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Freedom and Virtue

Posted by JohnBrown 10 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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Is a high degree of responsibility necessary for the people to live in freedom? Do the people have to be responsible, honest, and hard-working—in a word, virtuous—before they can handle freedom? It can be a chicken-and-egg argument, certainly. Do the people lose their virtue and then lose their liberty? Or, do they gradually lose their liberty and then lose their virtue, in proportion? The cause and effect is important, because it provides a clue about how best to restore freedom. If the former, then the people must be taught virtue again, presumably by the State. But this approach is hopeless and absurd. Or, the people might somehow be drawn again to religion and absorb the moral teachings therein.

To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea.
—James Madison

In any case, if the people lose their virtue and then lose their freedom, there would need to be a moral revival before we could return to freedom. But if the people lose their liberty and then their virtue, the approach is more straightforward: set them free. When people are free to face the full consequences of making poor or immoral choices; when sloth, greed, envy, lying, cheating, stealing, unreliability, and broken promises have real social and economic consequences, they will be induced to become more virtuous. When the State penalizes saving and investment, when it taxes incomes and wealth away, and when it provides unearned benefits for free, it not only discourages positive, productive behavior, it rewards bad character at the same time. It subsidizes bad behavior.

To reward responsibility and penalize irresponsibility, we don't need a moral revival first. Just set everyone free. Let people make mistakes, let them live by their own choices. Let them learn, let them experiment, let them cooperate. Wards of the State are not self-reliant, competent, independent individuals. In freedom, individuals build good character. In freedom, relationships are strengthened; societies become more virtuous. Harry Browne wrote an article on this topic that addresses the issue quite well.



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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Inconsistancy with AS.

    #1. Business
    #2 As a result of #1
    #3 No problem
    #4 No problem except as a result of #1
    #5 Unless in self interest from #1
    #6 Don't understand why one shouldn't avoid the application of other's laws.
    #7 No problem except as a result of #1

    Personally, I get uncomfortable with including the NAP under the heading of Objectivism. AR talked of not using force or coercion instead of your own productivity and as a response to others that attempted to use such against you or your property. But I still contend that pre-emptive action is allowable when it is obvious that some other has the means and intent to start such action. Nor do I necessarily agree that responsive force be strictly limited to some form of equitable force. If you're in a situation where you have to respond with force to get someone to stop or prevent them from using force against yourself, the rules are out the window. If you insist on only equitable force, you've obviously never been in an actual fight initiated by another intent on harming you.

    As it applies to attacking Al Quaida directly and their supporters, Taliban. We were right. As to Iraq, I'll never agree that we had any business there, but once the reality of being there is brought in, then we should have stayed and finished it.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    jbrenner; Why not? The Japanese citizen before surrender living under the edicts and propaganda and enforcement of the ruling elite with authority from their living god, were little better than savages. The biggest problem I see with Afghanistan is that the country has very little in the way of resources from which to internally develop, but education vs. a theocracy and the corruption they live under couldn't help but improve their population's lives. Maybe a stable labor source and ingenuity for manufacturing as Japan accomplished, or as India has done for support services and valuable contributions of intellectual individuals.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I was a teenager when AR was at her peak in the 50's and early 60's. I would not be who I am today if if it wasn't for her writing. For me the NAP is just the objective continuation of objectivism to its logical conclusion. ;)
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Fair enough, but because of your comments, I must answer that for me it has little to do with a 'comfort zone' nor being a 'follower of an ism' nor remaining true to the "one true faith". Who and what I am developed before I discovered Objectivism or AR. But I recognize AR for putting into words and into a complete philosophy and art, what was an essential component of my identity and actions in my life.

    For your adherence to the NAP and the ideas of tolfa, I wish you well in your endeavors.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    NAP is the result of the idea you own yourself. It is not the axiom. When people confuse it as the cause vs the result/effect, now you are short-cutting philosophically.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm sorry, it was in our interest. If we had not done so, we would have ended up with the situation we were in post WWI
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why Saudi over any of the others? They are currently pumping out the jihads. If we had more oil independence...
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I will gladly let the thug societies either stay as thugs or eventually evolve into worthy societies.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    We'll agree to disagree. I wouldn't have rebuilt Germany or Japan either. That was done to satisfy the cronies of various administrations. Nation building is a fruitless effort.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well written to be sure. As far as the questions you ask about the practical aspects of living by the NAP, i.e. ethics, arbitration and dealing with vilent crime, the tolfa course devotes 2 entire chapters to this, so I am obviously not going to answer it all in a few short sentences here.

    I totally grok that you seek a comfort zone and if objectivism gives you that, good for you. For my part I am not a follower of any *ism. I have concluded that my comfort zone is found in adhering to the NAP before all else. This means that I have no choice but to figure out - by my own capacity to reason - how to make that work as opposed to trying to argue it out of the way so I can remain true to the "one true faith". That is who and what I am.
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  • Posted by Solver 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    One can reason that if they placed a single bet on Red, let it ride ten times, and won every time, they would have enough for their entire family.

    One can have faith that if they placed a single bet on Red, let it ride ten times, they would have enough for their entire family.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No from some of his later books.
    The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
    Time Enough For Love.

    One or more of the books where Lazarus Long appeared. It is a good line, and was used more than once.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So, I believe that there were many African slaves who were not enslaved - at least they yearned to be free physically as well as mentally. Unfortunately, much of their progeny today are the opposite.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The lack of a parachute could convert an atheist -- but only briefly.
    I did a parachute jump once. It was fun. Never got around to a 2nd time and now my legs are shot. Don't think I'd like it as a profession, though.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, as Mohammed is reported to have said, one of the hadith's, when asked if a man should tether his camel or trust in God: First, tether your camel, then trust in God.
    A lesson in taking personal responsibility.
    We are creatures of time and space. (Can't wait until someone tries to turn that sentence around!)
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would like to think not.
    As a Native American about to be hanged by the British was supposed to have said:
    Hang me quickly before I say something unworthy of myself.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've always thought that for a schizophrenia with psychic powers Joan of Arc made quite a contribution to history. Mark Twain, that cynic, said Joan of Arc was easily the most extraordinary person the human race has ever produced. And he it was who wrote the essay: Man's Interpretations of the Deity's Intentions.
    Some people have wondered if Joan of Arc was an accident of history. I reply, depends on if you're looking at it from man's perspective or God's perspective.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't be silly. Of course an atheist can be an expert on faith. So can a vegetarian be an expert on beef. A person's philosophy doesn't preclude his ability to learn about anything.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Good understanding and of course, as a free man, you have the right to believe as you determine, you just don't have any right to control or subjugate or expect me to pick you up if your belief fails you.
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