Juvenile Justice

Posted by Herb7734 1 month, 1 week ago to Government
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Our whole juvenile justice system is crazy. Look, I realize that the current issues confronting Biden are at the forefront, but the Juvenile system has been screwed up as long as Biden has been in Washington and even before.The system is crazy not only here in Florida but everywhere. There just is no such thing as juvenile crime anymore; at whatever age it's just plain simple crime -- we all know everyday we see murders committed by kids -- 14, 15, 16, 17 or younger. sometimes much younger.Two 12 year olds in Chicago threw a kid of 5 from a high rise.In England, two 10 year old boys killed a 2 year old. It's the same with robberies,assaults, rapes, car-jackings, you name it.Yet the law enforcers , handcuffed by the ridiculous, archaic system that should have been thrown out years ago. What I'm suggesting is that juvenile records shouldn't be sealed at all. Every crime should go on record and stay there, and be available to investigators.If the ACLU doesn't like it, in Trump Terms, "Screw It!" If you break the law, it goes on your record.That's among the prices you pay for breaking the law.


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  • Posted by NealS 1 month, 1 week ago
    I have to somewhat disagree, and not just from emotion, but from experience. One of my son's committed what could have been a serious crime, he shot a car of harassers that had been bothering him when he was 14. No one was hurt but the rear window was blown out and it missed all four young occupants. Because we sat in the back of the court room with tears running down our faces, the judge mentioned to the prosecutor that he has parents that care, and he went juvenile. Had he gone adult who knows what he'd be like today. Today my son is adamant about criminals, even traffic infractions, and has turned out to make his parents even prouder than his brother that never got in trouble, probably just never got caught. Anyway as it turned out the juvenile system puts some of the pain on the parents, in WA State the parents pay for a juvenile's incarceration, halfway houses, etc, based on your income. It basically cost us what it would have cost to put him through college. I look at it, as a juvenile he chose incarceration over college. It was a learning lesson. The four kids that drove by him four times yelling obscenities weren't even brought up in court. The judge had no information as to why he did it. And he had stolen the gun from a sister in law "to protect himself" from these guys. Keep an eye on your kids, get involved with everything they do, know where they are going and what they are up too, 24/7. Don't trust them to make adult decisions by themselves like you did when you were young. In reality, you are responsible, not them. You guide what they learn. Think about yourself, what you got away with, that maybe changed you. Adults, need to be permanently held accountable for their decisions, not children that are basically born without a brain. Murder is completely different story. Perhaps murder should equal execution, period. Just my two cents worth.
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      It has been said by neuro--scientists that the human brain is not fully mature until age 25. Should we protect these persons until then? Hopefully, your son turned out OK. If not, and he continued to act on impulse, we might be talking a different story. How do you know? As illustrated by you, that's why we have judges. But I think that if you were to look at the records, you'd see that you're son was the exception and not the rule when it came to serious crime. As you pointed out, had one of those bullets killed one of those kids, you would have written a much different post.
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      • Posted by NealS 1 month, 1 week ago
        That's for sure, that was the scariest part of the whole ideal, other than having to drive into the mountain in the snow to visit him in a caged youth facility for just shy of two years. Thank God, he is an upstanding good citizen today, just turned 40 last year. Funny thing too, it was his mother that called 911 when she spotted him at a shopping area after we had just found out what he was suspected of.
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        • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
          Your wife is a tough lady.
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          • Posted by NealS 1 month, 1 week ago
            Actually she loves her son (as I do). It was in his best interest, she actually wanted him locked up to protect him. Even though the system saved his life and he came out okay they still let him down. They actually talked him into not finishing his last year of high school. He had like one class to take and he blew it off. But he's the best automotive detailer a large used car dealership has in a little podunk town now. Even the salesmen have their cars detailed by him on weekends.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 1 month, 1 week ago
      This is going to be a massive grey area for a long time. The transition from childhood, where parents should be responsible, to adulthood, when the person should be responsible is not a day. It is a decade. This, coupled with the general lack of accountability many seek today is going to be a mess.

