems like there has to be a better way.
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  • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    As a Free Market type guy, I don't care if companies offer Medical. Dow Chemical offered a free gym because it was good for the employees!

    But the challenge is in the model. Gov't overall, should be OUT of health care.

    But I have changed my mind a bit...

    I believe ALL EMERGENCY CARE should be free to our citizens! Nobody should need insurance because they had an accident. Stuff Happens. But this DOES NOT COVER LIFESTYLE issues and diseases!

    So, if you are morbidly obese and have a heart-attack. That's on you. And if you need LIFESTYLE Insurance, that should be on you as well. Nobody needed Insurance to stay healthy, until the Food Industry and the Medical Complex fell into Cahoots.

    Lets separate those. Allow the insurance companies to charge whatever they want to insure people for NON EMERGENCY Care (lifestyle). And QUICKLY the free market will come to ALL of the right conclusions. Because you may require someone be in ketosis, if they want your coverage, and they have a specific risk profile.

    Simply letting people understand that their HEALTH has been their LIFESTYLE is 90% of the problem.

    You get in a car accident. Let's fix you up. you need to lose a foot because you are an UNCONTROLLED Type II Diabetic. Well, I hope you have insurance. And if you can't afford insurance, then you have more money to spend on WHOLE FOODS, which typically reverses Type II diabetes, and can prevent needing those future surgeries.

    Show me the incentive... I will show you the result! The current incentive is to allow SICK people to get SICKER and have others pay for it! Imagine where that leads... "Right where we are".

    The savings we would have as a country with a Free Market, LifeStyle driven approach. Which Doctor you going to see... The one who has you on 7 diabetes medicines, or the one who helped you brother lose the weight, and get off of all of his medicines?

    I harp on Diabetes, because it is THE driver in our health care. #1 cause of Blindness in America. #1 Cause of Amputations, and the BIGGEST Cause of Cardiovascular Disease. TOTALLY Caused by our diets! [And the numbers have been there. During WWII when food was not available, cases of Diabetes Dropped significantly... Imagine That!]
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    • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      +1000. This has always been my thought too. Insurance has eroded people's sense of responsibility for their health. Just like welfare erodes the responsibility to work. Right on Captain.
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  • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    One idea, I've mentioned before, is that the American Medical Association needs to be disbanded. The AMA is a labor union for doctors. The AMA lobbies Congress to limit the supply of doctors. Medical schools cannot spontaneously admit more students. They must get permission from Congress. So the supply of new doctors is kept purposely low, to keep the doctor's lifestyles and salaries high. Let medical schools double the number of doctors and the salaries will come down, and healthcare costs will come down. I'm not sure about the quality of healthcare. The AMA does set standards for doctors. Will medical schools keep up standards? I don't know. Are medical schools picking new students based on race and sex instead of intelligence?
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    • Posted by CMBurton 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Aeronca, I never really thought about that, but that kind of makes sense. The American Bar Association sets standards for law schools, but each state sets their own licensure requirements for attorneys (starting with having to graduate from an ABA-approved law school). Individual membership in the ABA is optional and basically only provides discounts on training and resources. Most states now require a standard bar exam that is the same from state to state. So, the national organization sets the standards for the training of lawyers, but each state sets its standards for licensing lawyers, for the practice of law within the state, and for disciplining and disbarring attorneys. Most states have agreements that, if you are licensed in certain states that have similar standards, and you have a minimum amount of experience practicing law (usually 5 years), you can be licensed in another state by being recommended by an attorney who is licensed in that state, passing a background check, and paying a fee.

      I don't see why the AMA couldn't become something similar. Set the standards for medical schools and hospitals, where the training goes on, then let individual states license and monitor the practice of medicine.

      Just a thought.
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      • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        Good idea. Now we must convince the rich medical doctor class to convince Congress to do this and reduce their salaries. It's always the foxes guarding the henhouse. They eat as much as they want.
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    • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      How about getting rid of the whole system of needing to be approved by something like the AMA. A few years of patients deciding for themselves who is a good doctor and who is not will result in better regularion of doctors by far. People will go on facebook or something else and rate the doctors like people rate local businesses on YELP
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      • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        I get it. But where do we draw lines. Before licensing and inspections, the fires among houses were amazing and wiped out blocks.

