Recently one of the funniest comedians ever, Robin Williams, committed suicide. In AS, quite a few people committed suicide. I can never support suicide. However, is suicide a logical response to an illogical world? If so, please explain.
This is just Mimi’s theory..okay? People snap.We are controlled whether we like it or not by our deepest genetical code for self- survival. The brain doesn’t understand mortality; that’s part of the code. If it did.. it wouldn’t send the signal without end to our hearts to beat. If it did understand non-existence, you could tell your brain, “stop thinking for sec.” When people snap, the brain can’t handle the incoming stimuli. Unable to process the stimuli rationally, suicide is not only an option, it is self-defense, because in a twisted, yet logical way, the brain can free itself from whatever stimuli it has access as a threat to its’ survival. You can’t ask a brain in chaos to make order of itself.
oooooohhh, Mimi, I beg to disagree! people have gone to great lengths to handle excessive stimuli, or illogical ones like The End....... take religion, for example. Faith. we shield ourselves from the most awful imaginable thing by learning that life -- of another sort -- continues. and there is love for kids -- we view them as ourselves living on,,,,,,, and there is art -- a way to pass into eternity by dint of our talent, or fame, or infamy if it is negative.
for me, the last male of my name, tears come most easily when I lament having no kids. but I have lived well and loved well and been good to people, so I can go to sleep saying "if I die before I wake" with a good conscience. maybe heaven -- it's OK; let go of the excessive stimuli and sleep.
I snap every night. feels good. and I drank too much for a period. stopped, by will, overnight. my wife and the doctor are still puzzled. IQ is not always a blessing, but sometimes........ and I do not mean to belittle anyone who cannot handle the stimuli;;; I do my best to love them into staying around for awhile, like the man in our spare bedroom at the moment. -- j
I can understand that desperation. I've been to that precipice; I've looked into that abyss and what I saw seemed to be the least painful of all the alternatives.
And at that time, nobody who would be left behind mattered one bit; this was my life, to end or not end as I decided. I didn't owe anything to anyone else.
The only thing that prevented me from taking that next step was a question: What if I'm wrong? What if it's NOT the least painful action I could take?
What kept me from taking my own life was the thought that it was the one and only mistake in life that I couldn't correct, so I needed to make damn sure I was right.
I never got to that level of confidence, so I took three giant steps back from the edge, and looked at (and took) other options.
My heart goes out to his family and friends; based on what I've read about the circumstances, he reached the level of confidence in the decision I couldn't reach.
Glad you took those three giant steps back from the edge, giving a pretty powerful (to me) description of your dark time and how you resolved it. My deepest thanks for this, Rainman0720
We are geared for it to be full of pain and fear. As I was running from that tornado last year, my adrenaline was pumping, and I took desperate measures just to stay alive, even though every day before and since I had to convince myself not to eat a bullet.
I think it's a very private and painful decision. I'm pretty sure Robin Williams didn't care who 'supported' his decision or not. It was HIS decision to end HIS life. Right, wrong, logical, or otherwise... his. And he was obviously quite determined.
I am 79 years old and have never been hospitalized in my entire life. I have identified the way I want to go if I decide that my life is not worth living any more. Having witnessed consequences of strokes (or was it Alzheimer’s?), incurable cancers and Lou Gehrig disease, I am confident that family suffering is worse in cases of such prolonged slow deaths, than in a fast dispatch with a warning (my family knows my plan). Everybody knows that humans are mortal. If there is a life for a soul after body's death, do you think it depends on how the body died? Here is my idea of immortality. When we love someone deeply, many good things rub off them and into us. That way, they remain an indelible part of ourselves. This way, by loving them, we make them immortal in the only way that, at least I, can understand immortality. Those who love us inherit also those we loved. I do believe that relatives who insist on prolonging the life of unconscious bodies are committing an act of irrational selfishness.
Teri, my mom died from complications begun with breast cancer, which metastasized to her brain, then her bones, etc..... and we asked for pain medicine when she was dying from starvation, since she could not keep food down ....... and the answer was, "Morphine depresses heart rate and respiration." translation::: fear of a lawsuit.
When my father died, one of my greatest concerns was that, when I was gone, all the things by which I knew him would be gone too. It would be as if he never existed. For years I tried my hardest to remember every thing he told me, every memory he shared, every dirty song he taught me.
He had his own version of "Show Me The Way To Go Home" that I thought far better than the original. He used to sing songs by omitting the last word of each line, saying instead just its initial. But I digress.
When my mother died, I regretted that I'd never again taste her swiss steak in red gravy, or her special "apple salad". For some reason I obsessed on that.
And when I'm gone, all that'll be left behind is some "acid tongued" messages on the internet.
H, why not get a video camera and make a prolonged selfie? You could script it or have someone interview you, introduce snapshots, visual aids, etc. Stephen Spielberg had a project to do just that with Holocaust survivors. I can see John Wayne now in old movies jut as much as I ever did when he was alive (which was never in person) You could even debut on You Tube or Facebook.
If you look on my twitter, facebook, or instagram accounts, you'll see I don't have a picture of myself as my avatar.