      Sounds like you succeeded with your boy. Good for you, him and the rest of us!
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
      "Don't trust them to make adult decisions by themselves like you did when you were young."
      I respect and mostly agree with your comments. I think the goal should be for them to make adult decisions as we did when we were young. This new idea of delaying growing up is a bad thing. I think it makes young adults look for an external authority in their lives rather than being that authority. This could contribute to support for socialism and authoritarianism.

      So I completely agree that parents should not encourage a 14 y/o to assert all the rights and responsibilities of an adult, BUT the goal is to get them there soon. It's bad if they get to their 20s and are still scared to make their own decisions.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 1 month, 1 week ago
    Read "How Meadow Died". This is precisely how the Parkland Shooter was allowed and perhaps incentivized to avoid support/mental health incarceration, and kill a bunch of kids.
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      That's true. And, there are many, many more examples. So.....why are we still doing the same thing over and over when it doesn't work? Ask Einstein. He said it was insanity.
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  • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 month, 1 week ago
    Interesting Take. I always reference the Star Trek where there was no crime. But they had one punishment: Execution for everything, including walking on the grass with a posted sign...

    It's extreme, but ZERO Recidivism.

    On the other hand, kids are kids. A Smoke bomb thrown across the street to watch the effect, lands on a car, slides into the engine compartment and torches a new car. In the blink of an eye. A bad decision changes a life.

    But the real problem is WHY have laws, WHY have punishment?

    Again, the LIBERALS ruined everything (And Republicans HELPED). The PUNISHMENT is NOT supposed to FIT the crime, it is supposed to DETER someone. Take the IRS Punishment for not reporting taxes. It's not REPAYMENT of the missing Taxes. It's TAXES + PENALTIES + FEES, the latter two OUTSTRIP the Taxes by a measure you cannot fathom, and they can FREEZE your bank accounts while you decide, and take your home, cars, etc.

    But other crimes... No such deterrant. Because they would rather have the taxable income.

    But also, Liberals made the argument: The penalty should fit the crime. NO. WRONG! It should deter.
    Try not paying back the Mob, tell me if it FITS, or DETERS the next person.

    BTW, the 2 kids who killed that 2yr old. I am good with MAKING THEIR PARENTS Throw them from a building to their deaths. Because WTF did those parents TEACH those kids? But I "Tend" to be a bit extreme with punishments. I like DETERRANTS! Good Old Public Hangings. But society ONLY works if we AGREE to be SOCIAL.

    As the LEFT will soon find out...
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      Your solution is pretty biblical, but I don't think you'll get very far with it. In today's world, children hold a kind of sanctified place when it comes to crime. "They didn't know what they were doing." which may be true in some cases. But there was more truth than fiction in the play, "The Bad Seed."
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 1 month, 1 week ago
    They f up kids. Then cover up the sh*t that results from it. Almost looks like it's on purpose....hmmm?
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      In some cases it actually is. There are quite a few cases in which the parents or guardians are complicit,. often training the kids in robbery and mugging so they can bring home the loot. People such as that should be strung up by their naughty bits.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
    I agree with treating teenagers as adults, in terms of responsibilities and rights. That means they should have the right to get job, live their own lives, vote, etc. Families should work with their kids to guide them to take these rights and responsibilities. It should be a step function at age 18. From a very young age, they should be in the process of becoming citizens, we the people, adults, the final authority in their own lives.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 1 month, 1 week ago
      Treating children as adults is certainly not the right approach. Clearing records to begin anew at 18 yrs old, is a mistake. Perhaps clearing records from birth to 18 yrs when one reaches 25 yrs, and hasn't had a relapse.
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      • Posted by NealS 1 month, 1 week ago
        I like your idea of clearing Birth to 18 at 25. My son's record was 14-16, then after some time (?) his record was to be sealed. Sealing it alone does not cut it for qualifying for many otherwise opportunities. I believe even the military won't take a "sealed record" as a recruit. And for sure I would have loved to get him in the military, it's one of the greatest educational experiences of a lifetime, and especially if you experience combat. I think the military is afraid someone with a sealed record just might be too good at their job. My feeling are of course very prejudiced on this, I am an old combat veteran of Viet Nam, and now I think about it everyday.
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        • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
          Getting juvenile information unsealed is a whole big deal. Causes lots of paperwork and approval by a judge and after doing the paperwork there's no guarantee that the judge will approve it unless he owes the cop putting in the papers a favor.Nothing is as simple as it looks.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 1 month, 1 week ago
          It seems simple, provides the same value to the individual, and protects society from this new wave of young problem children.