        We need to learn and move on. Don't get me wrong, a license is NO guarantee of quality.
        And they are CURRENTLY USED to keep competition away.

        But I've been to Alternative Medicine Doctors for a long time, trying different ones. It's very hit or miss.
        But it's my choice. I think YELP like systems would help. More doable in todays world.

        Worse... BTW... Look at what they are doing to the FLCC (Pierre Kory, etc) doctors who have it CORRECT!
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        • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 3 days ago
          As life becomes more complicated , its harder for regular people to pick practitioners of medicine, and drug companies making the drugs. Hence the call for the FDA, AMA, etc. BUT- government isnt the way for this to go in that what starts out honest quickly becomes bureaucratic and beholden to political interests. Competion among "watchdogs" is what we need so that what they say meets the light of day and they have to be careful. The courts also seem to do a better job than the FDA in the end.
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          • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 3 days ago
            +1,000
            yes, Competition among the players.
            And the court issue is why children are getting the jab. So the Drug Companies don't have liability!
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            • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 3 days ago
              I dont like that drug companies could hide things they know are bad, and the courts seem to deal with those perhaps too much. In the end, its the fact that hospitals and even people would no longer keep those companies in business.

              As an aside, hospitals are picky about using materials they feel are unsafe or dont have some sort of watchdog approval. If the FDA were closed up, other free market watchdogs would spring up because hospitals would require in short order that someone knowledgeable tested and approved the items.

              With electrical approvals, there is UL and ETL in competition. When I was making electrically powered items for hospitals, they required one or the other approval. UL was arrogant and bureaucratic, so we went with ETL. FDA would have competition right away I think if they didnt have monopoly power.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    Patents and prescription requirements should not exist at all in a free market.

    And corporations should have only the same rights and responsibilities as any other form of business organization. There should be no legal double standard.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    The solution is to get to a free market.

    The ONLY way to do that is to REQUIRE that payments come from the patient/buyer. ALL Insurance $ to patient, ALL decisions from patient, ALL payments from patient. NO insurance network deals. Insurance pays same, regardless of patient choice...even is no service is selected. Want to set your own broken bone, or skip other service, fine. Pocket the money. NOTHING free. People seeing and paying the actual costs can make their own decisions, and will drive the market.

    If the idiots in government do anything, they should just provide information to the patients to aid in decision making, statistics and market pricing.

    For medications, my solution is simple: New law "You can sell you meds for whatever you want, but the price in the US MUST be less than 10% higher than the lowest price ANYWHERE else, period." We will no longer subsidize the world. You can give medication away, but you can not sell it less than 90% the price in the US. This is market intrusion, but it is nationalistic, and destroys an abuse. END of ISSUE.

    These two, drive all the cost out of the medical industry. It is not even complicated.
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    • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Get rid of the FDA for a starter. Let anyone buy whatever they want. Social media could do a better job than the FDA. Let the free market determine the best drugs.
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      • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
        I wouldn't get rid of it. The whole existence of the FDA was brought about in 1906, or 1911? when kids were being poisoned to death by cough syrup containing sulfanilamide. The FDA has saved lives. The whole overbearing regulatory system was worth it I think, in the 1980s when the Tylenol batch at Bayer corp was poisoned with cyanide. 7 people died, but because of the system, and the CEO of Bayer, only 7 people died. They were able to alert the public and reclaim every tainted bottle. And, people still take Tylenol made by Bayer. That is phenomenal. The FDA is not all bad. But it is filled with revolving door corruption. It isn't protecting us anymore it's protecting Pharma. Let's just hose the bums out and refill it. How? I dunno.
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        • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 4 days ago
          The problem with the FDA is the first letter- Federal. Government doesnt do ANYTHING well, mainly because it is based on bureaucratic powers, not self correcting free market power. Bureaucratic power tends to be self serving to the bureaucracy itself, and has no elements of competition to correct mistakes.