I don't like to look in mirrors.
I don't see myself sitting in front of a camera talking to myself.
One of the endless projects of mine was to create a cartoon avatar, and using iClone software and a Kinect, have an animated character on Youtube. Problem is, not sure what he'd talk about. God knows there doesn't seem to be an audience for alienating, acid-tongued rhetoric.
I like this view, these emotions. I especially like the last sentence, typical H. exaggeration! I think H. should read "'Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card, w.r.t. the type of character called 'Speaker for the Dead'.
Brenner: Brilliant! It is one of those moments that, if you haven't lived it, you are not and never will be able to understand. That CAN be understood.
Suicide could only be a rational act for one with a life threatening and painful illness. In such a situation, the pain might overwhelm any possibility for a cure and to seek to eliminate such might be a rational decision.
And the same to you. Unfortunately, it is for some. We had a situation in WI in the past 6 months where an old couple faced just such a situation. Married for 50 yrs, wife had some medical issue that caused incredible pain and her system was too fragile for the necessary drugs to alleviate that pain (plus, they would basically have made her comatose). Her husband placed a pillow over her head. Not suicide, but thankfully the prosecutor chose not to bring up charges.
Yes it has. Don't you think that part of the problem are the focus on the length of life rather the quality of life (which only individual is entitled to judge for self) and the desire of the government to keep us alive as taxpayers as long as possible (the estate tax they will collect anyway, just a bit later)?
my hope, Hiraghm, derives from experience. so far, the stupid stuff I've done hasn't killed me. amazing.
I just try to avoid doing things which I can't expect to go well, from experience and extrapolation. but I do love motorcycles (have two) and riding gives a sense of freedom.
may your experience lead to hope for years to come, including your attempts to become notorious as an acid-tongue on the net!!! -- j
Suicide is often due to mental disease. In the case of Robin Williams, I think he was bipolar and suffered from deep clinical depression. Some believe it is due to imbalance in the neurotransmitters. I doubt the victims have much philosophy behind their decision to take their own lives. I think they are merely seeking to end the psychological pain they are suffering. I have known a couple suicides who were resuscitated. They all said the pain of death was nothing as price to pay for relief from the pain they were suffering. How they arrive at this conclusion, I don't know. No one survives suicide to testify to its pain relieving properties. A couple of them tried again and succeeded. The cases who survived didn't try again. I don't know about why that is either. I asked one of them how death promised relief. He said he didn't know, but that it was instinctual. He just knew it would work; he expected annihilation.
I live with a bi-polar mate. She could be Robin #2 in her high moods. In her low moods, the only thing she didn't try was suicide. I thought for years he was bi-polar based on the few times I saw him on stage performing and once in a while on talk shows when he was down. I think the human side of his personality was soft focus depression. Patch Adams was the closest to his personality type I've ever seen.
My father is bi -polar. Of course in tbe early days he was diagnosed as a manic. I 'm not sure manic depressive is a current term used? Most people are hidden from the lows. They are so bad, there is usually a co -dependence role happening in order for survival. When they are at the other end it is also hell. I call that "super happy." You long for the middle and you rarely get glimpses of it. Drugs are marginal. The disease is hugely physical but of course takes a mental toll on the patient. Everyone close to them is hugely affected. Anyway, he wasn 't going on talk shows in his despair cycle. Trust me
I'm sure. Have you tried Al-Anon? They and Mental Health for Families can help. I go to both AA and Al-Anon because there is a sober person living in my head with the alcoholic. LOL I live with the alcoholic and the bi-polar wife. She also has OCD and is a hoarder. FUN? Anyone? Life on life's terms. It would get me down but with my HP, AA, Al-Anon, I am OK
About 8 years ago I saw him on the Fergus show, he did some funny stuff, but looked really tired and as if he had lost a friend recently. He looked like he had just come from an internment service.That was a memorable time, but there were others. Once I saw him with Dick Cavette. They were in a one ups-manship contest of depressive comments. The audience laughed, kind of like they were sympathetic instead of entertained. Later I learned Dick Cavette was a depressive. I don't know if he is still living. I am so glad I am only a recovering alcoholic. I don't quite fit in at AA either because I was a happy drunk who just couldn't stop once I got started. The 4th and 8th step are really buggers because all the people I could have offended are dead. I am near 70 years of age and almost everyone is younger than I. I am a loner, so don't have any friends to offend. Maybe here? LOL
hey, john!! piss us off! go ahead! we will stick with you, regardless! this is a good place for people to be themselves and live life naturally. Live It, sir!!! -- j
LOL thanks, I will. Don't mean to piss anyone off. Being sober means I have to work on my character defects. Sobriety is a shocker, I thought I was perfect.
I gave up alcohol 3.5432 years ago, John, and don't miss it a bit -- yeah! the divorce ripped out things which I did not know were there. sober as Judge Dredd, now, and loving it!!! -- j
Sorry, I'm a non-computer geek. LOL I gave you my e-mail subscription by mistake. This is the site, but you have to scroll around it to find the daily thought. http://www.aa-alive.net/
ever notice how in the media, even on Fox News, intolerant Moslems are referred to as "radical", and intolerant Christians/Jews are referred to as "fundamentalist"?
