Don't Steal THis Article!

Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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If you want to know how Objectivists view Intellectual Property Rights, please see the articles below:

"Don’t Steal This Article!" http://www.philosophyinaction.com/blog/?...

"An Objectivist Recants on IP??"
http://www.philosophyinaction.com/blog/?...

"Ayn Rand on Intellectual Property"
http://hallingblog.com/ayn-rand-on-intel...

"Adam Mossoff Lecture: Ayn Rand on Intellectual Property"
http://hallingblog.com/adam-mossoff-lect...
It is getting tiresome to have to argue the same points over and over-points that other Objectivists have demonstrated philosophically, and in the most recent post in the Gulch, the very premise is quickly shown to be incorrect. It's feeling (whoa oh oh) like a propaganda campaign in here
SOURCE URL: http://www.philosophyinaction.com/blog/?p=1579


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
    Good stuff! The comments following the "Ayn Rand on Intellectual Property" article were demonstrative of the magnitude of the problem we face. The Kantian influence... the mindists are ubiquitous. They do not grasp and accept the natural rights inherent, corollary and essential to existence. They see only subjectivity where objectively applied logic define value, rights and property. Then without fully grasping the fact that one cannot exist without these corollaries and still retain the right to exist and without offering persuasive logical counter argument they falsely claim victory... refutation of your argument! The audacity! They do not know and they do not know they don't know. A is A. Existence exists. You either have a right to exist for your own sake and are entitled to all that is required to continue your existence and all of the products of your effort/existence (creation of your mind or hands), or you are a slave. You and your product would then belong to someone else. The corollary is that if you are entitled to these things, then you must recognize the same for others. What other logical option is there? It is a choice between freedom/self ownership or slavery.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      If you own yourself, then two independent inventors both deserve property rights in the effects of their productive labor. Present law does not recognize that. In fact, previous law did not, either. I maintain that they are not objective. I believe that all independent inventors deserve the right to the products of their intellectual efforts.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
        I produced for my two creators at their discretion until I reached the age of consent and gained my emancipation. :)

        I am satisfied with dbhalling's answer.
        From the comments section in the third link:
        "Parallel Independent Innovation?
        I do not have Ayn Rand’s book with me right now, but she does discuss this issue in her book. Based on memory her point about simultaneous invention is that first true inventor has title to the invention. Thus, your hypothetical about the car breaking down to the patent office has no effect on who obtains the patent. Given this, I think she would not be in favor of a first-to-file system and I agree. As a patent attorney, I can tell you that parallel independent inventions rarely happen. In the US, we have a process for resolving cases where there is almost simultaneous invention and there are very few of these cases a year – 55 last year.
        Photo Finish? As I stated, these cases almost never occur. However, the point of the legal system is to determine who has the property rights. If the parties do not agree to share the property rights then one will be determined to be the owner of the invention. While the result may not always be correct, at some point it is also important that clear title be established so that the property can be put to work."

        Recognizing we do not live in a perfect world, and being a layman, I do not feel qualified to offer a superior option from an experienced, fully informed position. I will defer to his expertise.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
          OA very good points, but I do have one point to add.

