Government looting and the effectiveness of shrugging

Posted by LionelHutz 11 years, 1 month ago to Economics
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In the days of old, our government funded itself by taxing the people through various means, but most prominently by the Income Tax.
As the government becomes the primary looter, the means of revolt expressed in Atlas Shrugged makes a lot of sense.
One deprives the government of their loot by depriving them of your production.
(They can't tax what you don't make).

However, I think we have been in a new era for a while now.
We are in an era where the government doesn't need your tax money.

Think about this. We already know Social Security and Medicare are going to go broke. We've known it for years.
So what sane politician says lets expand the program (Medicare D), and then cut the revenue stream funding it (employee portion of social security)? Both actions drive the programs deeper into debt.

How are things even staying afloat?
The answer is the government is now writing IOUs, selling them to the Chinese for face value, and telling them they may collect it with interest in the future...from our unborn children.
THIS IS TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION.

The following data comes from the back page of the 1040 instruction book for the past decade or so:

Percentage of Income derived from Income Taxes and Borrowing.
(Note that while the 1040 data separates income taxes from social security and medicare taxes, I lump them together in this table).

Year Taxes Borrowing
1999 82% 0%
2000 82% 0%
2001 85% 0%
2002 78% 8%
2003 70% 17%
2004 67% 18%
2005 70% 13%
2006 71% 9%
2007 75% 6%
2008 69% 15%
2009 51% 40%
2010 51% 37%
2011 53% 36%

The govt of the USA hasn't been known for compelling people to work in order to keep their income stream coming in.
Shrug all you want. The govt will simply sell more IOUs to the Chinese to make up for it.
At some point in time, the Chinese are going to come to collect on those IOUs.
Is it unreasonable to think that your children may be put into a labor camp?

Agree? Disagree? How does one fight against this?


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  • Posted by marjacks 11 years, 1 month ago
    Guess what? China is not buying the dollar. The Federal Reserve is the largest buyer of the dollar now. The days of the Chinese floating our economy was over a year ago, right under your nose.... So think about it, when the creditor is both lending you the worthless paper and then buying the debt, the gig is up.
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    • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
      The Federal Reserve is buying the debt with an unsecured loan on your Dollar saving. They are levying their hidden tax, that no one talks about by devaluing the dollar. That decreases the real value of the debt when they can pay old debt with devalued dollars. The problem is that our children will not be paying off their debt but our debt. Rather than use free markets to grow our economy the greedy Looters are destroying it. Their greed is boundless, taxing and levying the only engine that can save them. Fools. They are eating their chickens, slaughtering their milk cows and defecating in their own water supply. This is what happens when generations are not taught free market economics in school and are deprived of logic. I choose the Gulch.
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    • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
      Thank you for your comment. You raise a very valid point!

      For those wanting substantiation:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...

      The Wiki summarizes this situation thusly:
      As of July 2012, $5.3 trillion or approximately 48% of the debt held by the public was owned by foreign investors, the largest of which were China and Japan at just over $1.1 trillion each.

      So, if they've got 48%, I imagine about another 40% of it is of the "money the USA owes itself" variety.

      This amounts to saying "well, we know we can't get the money out of THIS generation. We're just going to stack up debt until we raise a dumber generation that will tolerate a > 50% tax rate". Or, more likely, they just keep printing the money and hope everyone is too dumb to notice they're living under hyperinflation.