As if intolerance was inherent in Christianity and Judaism, but an aberration in Islam.
Dr. Jim,,, after some calm, slow, patient thought ....... Robin was gifted with two exceptional talents -- speed of thought and allegory (or something like it) which led to delightful humor. That british bobby looks like he has a turtle on his head! fast and funny and innovative at the same time.
now. if I had that running in my head, and I had trouble controlling it -- the speed, the newness -- I might want to slow it down, or to get relief from it sometimes. this might lead to drugs, alcohol,,,,,
I personally loved alcohol because it gradually narrowed my brain down to a single track, when I was about half drunk. I bet that he had to be really zonked to reach the one-track state.
he might just have burned out from the wear and tear of having such power running up top. -- j
Suicide is a nasty thing. My brother did it at age 39 in his living room with a pistol to his head. After I told my dad he said, you're not supposed to outlive your kids, and not another word was ever spoken about it after that day. I still get ill feelings about it every Christmas day.
Okay, I will. My brother's death was December 25th 1985. He was a cross country truck driver, having marital problems after being robbed a few times on the road. Dad died Sept 1994 while on vacation in Las Vegas pulling handles at age 82. His pockets were bulging full of quarters. Mom called to tell me he died and in tears she asked if she had to claim his winnings on her income tax. That made me cry and laugh at the same time. Thank goodness the whole family has People's Memorial Association, they took care of everything and delivered dad home to Seattle in a small box to mom's door. Mom died in 2000.
No offense intended, but I hate that "family" s... stuff. I had a family. An association of people not related to me by blood, and with whom I did not grow up is not a family.
I guess I hate it because I grew up in the 60s/70s when the cults were suckering in disillusioned kids with creepy promises of "family".
I remember when playing online games, I'd join a guild, and within days someone would be talking about how this guild was a "family". A family of people who'd never even seen each other and lived all over the world. Argh.
Gayle Wynand in The Fountainhead committed suicide when he realized that his whole life had been a sham. Makes for good drama, but the character in real life would have been wrong. He still had the ability to achieve great things but he gave up on himself. Then, of course, there's the issue of being incapacitated and under great pain, with death an ongoing companion. That may be the only good reason for suicide. In the rollercoaster we call life, many of us reach a dead end (Pun intended) where there seems to be no way out. But by the mere act of persevering, somehow we find ourselves back on the upswing. Unlike a rollercoaster, however, if you give up at the bottom, you will stay there. Depression can be overcome unless it's a chemical imbalance which sometimes can be helped by drugs. I think ennui and apathy have more to do with suicide than most people will admit.
I look at suicide as the ultimate loss of hope. To commit suicide, one has to have evaluated all one's options and decided that all roads lead to a negative payback - including the hereafter. One also has to conclude that there is similarly nothing to be gained by others in your continued existence. Along the same line, one also has to conclude that one can not produce anything of benefit to others. They believe that they can be neither the recipient nor generator of value.
I truly pity anyone who would reach such a point in their life and would ask them to reconsider. No one is truly alone and there are always people who care. Don't give up and don't give in to the feelings of worthlessness and despair.
It may seem cliche, but one can always try counting one's blessings. I am amazed just by looking around at my own circumstances and comparing them to others' around the globe of what I have access to. I have eyes that work. I have ears that work. I have legs that work. I live in a great country. Et cetera.
You do so well in the first paragraph, and then bury it in the second.
There's alone and there's alone.
Lance Clayton: "I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is ending up with people who make you feel all alone. " - Robin Williams in "World's Greatest Dad".
Robin Williams was a wonderful actor, and comedian, but he had so many demons to fight....I think he was simply overwhelmed. He committed suicide. The man is dead. Time to give him and his family the dignity he deserves.
JB, my work involves the dead and I see suicide notes (and more) a couple of times a week. I usually have cast-iron guts but a final letter from some months ago struck me as a beautifully written and logically argued piece that fully resonated as 'live for the sake of no other person" He was in his 30s, well- read and travelled and no illness of any sort. That young man was in control of his death. I wanted to post his letter here - he was expressing my view of my life - just he had chosen a different outcome. Obviously it would have been very wrong to post it. I have often posited to myself that Galt's creed supports self-determination to the point of organising one's death. Don't get me wrong - i have zero intention of suiciding. I strongly say it is a valid decision but Galt starts with 'by my life and my love of it. And would you want your workmates to see you in the nuddy? LOL
Thanks, Maree. It is precisely the anti-life vs. Galt's oath question that I am trying to reconcile in my mind. If it were me that had to make this choice, I would consider it an exceedingly difficult contradiction. When others are considering this choice, I counsel against suicide, but ultimately it is that person's decision.
Our lives are constrained and our choices limited by all the conditions surrounding us--family, friends, and most of all government. How we exit this world is the last outpost of self-ownership and sovereignty in the face of the demands of others; the last assertion of free will.