          I used to be in the medical device business, but got OUT of it because of the FDA. It was a tremendous bureaucracy in 1990 and required that no one could sell anything unless it got approval from the FDA in advance. This so increased the cost of new product introductions that the only people who could afford to do a new product were the BIG companies (maybe thats why they all supported increased regulation).The only real supporter of the consumer IS competion, and government forbids competion in its regulation schemes.
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 3 days ago
      I agree, of course, that the one getting the treatment should feel the feedback "pain" of
      making payments to limit unnecessary or excessive treatments. That is ultimately the
      primary problem with the existing failed system and a failure of all insurance plans,
      regardless of who pays, private for-profit companies or government.

      The patient is the first judge of the quality of the treatment and in this system the patient's
      dissatisfaction is rarely, if ever, allowed to interrupt the constant flow of funds that pay for poor treatment.
      (The spice must flow! ;^)
      This system gives a false sense of security to patients that someone with expertise is monitoring
      quality of care. That function is essentially lacking and that allows the profit motive to override
      quality of care as the system is currently structured.

      My goal in posting this is to uncover a first step that is relatively easy to understand and has
      some chance of being implemented without an armed revolution.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 2 weeks, 3 days ago
        I do think my prescription medication suggestion could pass, impeded only by big pharma lobbying. It is so simple, and arguing against it doesn't pass the newspaper test.

        Forcing insurance through the patient can't happen because the idiot progressives want to relieve all responsibility from people, and the disgusting RINOs are in the pockets of insurance, big pharma and the AMA (communist totalitarian organization protecting doctor's salaries).
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        • Posted by 2 weeks, 3 days ago
          Yes, I agree. Just my opinion on reality of our corrupt system:

          -Big Pharma, Big Medcare, Big Insurance, AND the Bureaucracy will oppose it.
          -The left will oppose it because it meddles with Obamacare which works so well for the poor. Horrors!
          -They will claim that complete overhaul of the payment system is very complex, not simple.
          -The media will make it seem like it's worse than giving heroin to newborn babies. Let uninformed patients decide about drugs? Half of them have below average IQ!
          QED: No chance in the world this comes out of con-gress with anything to help. Pharma and Insurance will find a way to make it an expansion of Obamacare that creates additional agencies controlled by them.

          Of course, anything we suggest that affects profits for Big Pharma, Big Medcare, and Big Insurance will have many of the same issues.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      it's funny, I heard that EVERY 3rd party payer system INVITES FRAUD.
      And it makes sense. If you are paying the doctor directly... Exactly where would the fraud come from?
      (Maybe the doctor watering down the drugs, but that is self defeating, unless an insurance company always sends you more!)
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  • Posted by lrshultis 2 weeks, 2 days ago
    What do you consider a cure? Some examples please so that I can know whethert you consider whether the five life saving drugs that I take to be alive for a while yet but leave me with the same underlying disease are considered a cure of some kind. As far as I know there are very few drug curable diseases other than bacterial infections curable with antibiotics.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 2 weeks, 3 days ago
    Well, as long as there is no fraud involved, why shouldn't there be a patent protection? People who get patents do have to pay for them, don't they? But they shouldn't be allowed to claim the drug cures if in fact it doesn't.
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 3 days ago
      The patent law protection, a government created privilege, as written encourages research into symptom amelioration
      and discourages research into cures that actually improve health. This is not the free market, it is created by government.
      Government should not exist that effectively causes harm to the people it serves.
      Therefore, if patent law can be changed to serve the people better instead of enrishing a few at the peoples' expense,
      then should it be changed to do so?
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  • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 4 days ago
    Good ideas, but what happens if you have a disease that has no current cure, but has terrible symptoms that a person doesnt want to endure. I suppose the person could just pay for the reduction of the symptoms on his own.

    Example might be diabetes type 2. No cure, but the companies making the symptom reducers would now get a lot of more lucrative business from the patients than they do now from the insurance companies. Therefore, there would just be less research on cures than there is now.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Type 2 Diabetes has LOTS of Cures. Mostly not eating sugar/carbs. It's a form of carbohydrate poisoning, and insulin resistance.

      Even the ADA website now says that a low carbohydrate diet can be used to treat T2D.

      There is a cure. Dr. Jason Fung (The Fasting Method), gets over 80% of T2D off all their medicine in under 1 year.

      The problem is... Who profits from FASTING or EATING LESS or EATING LESS Processed Food?
      Nobody! So it is under-represented as a cure.