      The answer isn't to shrug. It's to earn as much as you can and convert those federal reserve notes to precious metals!
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  • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
    Order manufacturing equipment from China at today's prices and pay with tomorrow's devalued dollars. Can you say 10, 20, year notes. We use the equipment to manufacture our own equipment and sell it to China on 3 year notes. Pay them back with their own money.
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  • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
    It is absolute taxation without representation. They are selling us into economic slavery to satisfy their greed.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
      Ooooh "economic slavery", I like it! (Just the phrasing...not the thing itself, of course.) I'm going to use it (and not pay you) lol. Thanks :)
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      • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
        I don't think it was mine to start with. I probably owe royalties to someone if the copyright hasn't run out. It's probably as old as indentured servitude.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
          Maybe so....:) "They are selling us into economic slavery..." I'm putting it in the fav line of the day. I may give myself an assignment for tomorrow....to say "We're being sold into economic slavery!" at least 3 times. Do you think my kindergartners will dig it? lol
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          • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
            Probably enough to repeat it to their parents who will be appropriately shocked. Why not tattoo their SS number (Slave ID) on their little foreheads. China needs to keep track of their human inventory. Do you think they will have to eat rice with sticks?
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
              LOL! (Not funny...yet hilarious when I read it?) "On their little foreheads"....(I just snorted). I'd hate to see them even TRY to eat anything with sticks...a spork is bad enough.
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              • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
                It will never happen anyway. China is a slave state that is already in collapse as a result of their foolish investments. Central planning works no better there than here. Free market capitalism is the norm, the default, everything else is burdened with the tax of administration and coercion. In the end free market capitalism only has to out last the Tyrants, Looters and Fools.
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                • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
                  But will it, Capitalism, outlast the tyrants, fools and looters when it seems there's so few of us left who care or understand what capitalism is and that it's not "evil"??
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                  • Posted by net5000 11 years, 1 month ago
                    I actually have come to believe that capitalism and free markets are the default the humanity has relied upon. Think back in history about trade and village markets. Even trade between villages or tribes. Revisionist historians may have taught us their lies but use your logic. "Regulation is just another word for corruption.
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                    • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
                      I agree. The Soviet Union has always had a 'free market.' Do you know what it was called? The "Black Market". Also, vodka was used as a form of currency for certain items when the ruble was on it's way to becoming worthless in the late '80's. The point is it doesn't matter how militant or tyrannical a gov't gets, "free" or "black" market will ALWAYS exist. They can't stop humanity, which is what the Left really wants to control.
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                    • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
                      ....yes, from starting over from scratch village markets and trade will always begin again....because they are hungry and NEED to make money to eat and feed their family. When you take hunger, or even the possibility of it, out of any possible equation in someone's mind (such as today in this country...NOBODY is worried about hunger), then capitalism is doomed to failure. THAT is the connection.
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  • Posted by sherwolf 11 years, 1 month ago
    The legislative, judicial and executive branches, Republicans and Democrats only seem to care about their own self importance. Maybe not all, but the majority. They care about votes, being liked, being re-elected and spending lots of "other peoples money."
    They are disrespectful of the people who elected them and those people are too disillusioned to realize it. Those who are given everything have nothing, they have no pride or self-respect; they have no dignity or individuality. That is why they hate and blame. They have become slaves to those they elected to give them everything. They can't stand the reality of their own choices.
    Being the one to divide other people's money between the masses is not a noble, Robin Hood-like role.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
    Thanks everyone for your interesting replies.
    I want to address the replies in one shot.

    1. Not shrugging won't get the job done, therefore shrugging will (or might).
    In other words, if A doesn't work, the opposite of A will work.
    Sorry, it's not that simple. Tell me why it will. Because I argued with data that it won't.
    The main point of what I wrote hasn't been addressed.
    The govt is financing over 1/3 of the budget on IOUs right now.
    If 20% of the country shrugged, what is stopping them from making it 2/3 in response?

    2. Overt slavery is an improvement on the current situation because rebellion is easier.
    Really? You'd rather be living Red Dawn? You think that's preferable?
    Assuming we repulse the invaders (who are just trying to collect a debt, remember),
    why do you think this means the system is going to be remade in a better manner in the aftermath?

    3. When the system crashes, there won't be anything for the creditors to take.
    Labor camps, remember? They're taking labor from you (or your children).
    They're putting you to work in their iPad factories and paying you your daily bag of rice.

    4. Move to Texas
    We're talking about the federal government here.
    How does moving to Texas change what you're giving to the Fed?

