$ jlc (10,317)

Like you, I would prefer a statement by a contemporary of that document that stated in plain words what was meant by 'man/men'. I have spent many pleasant and otherwise educational hours in search of such a document, but have just now found some reasonable sources.

I have found the following statement (history.org) in an analysis of voting procedures in the Colonies from ~1600 to shortly after our independence:

"Typically, white, male property owners twenty-one or older could vote. Some colonists not only accepted these restrictions but also opposed broadening the franchise. Duke University professor Alexander Keyssar wrote in The Right to Vote: The Contested History of Democracy in the United States:

"At its birth, the United States was not a democratic nation—far from it. The very word "democracy" had pejorative overtones, summoning up images of disorder, government by the unfit, even mob rule. In practice, moreover, relatively few of the nation's inhabitants were able to participate in elections: among the excluded were most African Americans, Native Americans, women, men who had not attained their majority, and white males who did not own land.""

John Adams wrote in 1776:

"Depend upon it, Sir, it is dangerous to open so fruitful a source of controversy and altercation as would be opened by attempting to alter the qualifications of voters; there will be no end to it. New claims will arise; women will demand the vote; lads from 12 to 21 will think their rights not enough attended to; and every man who has not a farthing, will demand an equal voice with any other, in all acts of state. It tends to confound and destroy all distinctions, and prostrate all ranks to one common level."

The Declaration and subsequent Constitution obviously did not include women (Adam's wife attempted to get that philosophy inserted, but was apparently laughed at by her husband) or blacks (Jefferson's paragraphs against slavery were removed). Neither women and blacks had right to vote per the Constitution.

Thank you for your 'nudging' me to look One More Time. I hope that you will find my sources to be reasonable.

Jan

We are loosing the Subjunctive as we invent virtual reality. Would this were not so. We will have to reinvent it at a future time.

Jan

Interesting. Like the paleoanthropological difference between hominin (the branch leading to humans) and hominid (also includes our cousins).

Jan

Excellent. Thank you for that insight.

Jan

There is that...

Bravo. I am always learning stuff: Egyptian Hieroglyphics are current source of fascination.

I took a Paleoanthropology course online, and it was great...but I knew more than all but a half dozen of the class (and the teachers). All of the other courses I have investigated seem to be more superficial than that. I can understand the basic stuff on mine own, it is the real details I would like a class for. If I find an online course on the topics that interest me I may go on for additional degrees, but so far no cigar.

Jan

I sometimes muse that I might be able to cause a riot at a medical trade show by the simple expedient of climbing up on our booth table and shouting, "Get Government Out of Health Care!" real loudly.

So far, I have resisted the temptation.

Jan

Spot on, blackswan!

Jan

Alas! I do not even know enough to agree or disagree with you. Obviously, I must learn more.

Jan

The original draft included such anti-slavery phrases as, “cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant [African] people". These were removed because the southern states objected to them and the big purpose of the Declaration was to unite the States against Britian - not to cause divisiveness withing their own ranks.

Jan

I understand the context, BB. Apparently I was not clear. Please read my reply to sdfi, below.

Jan

If we elevate other species to sentience or contact sentient species from other planets, then the definition of "man" as "sentient person" still makes sense.

This is how the word was used in the poem "The Battle of Clontarf": the beings described as 'men' turned out to be entities that were neither male nor human.

Jan

sfdi -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I have read that - in the context of the times - there was an 'understanding' amongst the founding fathers that 'men' meant 'white males'. At the time, the 'male' part was not in contention, but the 'white' element allowed them to sidestep the question of slavery, which was already a subject of contention.

I am deliberately suggesting that, instead of the Emancipation Proclamation and all of our subsequent regs about gender and race, that it would have been cleaner to deliberately redefine the terms used such that 'man/men' = sentient person. Others on this thread have suggested specifying that 'right' != endowment, etc.

I am not oblivious to the context, I am suggesting that (for instance, were I to re-write) the Constitution have a prefix of defined terms would make fewer subsequent laws necessary and fewer abuses possible.

Jan

As pjhorgan points out, amongst the words that need explicit definition are "equality", "freedom", and "rights". While I started this thread to address the definition of "man" and "men" as being "sentient persons" (and this definition making the Emancipation Proclamation and race/gender laws redundant), I like the way this thread is going towards a total set of explicit definitions.

Jan

I knew a musician who was raised in the Church of the Salvation Army. He had a lot to say about their religious conditioning; none of it was good.

I think the Salvation Army is a lot better from the outside than from the inside.

Jan

Wow, Esceptico, that is potent rhetoric. "Carnivorous idols". That sums it up.

Wow again.

Jan, socks knocked off now

"Why does this always happen on a Friday, and usually on a Friday before a holiday? "

Because the universe is secretly inimical. Think about it: black holes, relativity and quantum tunneling? Who thought up this crazy place?

Jan

I went through college on a loan I obtained as a child of a disabled veteran, but while the loan was deferred whilst I was in the USAF, it was not forgiven: I had to start paying on it about 6 months after I got out of the AF.

Jan

I am not sure that this article made sense. I followed some of the links, and looked at the graphs. Why would there be so many "sugar babies" who have nursing degrees when nurses are being snapped up by healthcare industry as soon as they stick their little pink noses out over their nursing credential?

I would like to submit a suggestion that Wm has made me aware of: If you eliminate non-major requirements (eg English Literature, World Gov, etc) and hire extra teachers for the classes that are actually in demand, you enable students to get their 4 year degree in 3 years instead of in 5 or 6.

The problem with this is philosophical on the part of the school: they cannot then rationalize the continued hire of professors who are teaching unwanted courses. So the colleges proclaim that a "Bachelor of Arts" degree indicates an individual with a breadth of education suitable for an upper class Victorian Englishman and require students to take non-essential classes. (OK...the university may not phrase their requirements in just that fashion.)

My point is that even this small a change would decrease the student debt and introduce the idea of competing for the students, many of whom are actually interested in jobs and not Middle English Poetry.

Jan, learned ME on her own

Hmmm. You are correct. Defining 'rights' as 'the ability to perform a deed without legal strictures preventing it' (as opposed to 'endowing it by public funding') would go a long way to resolving a lot of problems.

Jan

I have never read much about the Articles, freedomforall. I guess I should...

Jan, admits ignorance

I used it to clean up dog poo...

Jan

(I hope he kept one floor as his man-cave...I would think that he would need that.)

Jan

Yes. I totally missed your point!

Sensei George Kirby indeed has a first name, and can be found here: http://www.budoshin.com/

He was by profession a High School teacher, now retired; he innovated the first video courses in Jujitsu.

Jan

I read the article bicameralism...now recall it having been mentioned to me back in the 1980's. It would seem that an examination of the cognition amongst modern primitive societies would lead to some data on this theory.

A rapid look at the internet did not give me any such studies. Hmmmm. Thanks for the new topic for me to examine.

Jan