Robin Williams did not appear to be terminally ill, waiting to be tortured to death in a hospital bed. He leaves a legacy of a full life of cinematic achievements. It is not for us to judge whether his exit was irrational or rooted in hopelessness. It is enough to accept that it was his right and his last act of doing it his way when to ring down the curtain.
Suicide is a personal, truly selfish choice. There could be a potentially rational reason for choosing to commit suicide: for example, if one is dying from a terminal disease and medical costs are through the roof, one might rationally choose to kill himself rather than lose his life savings (which he might have intended for his progeny) for only painfully prolonging a life that is doomed anyway. Especially if this person has already led a long, full life. I know I would choose that path. Also I would rather kill myself than be a perpetual burden on my loved ones. What is so wrong about that? (Religious convictions aside, of course.)
As far as experiencing severe chemical imbalances so as to render one incapable of clean rational thought--and to be lodged in unbearable torment--suicide does seem to present itself as a "logical response to an illogical (state of being.)"
Also, if one were subjected to lifelong slavery or even a life sentence in jail, suicide would seem to present a more reasonable alternative with greater dignity than living in lifelong torment or confinement. I firmly hold that "quality of life" takes priority to "quantity of life."
Suicide is most often an illogical response to illogical perceptions of the world- not to an illogical world. The world and reality is always logical. Learning to understand what causes the misperceptions is the answer to what may appear to be an illogical world, whether the perceptions are illogical or the processing of correct perceptions are illogical.
In too many ways, our current society of unrealistic expectations, ingrains in some minds a rejection of the expectation that natural life WILL provide failures, losses, and pain from time to time and fails to prepare the rational mind to overcome such or to know that success only comes after learning the lessons of failure. Note the reported increases of teenage suicide in the 20th century.
An incongruity that no one seems to have resolved to date is that the most suicides by % are Dentists.
Euthanasia on the other hand may very well be a logical response to an inevitability of a known, unbearable pain and suffering to come.
My dentist cousin committed suicide. On the outside, he seemed like one of the happiest people I knew. A month before he committed suicide, he told other family members that the grind was getting to be too much to him. I didn't find this out until the funeral.
My uncle Johnny committed suicide.... I think he was in his 40s when he hanged himself. His wife had left him and taken his kids.
He survived the Korean War, wouldn't talk about his experiences there. And I recall my mother would once in awhile call me "Johnny" by accident. Usually when around her sisters.
Depression is viewed as a mental illness so perhaps Robin Williams (always admired him) made an insane decision that God can overlook. I was once in such emotional pain that I thought about it but was afraid of going to hell for the murder of myself. That would definitely work out to be far worse pain, wouldn't it? (Would have missed a lot since then too). Raises a question. Do captured spies who face Gestapo-level torture face hell when they bite government issue cyanide pills? I submit they do not. Why? You save lives by not ultimately spilling all your beans.
Whether it's a logical or illocial response is entirely subjective. There are people who've come to the conclusion that it was illogical for them, and there are people who have come to the opposite conclusion. What it all boils down to is whether you think it's the right thing to do for you.
I wonder if, in AS3, Cheryl Brooks kills herself as she did in the book. Rand's description of Cheryl's act included an explanation of why it was a rational response to her situation. Acted out on the screen without that explanation, it's not going to look rational to anybody.
Yes, Cheryl and Eddie represent all the rest of society. Without them and how they are treated and realize what has happened, it's just a story of the titans and the evildoers.
Yes. I remember when someone asked Rand, "What happened to Eddie Willers?" she replied (I paraphrase here, but not far off), "That's for YOU to decide."
Would Galt have been a coward for suiciding if they started torturing Dagney, as he promised he'd do?
I submit that suicide can be a rational choice, if one can, with reasonable accuracy, foresee one's future, and finds said future unacceptable. Seems some kind of violation of Objectivist "natural rights" to force people to go on living a life they don't want to live, to me.
This issue is one of the reasons I do not consider myself an Objectivist. Nonetheless, I would not force someone to live or die against his/her will. I just could not willingly choose death.
I completely agree! It is the ultimate "up yours" to everyone that loves you and cares about you. Even if you choose not to acknowledge them, they are still there. I was only this desperate one time and I ended up laughing at myself. It's just not worth it. I care too much about the people around me.
You suggest that a person should live for the sake of another man - a definite "no" for Objectivists. and further - what if there IS no one who loves you and cares about you?
I will readily admit that I do not know that death of the body is the end of life. I hope it is not. If not, I have lived in a way that, should the death of the body not be the end of life, I am quite confident that I am on a proper path.
In a physical sense your mother makes your body and you sustain it using the elements from the planet where you are born. Life is passed to you by your mother as well. The state of life is analogous to fire in that it can expand indefinitely if there is fuel and an oxidant and certain other conditions, life can expand undiminished. If that analogy holds, its a form of energy.
First law of Thermo says energy is never lost, just changes its form. So it pleases me to think that a ray of sunshine that warms my back on a chilly day, or a gentle breeze that caresses my cheek may be someone I loved or who once loved me.