      In fact, Dr. Fung explains that he preferred an Atkins type diet, but his patients were on Government Assistance and Could not afford to eat quality whole foods that much. So... Fasting came up, and it turns out it works! Then you eat less, but only eat low-carb. And it's amazing how fast T2D starts becoming controlled.

      Dr. Bernstein did it for himself, and I believe he is a T1D, who uses low carb to control his glucose levels!
      https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Bernsteins-...

      Almost ALL Progressive Diseases are LIFESTYLE Diseases!
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      • Posted by 2 weeks, 3 days ago
        đź‘Ť And none of the 'cures' are profitable for Big Pharma or for the existing system that delivers poor, expensive medical "care."
        There is a complete lack of "Care" in the system.
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      • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 3 days ago
        T1D used to be fatal in that people had to eat so little to keep their blood sugar under control that they starved, as least thats what I understand.

        As to T2D, i think that fasting would bring down blood sugar, but its not a practical solution for people who want to stay alive... I cut carbs to about 50 grams a day (quite difficult actually), but am having a lot of trouble keeping blood sugars down. I think that there must be some genetic element to this disease also.
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 3 days ago
          Okay, Fasting for T2D is the SINGLE BEST approach if you have excess body fat.

          The trick is to be BELOW 20g of carbs per day, and to only eat TWICE in the day. No snacking, no diet drinks. Do that for 2 weeks.

          Then suddenly, fasting becomes an option.

          It's simple chemistry. We are such food addicts. Myself included. The best thing to do is to measure ketones and glucose. Also, fatty liver can take 72hrs of fasting to get rid of the excess fat. But OLD Crystalized Glycogen can take a long time for your body to break down. A history of Yo-Yo dieting with your weight makes it harder.

          The first Resource is Dr. Ken Berry on YouTube, and then Dr. Boz The Keto Continuum.
          She put her mom's cancer into remission! When you start realizing that most of our diseases all stem
          from our poor diets, it blows you mind.

          Fasting is easy. It's the NOT EATING part that is hard! (Because we eat out of boredom, Connection,
          addiction, and numerous other reasons). Remember when you were a kid, playing outside and it was dinner time, but you didn't want to come in and eat because you were having fun? Eating was a disruption to your fun.

          Nowadays, eating is the ONE pleasure we can count on (for many of us). That's SAD, and the foods are made hyper-palatable (why can't you eat just one?)...

          Anyways. if you have excess body fat. Get into Ketosis. Then learn to stretch the window of time before you eat. Either by having an earlier and earlier dinner, or a later and later breakfast.

          It took my brother 4 weeks of simply moving his breakfast 15 minutes later once he got comfortable with it being moved. In the first week he moved it once. Then twice, then three times. Then it was basically 30 minutes before lunch.

          Good Luck. I can tell you that eating MULTIPLE times/day creates MULTIPLE insulin releases and stalls weight loss. I can eat MORE FOOD in one sitting than in 3, and lose weight, versus gain or stay the same. It took a lot of research and testing on myself to get there.

          But if I needed to only eat 3 meals a week because of food shortages... I am good. I can do that without feeling like I am being tortured.

          finally, Dr. Fung taught us... If you don't feel right while you are fasting, break your fast! I have broken my fast because of not feeling right tons of times. I'd rather try and fail than to not try! 7 days is my longest fast, and 3 months was my longest stretch of eating only 3 days a week!

          If you are consuming diet sodas... it can block you from getting into ketosis, and makes fasting almost impossible for me...
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          • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 3 days ago
            Very good info. Doctors usually only want to prescribe pills, since its easier I suppose. When I got more control over T2D, I was eating basically one meal a day of low carb (double avocado chicken salad at pollo loco), and broccoli for dinner. Made huge difference, at the expense of finding that I really didnt WANT to eat at all- kind of took the fun out of eating.

            I will be more experimentive using some of the things you talk about. Thanks
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    • Posted by Aeronca 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Not a good example, Type II is largely curable by diet and exercise. No one is looking for cures for the most part. There are is some progress in injecting cells grown to produce insulin into a human pancreas and it looks promising. But what I'm saying is beside your point.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 2 weeks, 3 days ago
        Totally agree. Type 2 diabetes is almost always a self-inflicted condition, like lung cancer from smoking, both onset and treatment. There is a genetic factor, but that just increases conditions for onset. I know of zero Type 2 people who are, (not were) athletes. No, golf does NOT count. There is a cure: stop eating potato chips and pasta all day, and go do something.