          Surprised the military wouldn't take such a person. Seems unfair to regular businesses, who would have no such option, and a lot less tools to control the wayward youth.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
        Above I meant to write it should not be a step function at age 18.
        I think we have a huge problem of treating young adults as children.
        I like the idea of clearing record at age 25, BUT I wouldn't want it to transform somehow into the idea that people under 25 are actually children. That trend is already in progress.
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        • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
          The point I was hoping to get to is that there is no age that is a cut-off point. Every crime counts. It reminds me that we could do much better if every senator and representative didn't have to bow to a party. I would make parties illegal. That way, the only ones that congress was responsible to would be the PEOPLE that they represent.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 1 month, 1 week ago
          No, that can’t be the change, and they need to phucking decide if the age is 18 or 21. Adults are adults, not 1/2 adults that can’t drink and buy pistols, but can be drafted.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
            Well, it would be more like 16 IMHO. This is the age when historically people had an urge to break away, follow their own path, get married, etc. The new theory is that the modern world requires school, and "child labor" is a crime.

            I have an unpopular view of this. I think "child labor" is good, and adolescents should be free to follow their dreams, and be responsible for their actions. Some of them would be irresponsible, but we have people over 25 being irresponsible, feeling dependent on parents, and wanting the govt to tell them what to do. I thought those OWS people who said "I did everything I was told and now I'm struggling to pay my debts" were just a few anomalies. That's the norm now for too large a segment of society. I think people should learn at a young age to live for themselves and enjoy the benefits or the negative consequences of what they do. I believe in second chances as NealS describes, but not by means of infantilizing people.
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            • Posted by rhfinle 1 month, 1 week ago
              I'm with you. For thousands of years, until the 1900's we had an apprenticeship system where a kid would learn a trade and be useful to society around age 16 or so. Then comes the public school system and child labor laws that force kids into 'safe' government schools where they can be indoctrinated. The only bright side is, that after a dozen years of it, only about half end up actually believing it.
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            • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
              I considered my boys to be lucky, since as their dad,I was able to employ them at my retail camera shop/studio when they first reached their teens. They were able to see how hard it was to earn a buck. How standing on your feet for 3 to 6 hours and dealing with some people who might get crabby when Kodak didn't get their vacation pics back in time. They learned about checking in merchandise, keeping track of inventory, dealing with customers (ours were mostly nice) .Was I breaking some sort of child labor laws? If I was, then they were not the kind of laws we needed.
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      Perhaps if they knew what was coming in terms of retribution, they would start teaching their kids about consequences at an early age. I imagine visiting them in jail ain't no fun.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
        I think you're saying teaching them about jail is important. That's true, but even more important is teaching the idea of people treating one another honestly and about how value is created when people do work and trade honestly what they have to give others things they want from others. That creates great prosperity, which is the opposite consequence from not respecting others.
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        • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
          The lesson is that every action has conserquences. Karma was taken from the idea that if you put in good it will return good to you. If you put in evil, then you will suffer evil and so will others, usually those you care for.
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          • -1
            Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
            Exactly. "Karma" works both ways. The value created by people making honest trades is so great, it seems magical, but it's actually just the result of human work and ingenuity.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 month, 1 week ago
      I've mentioned it before. My daughter is very bright. So school was WAY too easy for her, she ended up at the University by 15 (passed her SATs before 14)...

      So, I worked her. She read Atlas Shrugged at 12.