The concept of a soul, if there is one, is intangible. I'd like to believe we have one and its the essence, intellect, whatever, of who we are, but I see no way to prove it in a strictly physical universe.
I, too, hope that death is not the end of life, just a new beginning for whatever is next. Doesn't make sense to learn so much in one lifetime then to lose all that experience by a physical death of the body. Irrational? Maybe.
I'm not entirely convinced that suicide is an out, just a temporary relief from the present situation. As I consider this life to be a lesson I need to face and learn from to go on to the next. Whatever that is. That together with my never-ending curiosity and vibrant imagination keep me from seriously considering taking my own life. Whatever that is. Its worked for 70 some odd years. So far, so good. Have I faced personal adversity in my life? Yup. Some of them personally devastating, where I gave some thought to leaving the planet? Yup. What stopped me? Always something caught my interest and made me wonder what was around the next corner in this journey. Looking back I could see that whatever made me think of ending my life was not all that serious in the grand scheme of life. Just a momentary bump in the road. To be endured and learned from to the next bump. That's just me. I am an individual, not anyone else, that is how I handle my life and whatever problems I encounter. I cannot, and will not, speak to anyone else's experience, for I am not them. Each to his own.
Ayn Rand's own philosophy might be called borderline nihilistic, in that instead of dealing with society is and bettering it, there comes a time in her view to let the patient die and remove what feeds it. It's a quality of life issue. At what point do you pull the plug? Most people do not realize that they give as much importance to their mental self-image as they do to their real self. Their mental self-image can be brought into question, and if secure and based on reality, all they are confronted with is the facts they already know; example:
A) "You're fat." B) "I know." A) "Err...well, you're stupid, too!" B) "Nope, know that one's not true." A) "Well, I have a knife and I'm going to use it!" B) "POLICE! HELP!"
Those who are basing their self-esteem on what they aren't, who have built an imaginary self are often confused about what a real threat to themselves vs. damage to a false self-image;
C) "You're fat." D) "Am not!" C) "Fatty, fatty, fatty." D) "Leave me alone, it's not my fault." C) "And you're stupid!" D) "Go away! Leave me alone!" ... D) "What's the point in living...".
All that has been damaged, over time, is an image the person repeatedly refuses to let go of. A truly stupid person rarely kills themselves, because they can fool themselves easily. An intelligent person repeatedly picks at their self-image because they cannot reconcile what they want with what they perceive. They spiral between fooling themselves and facing a reality they refuse to embrace.
E) "I am fat. I am responsible. What are you going to do about it? If you can't, can you live with it? Of course you can - it won't kill you.
What troubled Robin? Don't know. But unless his life was in danger by health or violence issues, he killed himself unnecessarily because we don't have the means yet to systematically explore and deconstruct self-image due to OUR insistence on embracing self-esteem as an essential of our self-image.
True, remembering that persistent thoughts driven by certain mental habits can create chemical imbalances.
Is the epinephrine count causing paranoia or is the paranoia creating the higher epinephrine count? We don't have the means to be sure without further study.
Not logical so much as desperate. Some very smart people who had a perceptive understanding of the world around them and were thereby driven to suicide because of the sheer hopelessness of it all. Very sad when we lose the best of us because of the sad state of affairs that the rest of us don't see.
I saw this and some other instances in this, in my opinion, great discussion, describe the world as "illogical and irrational". Sorry to say, but to me that is nonsense. The world has no such property nor an ability to acquire it (through "learning"?). Human brains have ability (greatly varied among individuals) to generate logical and rational relationships among percepts and concepts. I think that this is the essence of AR's command: "Check your premises!" Don't you agree? Isn't "hope" just an expectation on the part of a human of an outcome, in the future, which he expects to judge as beneficial?
Yes. Hope is all we have to keep us "sane" in an irrational world. Some who see the world around them as hopeless will want to opt out.
Personally, I recognize existence as painful and frustrating. To survive this perception, I need to let go of it. If I can change it I will, if I can't I won't. I just hope that I have the insight to know the difference.
In the meantime, live your life to the fullest, doing no harm. Have compassion towards all. Be at peace.
The world is always changing. Go with the tide because otherwise it will drown you.
Hi, Fountainhead24, I agree that hope is one of the tools to cope with the world which we do not understand and cannot control, which, I think, you and others mean when you say "irrational world". I think that you are neglecting to mention the joys and pleasures of life along with the pains and frustrations. I think that you have to enjoy the joys and pleasures, while steeling yourself to endure the pains and frustrations. Your suggestion to live the life to the fullest I read to mean to learn to handle all four of those and all their "derivatives". To me, life contains good and evil. I do strive, I confess, to do harm to the evil. What is good and what is evil? That depends on ones moral and other values. Doesn't this say that freedom means choosing one's moral values and accepting responsibility for that choice? My guts somehow urge me to go the opposite way than that in which I perceive the "crowd" to go. I have done it all my life and never regretted it. If that means swimming against the tide, I guess that it also means that you and I have a difference of opinion. It is a real pleasure for me to discuss this with you. Have a great one and thanks.