    5. Move to Chile
    Please see:
    http://www.heritage.org/index/country/ch...
    http://www.taxrates.cc/html/chile-tax-ra...
    Solitus - the tax situation there doesn't look like an improvement to me, but overall I have to respect a country that's "only" spending 23.3% of GDP, as I'm writing from a country that's managing to do about 40% right now.
    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_2...
    What are they spending it on, though?
    Wikipedia:
    About 3.8 million people (22% of the population) are (as of November 2011) on government welfare programs, via the "Social Protection Card", which includes the population living in poverty and those at a risk of falling into poverty.
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  • Posted by buybuydandavis 11 years, 1 month ago
    Get your assets out of dollars. And Tbills.

    Wait for the devaluation/default. The funny thing is we've already defaulted on dollars, which were promises to pay an amount of gold.

    Soon we'll be defaulting on promises (tbills) to give people promises we've already defaulted on (dollars).

    It's strange that the world can really run like this.
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  • Posted by captainkirk_19 11 years, 1 month ago
    ther's only one thing you can do when someone has won @ monopoly, all you can do is put it back in the box. The Government is corrupt, we know this, there is only one thing to do, put it back in the box. we all know the answer to shutting down the motor of the system, stop contributing, shrugg and walk away and say im leaving it the way i found it, good luck. you'll survive, they wont know what to do they wont be able to make because they only know how to take. so everyone stop beating around the bush, and do it all ready, stop the whining, and the lack of action, stop the motor allready. go to work and just sit there until your fired, then file for unemployment, and food stamps and welfare and social security and social security disability even if you know you dont qualify do it anyways because they will still have to process the paperwork it will not only stop the motor of their system it will sieze up so fast it catches fire! Then they will have no chioce but to stop and allow the Makers and Doers to restructure, rebuild, reorginize, because thats all they know how to do anyways is let someone else do it all for them, they just have to know they are not actually in control of it anymore, you have to make the system shrug.
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  • Posted by Solitus 11 years, 1 month ago
    And what will the Chines collect? Abandoned homes, dirty cities, lazy undereducated slobs. Yeh, I'd collect on that pile of dung. Sovereign monetary process is not the same as kitchen table budgeting. Why? Because we can't print it.
    John Galt or Cloward-Piven gets the same result - the collapse of the cultural philosophies that got us in the pile of dung we sit in now.
    We do not have the possibility of unlimited growth, or unlimited resources; therefore Ayn's point of reference, as to human capability, is outdated.
    The answer? Get a sailboat and leave the US. Like me. I like Chile, a country where the students hold rallies to get their teachers to work more hours. And they have most of the lithium on this planet.
    And thanks for buying my blueberries.
    C'ya losers.
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    • Posted by $ brewer37 11 years, 1 month ago
      The point you are mistaken about is that we DO have the possibility for unlimited growth. Just as the universe is infinitely large and infinitely small the limit on wealth creation does not exist. We can always grow the pie.
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
        exactly, brewer
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        • -5
          Posted by Solitus 11 years, 1 month ago
          Not "exactly". There are ~7B people on this spinning blob of mud, and the natural resources, living a "Western" lifestyle, for ~4B consumers. So unlimited birthing is global suicide.

          We do have the brainpower for unlimited wealth creation. Unfortunately, from the meandering comments about spiders, merlot and whatnot, the typical user on this board does not have the discipline to accomplish it.

          I met your heroine in 1973 at MIT. As this disgustingly greasy, fat, hairy old woman signed my copy of The Fountainhead, she blew smoke in my face. I was satisfied when she passed away destitute.

          Objectivism is the philosophy of having it both ways. Don't tax my rewards, but make sure I get an educated workforce. And those roads better be fixed so the employees can get to my workplace.

          You get the government you vote for, and since you only vote for people like you - well there you go. The politicians are just like you, doing what you tell them to do. Objectivism is not the answer, responsibility is the answer.

          You are the answer. Take responsibility for something meaningful, like going to local government meetings. Sunshine via public oversight will make the rats you elected more circumspect in their handling of your affairs.

          And this whole thread was premised on the false statement wishing for "the old days" of government income. "In the days of old, our government funded itself by taxing the people through various means, but most prominently by the Income Tax. " No, until 1913 the feds were mostly funded by tariffs.
          Then the politicians you elected subcontracted the cash supply. If you hire someone to print money, what did you think they would do to keep busy?