        My wife is type 1, and it irks me that the two afflictions even share a name.

        Now, type 1 cures are discussed. I actually know someone who was cured by accident, and they are studying her. As FFA says, the cure might erode margins too much, so it is behind artificial pancrease/full auto pumps (and insulin, and test strips and injection site kits, and and and...)
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 3 days ago
          Interesting. Part of the problem is in diagnoses. Some Type IIs are actually Type Is or 1.5s as some people call them (Radically Deficient, but not 0 Insulin Levels). And sometimes they go low carb, and REGAIN a bit more insulin function.

          A Hungarian Doctor (Sofia Clemens) has a PKD Diet for treating (really zero carb), and very high in fat.
          But she has a working theory that the Modern Milk Proteins are so distorted they are too similar to islet cells, and that milk is behind what causes the auto-immune attack on the islet cells. Interesting Theory.

          Are you familiar with Dr. Bernstein?
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          • Posted by $ blarman 2 weeks, 3 days ago
            My daughter and father-in-law are solid Type I (my pa-in-law for 50+ years and my daughter for almost 20 now) and I know several other people who are Type II. Those "1.5's" you say are those who start with Type II and refuse to do anything about it, so they migrate from Type II to Type I as their bodies shut down. But the cause is still radically different. Type I is an autoimmune disorder: the body's own defenses attack and destroy insulin-producing cells in the pancreas. Type II is an eating disorder where the pancreas is literally worked to death. The end result may be similar between Type I and end-stage Type II, but in all other facets they are completely different.

            I, too, wish that they were called distinctly different names. In fact most people don't know the difference. After my daughter was diagnosed (at 2 years old BTW), we had some extremely ignorant people ask we couldn't just adjust her diet. After about the fourth or fifth time I gave up trying to explain as most of them were only interested in giving unwanted advice and not in actually learning anything.


            It is an interesting theory. The problem is that insulin doesn't target fats but carbohydrates, allowing them to pass through a cell membrane into the cell to be utilized in metabolism. I'm not really sure how fat proteins would cause an auto-immune disorder. A fat is basically a huge lipid chain with an OH on one end. The body can metabolize these chains either in whole or in part by chopping them down. Proteins are the working engines of the body: unless those fats were getting broken down into proteins and the subsequent folding of those proteins was causing a problem... Eh. I'm not seeing it initially, but if you want to post a link to the paper I'll take a look.
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            • Posted by CaptainKirk 2 weeks, 3 days ago
              Quickly, no link I processed the info 4 years ago.

              But it was the MUTLATED Milk Proteins from processing that triggered the immune response.

              Dr. Bernstein has led the way in Type I reducing insulin to the bare minimums with carbohydrate restriction. They are now FASTING Type I's who have been over medicating at their doctors request and are showing Type II signs of insulin resistance! Amazing stuff.

              Your family is lucky you Grok the science...
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              • Posted by $ blarman 2 weeks, 3 days ago
                I'm still waiting for Islet Replacement Therapy to complete its trials. It wouldn't necessarily nullify the autoimmune response that caused the problem, but it could restore some natural functionality to the pancreas.

                If you see an update on her studies, please post. I am interested!
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    • Posted by 2 weeks, 4 days ago
      Why no cure? Was research funneled into treating the symptoms because it is where the $ is because of patent laws?
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      • Posted by term2 2 weeks, 3 days ago
        Business wants to make money, I get it. It might just be that if people want cures, they are going to have to pay for them some other way than the insurance/pharma connection.

        I remember years ago that I couldnt get a knee replacement that I needed UNTIL I got my HbA1C under 7. Needless to say, I found a way and got the knee replacement. It wasnt the way the family doc suggested. I just ate one real meal a day at lunchtime which was extremely low carb (boring somewhat), and ate only broccoli for dinner for months, and I checked blood sugar at least twice a day so I could estimate what my HbA1C was going to be without waiting 3 months for the test.
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