The "irrational world" from my perspective is the human world which we do not understand and cannot control, even though it is "ours" as opposed to the natural world which is that of Nature and is totally balanced and thus beyond most human's comprehension.
You are correct in pointing out that we should enjoy the joys and pleasures that are afforded us while steeling ourselves to endure the pains and frustrations that existence entails.
I don't think that you and I have much of a difference of opinion because I support all that you are saying. When I said "Go with the tide because otherwise it will drown you" I should have added that, if you see someone else in the stream polluting the waters, it is OK to scuttle their boat.
In my whole life I have also opposed the way I perceived the "crowd" going especially when I disagreed with it, and I have never regretted it.
Thanks for your input. I value your opinion and hope we can further converse in the future.
People snap.We are controlled whether we like it or not by our deepest genetical code for self- survival. The brain doesn’t understand mortality; that’s part of the code. If it did.. it wouldn’t send the signal without end to our hearts to beat. If it did understand non-existence, you could tell your brain, “stop thinking for sec.”
When people snap, the brain can’t handle the incoming stimuli. Unable to process the stimuli rationally, suicide is not only an option, it is self-defense, because in a twisted, yet logical way, the brain can free itself from whatever stimuli it has access as a threat to its’ survival.
You can’t ask a brain in chaos to make order of itself.
gone to great lengths to handle excessive stimuli,
or illogical ones like The End....... take religion,
for example. Faith. we shield ourselves from the
most awful imaginable thing by learning that life --
of another sort -- continues. and there is love for
kids -- we view them as ourselves living on,,,,,,,
and there is art -- a way to pass into eternity by
dint of our talent, or fame, or infamy if it is negative.
for me, the last male of my name, tears come most
easily when I lament having no kids. but I have
lived well and loved well and been good to people,
so I can go to sleep saying "if I die before I wake"
with a good conscience. maybe heaven -- it's
OK; let go of the excessive stimuli and sleep.
I snap every night. feels good. and I drank too much
for a period. stopped, by will, overnight. my wife
and the doctor are still puzzled. IQ is not always a
blessing, but sometimes........
and I do not mean to belittle anyone who cannot
handle the stimuli;;; I do my best to love them into
staying around for awhile, like the man in our spare
bedroom at the moment. -- j
And at that time, nobody who would be left behind mattered one bit; this was my life, to end or not end as I decided. I didn't owe anything to anyone else.
The only thing that prevented me from taking that next step was a question: What if I'm wrong? What if it's NOT the least painful action I could take?
What kept me from taking my own life was the thought that it was the one and only mistake in life that I couldn't correct, so I needed to make damn sure I was right.
I never got to that level of confidence, so I took three giant steps back from the edge, and looked at (and took) other options.
My heart goes out to his family and friends; based on what I've read about the circumstances, he reached the level of confidence in the decision I couldn't reach.
Very sad.
from the edge, giving a pretty powerful (to
me) description of your dark time and how
you resolved it. My deepest thanks for this,
Rainman0720
I, as you have found myself at that precipice.
I won't give him a chance to say it again, but my response would be, "... in this case, a permanent solution to a permanent problem."
Per my beliefs, suicide is a one-way ticket to hell. But that's not much of a deterrent, since I know I'm going there anyway.
Survival is indeed an instinct.
Here is my idea of immortality. When we love someone deeply, many good things rub off them and into us. That way, they remain an indelible part of ourselves. This way, by loving them, we make them immortal in the only way that, at least I, can understand immortality. Those who love us inherit also those we loved. I do believe that relatives who insist on prolonging the life of unconscious bodies are committing an act of irrational selfishness.
Toward the end I wondered: "Why can't we just give her an overdose of heroin?"
NOBODY should be forced to die that way.
breast cancer, which metastasized to her brain, then
her bones, etc..... and we asked for pain medicine
when she was dying from starvation, since she
could not keep food down ....... and the answer
was, "Morphine depresses heart rate and
respiration." translation::: fear of a lawsuit.
very sad. -- j
So sorry for your loss but also for the stupidly of the end-of-life protocol.
He had his own version of "Show Me The Way To Go Home" that I thought far better than the original. He used to sing songs by omitting the last word of each line, saying instead just its initial. But I digress.
When my mother died, I regretted that I'd never again taste her swiss steak in red gravy, or her special "apple salad". For some reason I obsessed on that.
And when I'm gone, all that'll be left behind is some "acid tongued" messages on the internet.
I don't like to look in mirrors.
I don't see myself sitting in front of a camera talking to myself.
One of the endless projects of mine was to create a cartoon avatar, and using iClone software and a Kinect, have an animated character on Youtube. Problem is, not sure what he'd talk about. God knows there doesn't seem to be an audience for alienating, acid-tongued rhetoric.
But I thank you for the suggestion.
I think H. should read "'Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card, w.r.t. the type of character called 'Speaker for the Dead'.
That's before it was expanded. I never read the expanded version, just the part ending where he wins the war.
The last is not exaggeration. I wish it were. I'm trying to make it so.
