jlc

One is not eliminating 'blacks': One is eliminating 'sickle cell trait'. As long as the family is no longer living in a malaria-prone area, that is a good decision that will lead to a healthier offspring. Why would you want your child to have sickle cell any more than you would want her to have spina bifida?

My apologies for trying to put words in your mouth re abortion parameters. Often, the next question in such a discussion is whether allowing early term abortions requires acceptance of later term abortions as well. I was trying 'not to go there' but apparently had the opposite effect.

Jan
(Liked your MiB quote.)

My answer is: Yes. Everything.

We should allow early-stage abortions if the genome of the fetus has the wrong hair color or lacks musical talent or did not inherit the wings I added to my genome last year. I regard this as a good thing, not a bad thing.

You are correct: The starting place on this slippery slope, however, is simply to eliminate negative characteristics. Do you care if your child has Down's Syndrome? No? Well then, go ahead and have a beautiful and sweet Down's Syndrome child. Do you care if your child has spina bifida? Trisomy 18? If not, then go ahead and have a child who may be born crippled or severely mentally handicapped.

Reproductive choices, like other aspects of the individual, do not (should not) default to the decision of the crowd. If I am 100% white, but I want my child to be 100% African black, and we can introduce those genes into the fetus, then that is my choice - someone else should not be able to make me do this...or prevent it.

So, you ask, where does society's parameters come into play? Right now, society is almost entirely in agreement that a late-term termination of pregnancy, when the fetus would be able to live independently, is not allowed. I agree with that, as I think it is a reasonable rule-of-thumb; I think that 90% of our current society would agree on that. Anything else is the decision of the parents.

Gattica is an entirely different question, as it deals with what you do with the knowledge of someone's statistical genetic nature without regard for their actual accomplishment. Gattica is comparable to pre-judicially not allowing women to take math because women are statistically less math adept than men. This invalidates the actuality of the individual: the most talented person with math that I have ever met is a woman.

Jan

I pointed you up for the first paragraph but then wanted to take it back for the last sentence: I do not equate abortion with execution. If someone wants to go ahead and raise a Down Syndrome child, that is fine, but they should not be forced to do so. That Icelandic moms have made virtually 100% decision to not have trisomy 21 children seems logical to me.

Jan
(I put the points back on because I agreed with 3/4 of your post.)

Well, of course the first thing that one must deal with is that there are genetic differences between people and that these differences do establish limitations on their potential. This was has been well established, beginning with the Minnesota twin study back in 1989; genuine genetic difference is not an acceptable fact to socialism, which wants to think that we are all blank slates upon which society writes.

Other than that, I think that what you propose is 80% wishful thinking. You simply do not want to admit that these terrible people are part of the same population that you and I are. I think that we are and that (1) a random person given a lot of power and few repercussions is likely to become 'evil' and (2) over the spread of humans with more normal amounts of power initially, those who are >3SD in 'ruthlessness' will become more powerful in certain situations, drug rings and politics amongst them.

Jan

I would expect some interference from actual marine life - whales, sharks, etc. I assume that your escape mechanism would also trigger if a real whale approached one of your craft...but I am less certain of what the result would be.

One of the other aspects of this problem - one easier to control is that the source of much of the plastic is from urban storm drains. If there were coarse screens on the storm drains, much of the source of the problem might be removed.

Jan

Heinlein's character, Lazarus Long, is famous in SF, Objectivist and longevity circles. He is an immortal who, during the course of his extended life, has compiled The Notebooks of Lazarus Long, which is published as a separate book (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no....

No collection of witty sayings should be compiled without knowing the existence of this resource, because it is what many of us will instantly think of, especially when the topic of Gulch philosophy memes is introduced. I do not know how you would prefer to handle the fact of their existence. Certainly you don't want to unknowingly quote one of them without addressing the fact that they are taken from a copyrighted book. Do you want to allude to them? Get permission from the Heinlein estate to include your favorites? This is up to you.

Just FYI, they are fun to read.

Jan

The entries would be copyrighted by the Heinlein estate, so you would have to get their permiso to include them, but many of them are known and beloved by the readers of this list. They have already been published as a separate book.

Here are a few, for entertainment:

• All men are created unequal.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 243
• It may be better to be a live jackal than a dead lion, but it is better still to be a live lion. And usually easier.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 243
• One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 243
• Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", pp. 243-244
• A woman is not property, and husbands who think otherwise are living in a dreamworld.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 245
• A zygote is a gamete's way of producing more gametes. This may be the purpose of the universe.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 245
• Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something.
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 246
• Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 246
• What are the facts? Again and again and again — what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" — what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
o "Intermission: Excerpts from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long", p. 246


Jan

I like many of your sayings, but think that you should mine the Notebooks of Lazarus Long for some additions.

Jan

My mother was not permitted to have a credit card unless my father was also on it. I was not allowed to handle a gun during Basic Training in the AF. I was not allowed to go to certain colleges, or apply for certain professions.