          And we do not live on a sailboat. We traveled on mine so my teenagers could see a bigger world. Like Moses and 40 years in the desert, I took a long time getting here to break my kids of their provincial US mindset of entitlement.

          It's shipping season and this Objectivism junk keeps crowding up my inbox. The spam filter seems to think you're important.

          I don't.


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          • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
            I took the time to read the opprobrious presumption you volunteered earlier today and after giving your most acerbic opinion some serious thought, decided to retort several of your points with such fastidiousness forethought that it absolutely leaves you with unequivocal impression that maybe, you ought to seriously reevaluate your verbal ruckus prior to contributing to the Gulch again.

            But, before this verbal and deeply intellectual banter begins, I'm curious to know if you have the testicular fortitude to freely admit that you are nothing less than a troll. I'm willing to bet you'll deny such a denunciation.

            Point #1, your "unlimited birthing is global suicide" remark is indicative of the contemporary latitudinarian-leaning neurotic that's infected the current Demunist (Democrat + Communist) party as it stands today. If in fact you were truly of a conservative character, you would not have written such a boorish estimation.

            Point #2, I recommend you offer your vapid unintellectual services to NASA (Not Another Saudi Arabian, formally known as National Aeronautical and Space Administration). I heard they are looking for a new power source to fly the next generation shuttle into orbit and I believe your ignorance is just the power source they are looking for, perhaps you have insight on how to convert your ignorance into power? I'm beyond sanguine that MOST people in GG most certainly possess the mental discipline required to create wealth. Just because conversations veer off-topic does not mean you can exuviate them because they didn't meet your criterion for on-line forums.

            In other words, if you don't like it, get lost, grow up and go bother someone else. Got it?

            Point #3, this was a bit tough in my approach. When one considers your entire message, it appears you are bitter. Bitterness is a common trait among the progressives and honestly, that's too bad for you. I'll bet you missed out on a lot in life due to your bitterness, but I digress...
            In any case, I don't believe Ms. Rand would have blown smoke in anyone's face UNLESS that person said something incredibly beyond half-baked and short-sighted. What did you leave out in not telling us?

            Point #4, it appears you do not understand Objectivism. Can you offer specific examples that prove your imbecilic promulgation?

            Point #5, there is no point #5.

            Point #6, We in fact, unfortunately, all too often DO NOT get the government we vote for. There are way too many issues in today's voting process and the machines that are used which contribute to this. Other than President Reagan, most people voted with who they got stuck with, thanks to the imbeciles of the GOP who NEVER wanted RR in the first place. It's no wonder why the GOP is where they are at today: they REJECT conservatism. When people have to choose between full-on Liberalism and Liberal-Lite, they most often will vote for the Real Thing, thus, the Repubs will continue to lose.

            Objectivism is certainly the answer compared to Liberalism. It goes hand-in-hand with responsibility, which, Liberals never have been and never will be. But, depending on whom you mention, some sham GOPers.

            I would like to go on, but my better half is calling on my attention. But I will close on this: NO ONE in GG has a mindset of entitlement. You are definitely on the wrong forum.
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            • Posted by Solitus 11 years, 1 month ago
              Your long missive is in the tradition of Balph Eubanks writing to Ellis Wyatt, thank you for the time. It was not wasted on the others.

              It won't change the reality. You are there, I am here, who is changing the motor?

              P.S. I am a Progressive. Like Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon and Abraham Lincoln (Progressive Republicans), the future must be built by those who take a risk. (TR - safe food and national parks; RN - OSHA and the EPA; AL - well, he's been covered ad nauseum)
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              • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
                I am not convinced; you put up many insults to the GG community in your initial post and now it appears you're trying to backpeddle. I'm not surprised at all of your 'progressive' claim.
                I would comment on your progressive examples, but not in this post...a totally different subject deserves it own post, since it most likely will draw extended conversations.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 1 month ago
            Crap! I think you're on the wrong post....or site for that matter. You're verbally crapping on the wrong people, but by all means, please sail away....you obnoxious ...fff....sailor!!
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          • Posted by 11 years, 1 month ago
            I take issue with you saying this thread was premised on a false statement. Of course you're right about the tariffs, but in context I clearly wasn't going back to the founding of the country when I was speaking of the old days. I was trying to raise the point that in Rand's day, the Govt was funding itself through income tax and how Galting would hypothetically work then.