Brilliant! It is one of those moments that, if you haven't lived it, you are not and never will be able to understand. That CAN be understood.
Despair...
the stupid stuff I've done hasn't killed me. amazing.
I just try to avoid doing things which I can't expect to
go well, from experience and extrapolation. but I do
love motorcycles (have two) and riding gives
a sense of freedom.
may your experience lead to hope for years to
come, including your attempts to become notorious
as an acid-tongue on the net!!! -- j
you, regardless! this is a good place for people to
be themselves and live life naturally. Live It, sir!!! -- j
LOL thanks, I will. Don't mean to piss anyone off. Being sober means I have to work on my character defects. Sobriety is a shocker, I thought I was perfect.
miss it a bit -- yeah! the divorce ripped out things
which I did not know were there. sober as Judge
Dredd, now, and loving it!!! -- j
associated with it, according to google, after I waked
up my account again. any other clues? -- j
ever notice how in the media, even on Fox News, intolerant Moslems are referred to as "radical", and intolerant Christians/Jews are referred to as "fundamentalist"?
As if intolerance was inherent in Christianity and Judaism, but an aberration in Islam.
or fear of -- Muslims, these days. -- j
Robin was gifted with two exceptional talents --
speed of thought and allegory (or something like it)
which led to delightful humor. That british bobby
looks like he has a turtle on his head! fast and funny
and innovative at the same time.
now. if I had that running in my head, and I had
trouble controlling it -- the speed, the newness --
I might want to slow it down, or to get relief from it
sometimes. this might lead to drugs, alcohol,,,,,
I personally loved alcohol because it gradually
narrowed my brain down to a single track, when
I was about half drunk. I bet that he had to be
really zonked to reach the one-track state.
he might just have burned out from the wear and
tear of having such power running up top. -- j
trying to narrow it down ... without alcohol !!! -- j
p.s. gave up alcohol 31jan2011 -- Dr. orders,,,
for liver, etc....
I had a family. An association of people not related to me by blood, and with whom I did not grow up is not a family.
I guess I hate it because I grew up in the 60s/70s when the cults were suckering in disillusioned kids with creepy promises of "family".
I remember when playing online games, I'd join a guild, and within days someone would be talking about how this guild was a "family". A family of people who'd never even seen each other and lived all over the world. Argh.
Check your premise.
I truly pity anyone who would reach such a point in their life and would ask them to reconsider. No one is truly alone and there are always people who care. Don't give up and don't give in to the feelings of worthlessness and despair.
It may seem cliche, but one can always try counting one's blessings. I am amazed just by looking around at my own circumstances and comparing them to others' around the globe of what I have access to. I have eyes that work. I have ears that work. I have legs that work. I live in a great country. Et cetera.
There's alone and there's alone.
Lance Clayton: "I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is ending up with people who make you feel all alone. "
- Robin Williams in "World's Greatest Dad".
Unfortunately, more and more people do not hold to an absolutist world view.
that's an absolute. there are others. -- j
I usually have cast-iron guts but a final letter from some months ago struck me as a beautifully written and logically argued piece that fully resonated as 'live for the sake of no other person"
He was in his 30s, well- read and travelled and no illness of any sort.
That young man was in control of his death.
I wanted to post his letter here - he was expressing my view of my life - just he had chosen a different outcome.
Obviously it would have been very wrong to post it.
I have often posited to myself that Galt's creed supports self-determination to the point of organising one's death.
Don't get me wrong - i have zero intention of suiciding. I strongly say it is a valid decision but Galt starts with 'by my life and my love of it.
And would you want your workmates to see you in the nuddy? LOL
Robin Williams did not appear to be terminally ill, waiting to be tortured to death in a hospital bed. He leaves a legacy of a full life of cinematic achievements. It is not for us to judge whether his exit was irrational or rooted in hopelessness. It is enough to accept that it was his right and his last act of doing it his way when to ring down the curtain.
I guess Ernest, cause you said "himself" and "he".
I never understood why he or Judy Garland suicided when I was young... now I do.
As far as experiencing severe chemical imbalances so as to render one incapable of clean rational thought--and to be lodged in unbearable torment--suicide does seem to present itself as a "logical response to an illogical (state of being.)"
Also, if one were subjected to lifelong slavery or even a life sentence in jail, suicide would seem to present a more reasonable alternative with greater dignity than living in lifelong torment or confinement. I firmly hold that "quality of life" takes priority to "quantity of life."
In too many ways, our current society of unrealistic expectations, ingrains in some minds a rejection of the expectation that natural life WILL provide failures, losses, and pain from time to time and fails to prepare the rational mind to overcome such or to know that success only comes after learning the lessons of failure. Note the reported increases of teenage suicide in the 20th century.
An incongruity that no one seems to have resolved to date is that the most suicides by % are Dentists.
Euthanasia on the other hand may very well be a logical response to an inevitability of a known, unbearable pain and suffering to come.
He survived the Korean War, wouldn't talk about his experiences there. And I recall my mother would once in awhile call me "Johnny" by accident. Usually when around her sisters.
