Continuing Education: Why is Taxation Immoral?

Posted by $ nickursis 4 months, 2 weeks ago to Philosophy
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OK, so we had a deep discussion on how or why politics today reflects (or does not) into Objectivism, and user Tavolino pinted to a web site which has pretty good, simplified discussion on all these topics. Of Interest, is the question of Taxation. Why do they say it is immoral? I mean, to my simple mind, you have to have taxation to support the government, and of course politicians use it as leverage ("the taxpayers paid for.." when trying to get or get rid of something), yet what are any other options? I mean, options that actually could be used, and people would accept. I do know the original government subsisted on tarrifs coming into the country from 1775 until around 1813, when the War of 1812 nearly bankrupted the country. But others say tariffs are bad too. The we site does list some non-offensive options, some of which seem pretty workable, if given whole hog support, and the political system is flushed clean.

Regarding taxation they say: "Taxation is a form of initiation of force, which is immoral, destructive, and unacceptable whether perpetrated by an individual, mafia, or government. Specifically, taxation negates the concept of property rights by claiming that the government has first right to the income or money of its citizens. When every man's work is the property of the state, and he is allowed to keep only what the state feels appropriate, that is Communism which leads to poverty and death. It is the opposite of the view that man has a right to exist for his own sake, that his life is his moral standard. "
I don't argue this, and I think a lot of us here would also agree, I see the problem as "What else is there"?

Their web page:

Their Taxation page:

Their Moral Options page:

The Trust Fund seems a pretty good idea, except it assume a banking system that will pay interest, and the fund gets increases from some activity (loans, interest etc) or else it would seem to dry up pretty fast.

User Fees
Great idea, it is already used in Parks etc, That money goes where? I don't know, but accountability seems the hard point.

I see this as a non starter. I wouldn't donate to the current Empire, simply because I don't trust them. They do not have my interests at heart.

Flat Citizen Fee
Now this I like, if you want the benefits of citizenship, you earn it, you pay for it. Heinlein had a similar idea in Starship Troopers.

How then, do local and states not break this idea up by wanting their own citizenship, or user, or fees of some kind? That would seem a prickly problem too.....

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  • Posted by freedomforall 4 months, 2 weeks ago
    A free market provides the products that customers desire.
    Government steals from customers to increase the power and wealth of government and the customers will take whatever is forced on them.
    Taxation is theft.
    If a product is needed and is not provided by private business, the only way government should be able to provide such a product is through competition by government for the customers scarce resources. If the individual voluntarily gives their resources to pay for a "service" from government, and government provides such service satisfactorily, then the service is one that government can provide. However, private business is likely to provide such a service better and/or more efficiently as soon as it is proven that customers will pay for it voluntarily.
    Even the "justice" system and police services can be provided more efficiently by private business. Clearly education is already done better by private enterprise.
    imo, there is no service or product that government can be trusted to provide.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 months, 2 weeks ago
    In a proper world, taxes would be minimal and only used to provide for a common defense and for local enforcement of self-evident laws.

    "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." - Thomas Paine

    I am not opposed to the new calls for decreases in police forces. The problem is that money is being "reallocated to social programs" rather than never having been confiscated in the first place.

    I am successfully losing weight right now. When is government going to go on a diet? The beast needs to be starved. At this point, it is so big that all taxes need to be opposed on general principle that we are taxed way too much, and the question about the proper means of taxation is esoteric. A combination of flat citizen fees and user fees, depending on the service provided, is appropriate, but let's just cut the size of government.
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    • Posted by $ 4 months, 2 weeks ago
      I agree in opposition to taxes, and the huge size they take, but I do live in the Peoples Republic of Oregon, where taxation is a right of the state. There have been so many out and out lies and cheats in the last couple years, the few Repubs left had to walk out and run so they did not have a quarum to ram a 2 billion dollar greenhouse tax on us. They still managed a billion in "business activity tax", whatever it means. I am with you all the way. The question is really how would an Objectivist formed government even function? I see a fundamental split in the need for money and the need to not tax the individual. I liked the web site ideas, It does push the responsibility back on each individual. Maybe if they made it where you could choose how much based on your perceived value of their services. Right now I see it at near 0.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 months, 2 weeks ago
        It is time to leave Oregon and come to a place where your taxation is minimal like east central Florida. I only pay $3000 per year in property taxes and 6.75% sales tax and no state income tax. That's more than I should have to pay, but the politicians here actually do try to keep confiscation to a minimum.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 4 months, 2 weeks ago
          Correct me if I am wrong but I thought FL RE taxes were raised whenever a sale takes place. If you are moving to FL and buying a property, then your taxes are based on the value today, not the value if you bought 20 years ago. Your house taxes would be much higher to a new buyer would they not, JB?

          I recall when $3,000 would pay for 1/4 of the entire cost of the house, or more recently the entire annual payment for mortgage, insurance, and RE taxes.
          One big problem is that the USD value has been purposely destroyed by the corrupt banking cartel (with government complicity and blessing via the Federal reserve Act) to steal from everyone else.
          Moving to a different US location is equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. In the end we drown and the corrupt float away with our hard-earned assets in reserved seats in the far to few lifeboats.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 months, 2 weeks ago
            Florida property taxes have a homestead exemption. Once you buy the property, the assessed value cannot be raised by more than 3% per year, but might be less than that or even go down. If I paid for my house now, I would pay $5000 in property taxes instead of $3000, but if you commit to living here a long time, you will benefit in the end. That adjustment is meant to encourage retirees, but ultimately the senior population uses the school system less. Thus, I think the homestead exemption is justifiable in that respect.
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            • Posted by freedomforall 4 months, 2 weeks ago
              "if you commit to living here a long time"
              If you commit to living in the same house for a long time. If you moved to Jacksonville (or somewhere else in FL) because FIT opened a lab for you there and you bought a home there would your RE tax be based on current valuation?
              Its interesting that the assumption is that value will always go up more than 3% - thanks to the guaranteed inflation provided by the banking cartel which steals from the elderly in particular and enriches bankers.
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      • Posted by Doug_Huffman 4 months, 2 weeks ago
        With respect. Only actual individuals have rights. Corporate have powers.

        In re responsibility, remember Rickover on ‘Responsibility. It is an unique concept ... “. Hung in my briefing room and I will never forget it.
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