Question for you regarding Altruism

Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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We've had a totally voluntary military for about 40 years now.
The ultimate altruistic act would be to willingly give one's life for others.
We've had several periods of conflict over those 40 years.

How do Objectivists view those who volunteer for the military? Especially the Army and Marines who have been the brunt of the casualties in the past 40 years.

Isn't volunteering for something that might result in the ultimate sacrifice, one's own life, for the benefit of others, the ultimate form of altruism?

Should those who volunteer for the military be admired, or vilified?

All Comments

  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am a quality engineer and look at process change the same way. Half process and half the people. And the people part can be really surprising.
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    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Which is why I have such a problem with her terminology. Why use a word when it's definition has a much better and more precise use of terminology? It's not that the word itself encompasses a vast definition. As you point out, it is merely "concern with one's own interests," thus, wouldn't self-interest be a better and more accurate term?

    Selfish has other connotations, that I agree, she wanted as they are provocative. She intentionally wanted to draw attention.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Have you read TVOS? The introduction in my copy (ISBN: 978-0-451-16393-6, paperback) provides a detailed cogent argument for her usage. Her usage, to most, would require the qualifier "rational" selfishness, but while she explains that she chose the word "For the reason that it makes you afraid of it." a few sentences later she writes: "...Yet the exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word "selfishness" is: concern with one's own interests." In this narrow sense without the additional baggage it is appropriate. I do not know from what dictionary pre-1960s she took it... If you have not read the book, I would recommend it. It is a short read, well worth the time. Usage and the common vernacular change...
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But if instead I pulled out my own gun, and blew out my brains to scare the maniac off?

    btw - I can now do some of that practicing that you speak of. Found a stash of 22LR and I've been buying it as fast as I can. Limit is 3 boxes of 100 per visit (they say per day, but morning noon and eve has gone fine). They still have a couple cases left and I'll get it all if I can. 10 cents a round - highway robbery.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not sure. I do study human behavior (a job requirement - most process change is 50% process and 50% people, so I need to understand motivations and resistances in order to be effective, and my boss seems to be quite happy with my effectiveness), but I'm an engineer by training and process improvement professional by current practice.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ah, yes, that's the other one. I would say the concept is "rational self-interest" not selfishness. Selfishness has a negative connotation, self-interest does not.

    And if it has already been identified that she did so intentionally, then my evaluation probably has merit. Thanks.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Some of the instances of MofH are where a soldier/airman/marine had brief relationship with others, so I'm not sure that the relationship angle truly holds.

    I think this has played itself out. Find my reply to OA here - my feeling is that the word is stretched beyond it's actual meaning and O's insist on giving it meaning beyond what it is, which confuses folks like me because you are not using the word precisely.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 9 years, 9 months ago
    Robbie's comment: "It's not opinions, it's interpretations..." I wonder, Robbie, if you are a Social Behaviorist of some sort, and legitmately interested in why people act they way they do?
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  • Posted by Solver 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So altruism is not a package deal where as egoism is. And anyone who has or shows concern for others practices altruism. Meaning John Galt did practice altruism.

    This changes everything.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    She was most concerned and focused upon the definition as it pertains to governance. "The political expression of altruism is collectivism or statism, which holds that man's life and work belong to the state—to society, to the group, the gang, the race, ..." http://aynrandlexicon.com/searchresults/...
    There is much more to it than that and her source for the particular meaning is provided in at least one of her books, but at the moment it escapes me.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "torture definition."
    I think this can easily happen when we are discussing definition of words with ethical systems. In this case "altruism" vs. "egoism." They are related but the concepts are somewhat different.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In the beginning of my copy of TVOS, there is a section that deals with the definition she applied to the word "selfishness" she had to pick only one narrow meaning from a particular dictionary and it is believed she did it in order to be provocative. Of course, the meaning and common usage of words change over time...
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is an instance where I think that AR tortured the language to suit her needs - and my thinking is that she was intentionally looking to misconstrue the meaning in order to subvert her critics.

    To whit: Altruistic - having or showing a concern for the welfare of others (from Merriam-Webster). One can tell a lot about the overall context of the meaning of the word by examining it's synonyms - beneficent, benevolent, do-good, eleemosynary, good, humanitarian, philanthropic - none of which seem to carry the connotation of obligated servitude.
    The extreme definition of altruism that seems to be the common interpretation of O's I would call slavery or bondage. Those, are evil.

    There's another tortured definition that I have a problem with, but for the life of me, I'm at a loss to remember it at the moment. When I do, I'll add it.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Think you may want to check your premise there...

    Edit... Oh wait... thought you said "egoTist"... my bad. (they don't let me delete my posts...)
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Objectivism says if the value of your life would be diminished to the point of despair if the other's life were lost, it is worth the risk or maybe even the loss of your life to allow say, your child to live. The problem is-often these types of decisions would be made at times of great stress, sadness, grief. Although, one can imagine a person's grief at the loss of a loved one they could have possibly saved in some way, and chose not to take the risk, resulting in life long regret for that decision.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Good morning Robbie53024,
    Indeed. Many things one does are actually self motivated and rewarding. Charity for instance may not be altruistic if one receives a sense of satisfaction from the giving. Your own sense of well being, of esteem, is a matter of self interest. I do not believe in altruism. I have never made a "sacrifice" of choice without receiving something in return. Compulsory/ coerced giving/sacrifice is something altogether different.
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by Bobhummel 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would refer you all to the true story of Lieutenant Heather "LUCKY" Penny, a National Guard F-16 pilot on 9/11. Or read the narrative of the citation for the Medal of Honor presented to Navy SEAL LT Micheal Murphy for his actions in Operation Red Wings.
    I guess it is a warrior thing. Some of us have it, many don't. Those of us who ran (in my case flew) to the sound of gunfire would rather save the warrior next to us if we are both going to die if I don't fall on that grenade or I don't made that bomb run into intense anti aircraft fire to protect troops in contact (TIC). The film "Act of Valor" is a representation of true Navy SEAL acts of valor. They are spliced into a single fictional but credible story line. But they all happened some where to a real Navy SEAL. Lone Survivor is the same thing. A little Hollywood, guns blazing and bombs exploding in the last 10 minutes, but the rest was true to brave men who died that day in Afghanistan.
    Cheers
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