          Patent law is based on who is the inventor, not who is the first to get to the patent office. The first-to-file system is unconstitutional. The first person to the patent office is not the inventor, the first person to create the invention - in modern patent law the first person to reduce it to practice.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
            Hello dbhalling,
            Thank you. I enjoyed the articles and always appreciate the knowledge shared. It is also fun to review/see references from Rand's books I haven't read in a while... helps to refresh the memory.
            Regards,
            O.A.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          I never offered a hypothetical about an inventor's car breaking down on the way to the patent office. That was the strawman of Adam Mosshoff who clearly did not understand US Patent Law of the time which until 2011 granted rights to the FIRST TO INVENT, not the first to file. It did not matter back then if you filed after someone else. dhalling was responding to someone and something else entirely, not to me. I appreciate the fact that you choose not to argue beyond your area of interest. No harm; no foul.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
            Understood. I had no idea who posed the question. I simply passed along his reply to what I thought was part of what you were looking for... Likewise... No harm... I wish I knew more. I am interested and always trying to learn.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        Keep pushing your nonsense. 1st it never happens. Two people do not literally invent exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. 2nd there are an infinite number of inventions, if you were not first you are not the inventor move on there are more inventions.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
        there is only one inventor or group of inventors. It's the definition of inventor. It is inefficient to grant a property right for the same invention to more than one inventor.
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  • Posted by Solver 9 years, 9 months ago
    You mean intellectual property rights are not derived from “medieval concepts about land ” but man’s right to the product of his mind? What we are taught in the liberal media is wrong? How surprising, not.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      Solve this: patents are granted by nations. Should we advocate for universal patent laws analogous to the Berne Convention on Copyrights?
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      • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
        yes.
        In the 1850s, about the same time that we did adopt copyrights across countries, we were negotiating treaties to do just that. But negotiations broke down. Note: the 1850s, an anti-patent kick started up in Europe and some countries dropped their patent systems for a decade or two. Note the wealth creation and invention rate of the US at that time.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          I agree 100%. We do need OBJECTIVE intellectual property rights across all nations. We do not have that in the USA because we now follow "first to file" having abandoned "first to invent." I also agree 100% that America's first to invent laws brought inventions here. Of course, we also profited from the violations of patent laws as when SAMUEL SLATER memorized the plans for a textile mill and brought it out of England to the USA. You would punish him, of course.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        Copyrights are granted by nations. Land patents, the homestead act, were granted by the government. The government recognizes the right of creation and provides property rights.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
    I understand how tiresome it must be to argue the same points over and over. I present the same points every year and in some cases twice that often, but then I get paid for it.
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
      I seek objective intellectual property law. The US now with the rest of the world recognizes FIRST TO FILE, NOT FIRST TO INVENT. That is wrong. The old way was better. If intellectual property should not be inheritable (as Ayn Rand claimed), then US law is wrong and should be changed -- and anyone should be allowed to copy _Atlas Shrugged_ as if it were Shakespeare or the Bible. I maintain that intellectual property _is_ and _should be_ heritable. Do you care to discuss that?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
        I was actually trying to make a joke about my being a professor, but as long as you bring up the subject, I agree with you that FIRST TO FILE is incorrect, but that's a battle that any amount of pontificating on our part is not going to change. Regarding the heritability of intellectual property, I think patent law's duration is correct. Regarding something like book or music sales, there should be some limit (50 years or the life of the artist, whichever is longer?)
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          Actually, Thomas Paine had no descendants, so his works would have passed into the public domain on his death. (That does not apply to land. It does not become a public space. Someone can claim it.)

          And what is the objective number? 50 years? 73.2 years? How do you know? That is why I advocate for OBJECTIVE laws for intellectual property. I do not know what they all may be, but I do know what they obviously are not. Unless you have some better argument, I must maintain that intellectual property should be heritable - or else not. But completely and consistently, not this "life of the author plus x years."
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          • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
            It is inheritable. And no property rights last forever. A dead person cannot own land. The heir has to take steps to create and continue the value of the land. In other words they have to undergo the same steps as the original owner.

            There are also practical questions in law. One is who has the best title to property. An heir has more right to real property than anyone else (they may have undertaken many steps to make the property valuable) and has to take steps to continue the value. The same is not true in Intellectual Property. The great great grand child does nothing to continue the value of an incandescent light and could not have contributed anything to the original development.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
            I did not know Paine had no descendants. With the option for a corporation or foundation as a means for inheritance in addition to the life of the author plus x years, I think that covers everything. Just establish the appropriate corporation or foundation.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
        YES! why is it you get THAT and not the other? Transferable and inheritable. They are not infinite in duration. But the idea that property rights in land is infinite in time is incorrect. It is limited by the life of the owner or under inheritance, the rule against perpetuity. that's as much as I understand about their differences
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          My wife's great^n grandfather Lucius Knight, helped to found two villages in northern Michigan, Kingsley and Mayfield, in 1867. In 1867 outside the village limits of Kingsley, he claimed a section of land, one mile on a side, 640 acres. N generations later, Knights still live on parcels that they inherited. When do they lose the right to pass it on?