Yes, it is cultural. Thank goodness our culture has changed for the better in this respect. What we have to do is rein in the absurdity of where liberal Feminism has currently gone and is going.

As with most things, women do not need 'help', we just need to not be blocked from doing everything that we can do.

Jan

I do not think that the giants of past ages were what we would consider giants now. There are two phenomena that I take into consideration when thinking about such things: one is the magic cauldron/sword/centaur and the other is different populations.

The magic thingie is well known in mythology: It is an item that is real - a bronze cauldron, a steel sword, a man riding a horse - which is put into legend because it is unique to the current culture. It subsequently becomes more and more miraculous (a cauldron that is never empty) so that it continues to be spectacular (ie in an era when bronze cauldrons are now common).

The second is that there were lots of branches of the human tree wandering around. Encounters between H sapiens sapiens and other branches might have described the other branches as giants; maybe they were taller, maybe not. (There is doubt that the giants of Norse myth were considered huge in early references.)

So I do not think that there were Nephilim per se.

Jan

We obviously have different opinions on this!

I am looking forward to where people can chose to sculpt their bodies the way we select the next car we will buy.

Insofar as transhumanizing devices: when they get a memory chip for humans, sign me up.

Jan, wishes she could remember why...

I have been thinking about this and I want to remark that Gender Equality is similar to Environmentalism: A really good idea that people have elaborated to the point of absurdity.

I am personally grateful to be born in a generation when society did not require a male caretaker for me. I am also, as a martial artist, very aware that while men are stronger than I am, that does not mean that I cannot beat the crap outta them for fun or in need.

Jan

You are quite correct that we have not gotten to the genetic level yet, though I think that is coming (and will not be difficult in one case). But I was reacting to your description of the process as cosmetic surgery. I have known individuals to trans, and the process changed things such as the roughness of the skin and the density of the muscles. These aspects are more sophisticated than surgery can provide.

Jan

Perverted Amazons? Only in your dreams, Old Ugly Carl!

Jan

Aw cummon. Non-humans are MUCH nicer than that!

Jan

There is some substantiation for the Amazons in the finds around the Black Sea from around 4-700 BC. New genetic analysis has revealed that many of the tombs labeled as male (due to the presence of swords and spears) are actually female.

Jan

In the old old days, Proto Indo European did not have pronouns or declensions that divided language by gender. This was developed after some of the earliest PIE languages split off.

Also, the term "man" was used to refer to men, women and even non-humans in English up through about the 12th Century; it retains that use only in a narrow liturgical context, ie the Virgin Mary is "blessed amongst men".

Jan

Not accurate. I have seen many trans people (before and after) and the physical changes are remarkable.
The change is real, whether or not it is 'natural' is moot.

Jan

Thanks for the links. I need to get off my butt and browse eBay more. It has been busy lately and I have been doing workish stuff at work!

Jan
(But getting a new laptop is ultimately 'work'.)

Ha! I use Win 7 and am looking for a 'new' laptop that is still Win 7. But I will take the second or third version of the autodrive that comes off the assembly line and I want that a lot sooner than 50 years.

People actually want the electric/hybrid cars and those are selling well (at least, last time I checked.) If you sell a product that people want to buy, they will do so. If you try to convince people that the next round of cosmetic changes is worth forking over a ton of bucks, then you get headlines like, Car Sales Drop.

I bet the first autodrive option cars will go like hotcakes.

Jan

I did get your mockery...but I think that the boat that the article missed was that of a 'desired change' vs that of a 'cosmetic promotional alteration'.

There is so much that is advertised that is just 'stuff' and nothing really advantageous. Making something that is actually an asset can still get sales.

Jan

Jan

I do not think the conclusion this article comes to is at all accurate. I think that the reason that auto sales are stalling is that everyone knows that the self-driving cars are on the verge of being released. For decades, automakers have been trying to sell their new models on the basis of 'has a dashboard that looks like an airplane' or 'has a rear style that looks like an elephant sat on it'. People flocked to buy electric and hybrid vehicles when they were released, because it was an actual substantial change. Now, with the possibility of having a autodrive option...why would you buy a car before that came out?

I have never bought a new car, but I have good credit and would consider buying a nice Jeep Grand Cherokee new if it came with autodrive that was at least good on highways.

Jan

This is wonderful. Millions of people who would not have heard of libertarianism now know about it. And certainly the pope speaking out against it will give it the dark attraction of the forbidden. I hope that he continues to rail against individualism as found in libertarianism.

Jan

You are correct I misspoke. I will try to send you further discussion but work is workish today.

Jan

I agree that we tend to underestimate how advanced ancient civilizations were, falsely equating technology with intelligence, and these conceptions are frequently being overturned eg the 200K year old ocher mines in Africa and the copper ax of the Iceman. But it does not matter what lines up with what: If radioisotope dating limits the building to 4th C BC, then we have to include that datum.

Jan