Life has its ironies.
Raises a question. Do captured spies who face Gestapo-level torture face hell when they bite government issue cyanide pills? I submit they do not. Why? You save lives by not ultimately spilling all your beans.
Cherryl and Eddie are both the reader, both YOU.
Yeah, I used to think that too.
Would Galt have been a coward for suiciding if they started torturing Dagney, as he promised he'd do?
I submit that suicide can be a rational choice, if one can, with reasonable accuracy, foresee one's future, and finds said future unacceptable.
Seems some kind of violation of Objectivist "natural rights" to force people to go on living a life they don't want to live, to me.
First law of Thermo says energy is never lost, just changes its form. So it pleases me to think that a ray of sunshine that warms my back on a chilly day, or a gentle breeze that caresses my cheek may be someone I loved or who once loved me.
The concept of a soul, if there is one, is intangible. I'd like to believe we have one and its the essence, intellect, whatever, of who we are, but I see no way to prove it in a strictly physical universe.
That together with my never-ending curiosity and vibrant imagination keep me from seriously considering taking my own life. Whatever that is.
Its worked for 70 some odd years. So far, so good.
Have I faced personal adversity in my life? Yup. Some of them personally devastating, where I gave some thought to leaving the planet? Yup. What stopped me? Always something caught my interest and made me wonder what was around the next corner in this journey.
Looking back I could see that whatever made me think of ending my life was not all that serious in the grand scheme of life. Just a momentary bump in the road. To be endured and learned from to the next bump.
That's just me. I am an individual, not anyone else, that is how I handle my life and whatever problems I encounter. I cannot, and will not, speak to anyone else's experience, for I am not them. Each to his own.
It's a quality of life issue.
At what point do you pull the plug?
Most people do not realize that they give as much importance to their mental self-image as they do to their real self. Their mental self-image can be brought into question, and if secure and based on reality, all they are confronted with is the facts they already know; example:
A) "You're fat."
B) "I know."
A) "Err...well, you're stupid, too!"
B) "Nope, know that one's not true."
A) "Well, I have a knife and I'm going to use it!"
B) "POLICE! HELP!"
Those who are basing their self-esteem on what they aren't, who have built an imaginary self are often confused about what a real threat to themselves vs. damage to a false self-image;
C) "You're fat."
D) "Am not!"
C) "Fatty, fatty, fatty."
D) "Leave me alone, it's not my fault."
C) "And you're stupid!"
D) "Go away! Leave me alone!"
...
D) "What's the point in living...".
All that has been damaged, over time, is an image the person repeatedly refuses to let go of. A truly stupid person rarely kills themselves, because they can fool themselves easily. An intelligent person repeatedly picks at their self-image because they cannot reconcile what they want with what they perceive. They spiral between fooling themselves and facing a reality they refuse to embrace.
E) "I am fat. I am responsible. What are you going to do about it? If you can't, can you live with it? Of course you can - it won't kill you.
What troubled Robin? Don't know.
But unless his life was in danger by health or violence issues, he killed himself unnecessarily because we don't have the means yet to systematically explore and deconstruct self-image due to OUR insistence on embracing self-esteem as an essential of our self-image.
That's another subject.
Is the epinephrine count causing paranoia or is the paranoia creating the higher epinephrine count? We don't have the means to be sure without further study.
Personally, I recognize existence as painful and frustrating. To survive this perception, I need to let go of it. If I can change it I will, if I can't I won't. I just hope that I have the insight to know the difference.
In the meantime, live your life to the fullest, doing no harm. Have compassion towards all. Be at peace.
The world is always changing. Go with the tide because otherwise it will drown you.
I agree that hope is one of the tools to cope with the world which we do not understand and cannot control, which, I think, you and others mean when you say "irrational world".
I think that you are neglecting to mention the joys and pleasures of life along with the pains and frustrations. I think that you have to enjoy the joys and pleasures, while steeling yourself to endure the pains and frustrations. Your suggestion to live the life to the fullest I read to mean to learn to handle all four of those and all their "derivatives".
To me, life contains good and evil. I do strive, I confess, to do harm to the evil. What is good and what is evil? That depends on ones moral and other values. Doesn't this say that freedom means choosing one's moral values and accepting responsibility for that choice?
My guts somehow urge me to go the opposite way than that in which I perceive the "crowd" to go. I have done it all my life and never regretted it. If that means swimming against the tide, I guess that it also means that you and I have a difference of opinion.
It is a real pleasure for me to discuss this with you.
Have a great one and thanks.
You are correct in pointing out that we should enjoy the joys and pleasures that are afforded us while steeling ourselves to endure the pains and frustrations that existence entails.
I don't think that you and I have much of a difference of opinion because I support all that you are saying. When I said "Go with the tide because otherwise it will drown you" I should have added that, if you see someone else in the stream polluting the waters, it is OK to scuttle their boat.
In my whole life I have also opposed the way I perceived the "crowd" going especially when I disagreed with it, and I have never regretted it.
Thanks for your input. I value your opinion and hope we can further converse in the future.
Peace Out!
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