            Don't tax my rewards, but make sure I get an educated workforce and good roads? So one necessarily leads to the other? There's no way to get these things without the tax? This is a bunch of garbage. Just because the govt collects taxes and manages to get work done with it does not mean that was the only way the work was going to get done, that the work is any good or cost effectively done, and most importantly that it was RIGHT for the government to do it in the first place.

            I could do without the meandering comments too. One can downvote the occasional one, of course, but when they overwhelm the body of thread replies it gets pretty silly.
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            • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
              conversation meanders. friends are made in here, and this is how they communicate. I appreciate your opinion, but some producers will engage in the moment and off topic. we're not writing thesis' in the Gulch, for the most part. take what you find annoying with the overabundance of useful. my two cents
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  • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
    At some point, numbers become meaningless. When we see people voting for Ovomit 5 or 6 times over, do you really believe that these people are concerned about tens of trillions of dollars in debt? To them, they're like 'What's a trillion? Oh well, I guess that's a big number...not my problem, hey, where's my free stuff?...'

    So the question is, if we really can't 'shrug' then where do we move to? The whole world is turning into one giant toilet bowl, thanks to the commies around the world and to the softy repubs like Senator McLame in AZ.
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      • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
        DK, OK? It's in the middle of tornado alley, and also, just like Texas, frequently get Texas-sized hail that come down to give your car nice dimples ~ don't think I'll go there. Wyoming, yeah, I did that for 6 years...I'm not going to go back, too high and dry. Yes, beautiful and NO state income tax, but not for me. Montana's nice, but no jobs for me there. Idaho? Doesn't the Left's sugardaddy, George Soros live there? I know it's very beautiful there, but I don't think there's much in the way of employment is there? Utah? Nope, if you're not Mormon, you're a nobody, no thanks. I totally concur with NM and Colorado. Did you ever want to go back and see what 1967 looks like? (culturally that is), then head on up to Boulder, where 1967 will never die! Hold on, I'm gagging...ok.
        Damn. Texas huh? IDK yet. I'll wait and see for now.
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        • Posted by khalling 11 years, 1 month ago
          I thought Soros was hanging out in Brazil sucking up all that oil development money the US govt sent down there. having been in Idaho recently for a couple of weeks, I would say that it mostly is very conservative (with the exception of Sun Valley area). It seems to be doing well economically. commodities and extraction industries. there is alot of rural, back woods, off the beaten track places there and those citizens are VERY private. Here was my beef-cell towers. There aren't enough of them and so communication is limited in most of the state. that's my opinion on that.
          Colorado is completely destroyed. and really downhill since the mid 90s. do not go there. and NM? that state boils my blood everytime I go through there. one emerald city, and the rest of the state languishes. it reminds me of a fiefdom. Albuquerque thrives off of all crony businesses and govt stuff. and some of the most insane environmental/forest service regulatory BS I have ever seen anywhere except for CA
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          • Posted by UncommonSense 11 years, 1 month ago
            The only thing that's good about Albuquerque is Rudy's BBQ. It wouldn't suprise me about Soros being in Brazil for a while. About 5 years ago, he invested nearly a billion dollars in one of their companies, who specialize in REALLY deep oil drilling.

            Remember the pathetic cover story the Left told the Americans the reason why the EPA is shutting down oil production in the Gulf? Because it's "too deep"? Well, sure, 5,000 feet down is deep, but it's pretty damn shallow when you compare it to Brazil's 17,000 feet just to reach the bottom to start drilling. Now, what was that about not drilling in the Gulf because it's "too deep"? Come again?
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