      In school, I made her get a JOB, despite her youth, she was tutoring 18..22 year olds!

      She learned to talk to adults, through practice, and through reading a list of everything I read growing up (1980s: The Outsiders - Brave New World)...

      Why... Our job, as parents is to teach our children to SOCIALIZE properly, so that OTHERS WANT to socialize WITH Them. And to ERROR to the side of having ADULTS that want to socialize with them.

      The BEST compliment I got was a boat owner in AUSTRALIA whose boat was named after a character in "Hitchhiker's Guide..." and my daughter (16 at the time) recognized it, had a long conversation with this 60+ year old boat owner. He said "What a wonderful job you are doing. I can't talk to my own grandchildren that well..." It was such a pleasure talking to her, and her breadth of exposure.

      This idea comes from Jordan Peterson, BTW. I did not learn about it until after I executed it. But it turns out, it was MY GIFT as well, growing up, I was very respectful, and could talk to adults. They took an easy interest in me, and I've had HELP every step of the way in my life and career because of it! (My Rude and Obnoxious Brother... Not so much! But he's living life on HIS terms. LOL)
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      • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
        I had two bright boys only 19 months apart. If you were to ask them, each would claim that their brother was the rude miscreant. The competition between them was a wonder to behold. If one collected comic books, the other collected more valuable comic books. If one built LEGO castles the other built LEGO Monuments, etc.One became an engineer specializing in project management the other skipped college and went into business. Both are successful.
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      • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
        Your girl was more than precocious. Unfortunately, she was way above the norm. We've got everyone else's kid in the entire world to deal with. And, most of them, alas, are not anywhere near your daughter. I have had the good fortune (or possibly misfortune) to deal with two boys similar to your daughter. And they just keep coming. My middle grandchild, a girl, could be your daughter's twin, intellectually. Whew! Is she ever tough.
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 month, 1 week ago
          Yeah, unfortunately, again, people learned the WRONG POINT.

          Parents SHOULD NOT RAISE CHILDREN! (This is what they THINK they should do, and they DO).

          Parents are GIVEN Children, to turn into productive adults.

          My daughter wrote me "I wish I could haven given you a father, like you were to me... But I fear, then, that you would have never been that father to me!"
          Precious!

          Look, every piece of clay can be molded into something. Our job is to study/work with the clay. To find a shape it might enjoy, and the courage to try.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
        [Sarcasm]You're a child abuser.[/Sarcasm]
        I bet some people honestly think that, but you did what successful people who want the best for their kids have always done. Once she got a job and started studying to go college early, she was the one doing and work and getting the rewards, which is how it should be.
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 month, 1 week ago
          Someone criticized me... because I used various bribes and rewards.

          For example, I PAID her $5/hr to go through ALL of the Free Microsoft Office Training and take the tests, and show me what she learned in 10 minutes, each day.

          That gave her money over the summer vacation to go do stuff with. Watching her struggle with "I want more money, but I NEED FUN TIME", was quite amusing. And she learned... You will NEVER make ALL THE MONEY.

          But thank you.
          Hint for parents with Younger kids: I had her do 2 minutes of HOME KEY Typing as PAYMENT to use the computer for the day.
          It slowly increased to touch typing for 10 minutes. She hit 80 WPM in 5th grade, because she wanted a Halloween Outfit I thought we Pricey!

          She hated me... And thanked me... :-)

          But thank you! The ART is to not make it painful...
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    • Posted by 1 month, 1 week ago
      Also, the chief reason for not closing the files of juveniles is so that investigating police when hunting down suspects can look up their records. Often, the juvenile crime points the way to the adult crime. If a murderer kills in a certain way, and a juvenile record can be unsealed so that the investigator can see the same characteristics as the crime he is investigating, that will certainly give him a very precious lead.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 1 month, 1 week ago
        "a juvenile record can be unsealed so that the investigator can see the same characteristics as the crime he is investigating"
        Yes. I see no reason to hide this information from legitimate criminal investigations.
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