          When do my heirs OBJECTIVELY lose the right to intellectual property that I create?
          (Riddle me that, Batgirl!)
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
            After a certain period of time, intellectual property becomes "common knowledge". Regarding books, music, and art, the number of such requests would be essentially zero after either 50 years or the person's life, whichever is longer. Yes, Michael Jackson and two of the Beatles still sell CD's, so I am willing to extend the 50 years to 75 or even 100 years. If I were to buy a copy of Common Sense by Thomas Paine now, who would the publisher pay the royalties to? There must be hundreds of his descendants by now.
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            • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
              perpetual patent rights violates the very reason for property rights - creation. With real property the heir has to take steps to continue the value in the property or they lose it.
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        • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
          See my comment to jbrenner. Musicians are paid ROYALTIES according to contractual rights in "intellectual property" in their performances. These are different from copyrights and patents. This is further support for IP laws based on objective, not traditional, considerations.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    The argument that intellectual property rights should not be heritable may not have a solid foundation. We pay rents to the heirs of the original owners of land. Why not on inventions? That this would be an "intolerable burden" is a pragmatic argument, not an objective one.

    It is the nature of ideas that better ones come along. khalling cited the first US patent, Samuel Hopkins's patent for the production of pot ash. If that were passed down to seven generations, would it matter? Ayn Rand claimed that a patent on the wheel would have made the automobile impossible. Perhaps not. Patents are assigned by nations. Penrose patented his tiles in the UK, US, and Japan. He did not patent them in Germany, Brazil, or a hundred other nations. So, it may be that ONE KIND OF WHEEL - one design only - might be patented in Babylon, and it would remain to bee seen if 6000 years later Babylon had no automobiles though Athens, Rome, and America all do.

    Is that objective justice, that you can have intellectual property rights in one country, but not another? These defenders of the status quo merely do not think deeply about the roots of the these concepts.

    The reason that land never seems to go out of ownership is that it is physically real. Inventions are different from land. ideas can be lost and forgotten. They deserve a different kind of law. And they have a different kind of law. I just point out that the present law is not objectively appropriate.

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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
      If the patent rights passed to one heir each time, then I can agree with you, but when such rights get divided up to multiple heirs to the nth generation, would I be expected to pay 512 different people if each generation had 2 kids for ten generations? The intolerable burden is a pragmatic argument. You are correct about that, but pragmatism is important.
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      • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        No property rights last forever. A dead person cannot own property. With land or personal property the person that inherits has to take actions to continue to make it their property, which renews the reason for the property rights. Failure to do so causes them to lose their property rights.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
        This is exactly how PERFORMANCE rights pass. ASCAP and BMI have rules that are apparently too complicated for software - and this is for LIVING artists. When a recording is sold _ALL_ of the performers are entitled their rights, the nameless studio musicians no less than the named vocalist. It works here and now. It is not elegant, but intellectual property rights DIFFERENT FROM copyrights and patents are passed along.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    Thanks for the link to the old article. I copied it into two different directories for future reference. Let me take just one point. PROPERTY RIGHTS SHOULD NOT EXPIRE BUT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS DO. Neither Greg Perkins nor Ayn Rand offered a consistent claim.

    Let us grant that intellectual property should not be heritable. When should it expire? 17 years? Not 18 or 21.4? Why that number and not another?

    If you agree with Ayn Rand, then you should be vigorously fighting the Millennium Digital Commerce Act which granted IP for the life of the creator plus 70 years - or more if passed to a corporation. I do not hear you complaining.

    In fact, even before this
    January 1, 1978
    Effective date of principal provisions of the 1976 copyright law. The term of protection for works created on or after this date consists of the life of the author and 50 years after the author's death. Numerous other provisions modernized the law.

    Under that law, Leonard Peikoff inherited the rights to Ayn Rand's works. She apparently approved when she was alive. Maybe she had other things on her mind...

    Do you find this unjust? Do you not find that unjust?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
      there is no exact answer. In Venice it was 10 years. Eventually we settled on 20 years from the filing date. It takes so long to get them examined, why shouldn't they last longer? It's somewhat arbitrary and therefore political. Copyright law is another question. Better for another post. These are procedural questions, not fundamental. They are important but do not go to the heart of what should/should not be a property right.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago
      IP for the life of the creator plus either 50 or 70 years - or more if passed to a corporation (or a foundation) seems entirely reasonable to me. As for Peikoff's inheritance, that was within the 50 or 70 years. After that, if AR's legacy is to be preserved, Peikoff should establish a foundation specifically for that, if AR didn't already establish that with Peikoff as the executor.
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