"I'm making the argument against someone volunteering."
Last night, I managed to get into one of the most engaging twitter conversations I have ever been involved in. The debate went further than any in recent memory and, while twitter's 140 character limit was a bit of a challenge, we both managed to keep it together. What follows is the text, unedited. Only some of the structure has been edited slightly to make it easier to follow the conversation.
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DanielMWolff: So just to be clear, this kickstarter takes people's capital and gives them exactly 0% of the profits in return?
sdesapio: That's correct Daniel. It is a voluntary value-for-value trade. You are not obligated to contribute. What's so confusing?
DanielMWolff: The second value part, obviously.
sdesapio: If you see no value in the trade, you are in no way obligated to contribute. We're not asking for charity Daniel.
DanielMWolff: Hahaha, your FAQ described it as charity! Now it's a trade?
sdesapio: The FAQ does not describe the campaign as charity. The FAQ only poses the question of "charity" to respond to the assertion.
DanielMWolff: Oh, so you should probably not pitch it as such and just blindly offer the items you think are worth the value-equivalent.
sdesapio: I'm not sure I follow you but, if I'm understanding you, that's what we're doing. That's what Kickstarter is. Value for value.
DanielMWolff: It's quite explicitly not. It's about fronting people the money to realize their ambitions.
sdesapio: You should checkout Kickstarter's own response to that assertion: http://t.co/WuAbsErzUj I'll quote...
sdesapio: "Others have accused creators of asking for a handout by using Kickstarter. This is silly...
sdesapio: ... Every project offers a range of rewards to backers in exchange for their pledges." - Kickstarter
DanielMWolff: That's fine, I'm reading from the site.
DanielMWolff: "Just because an artist funds the creation of their work upfront rather than...later to sell it doesn’t...make it charity."
DanielMWolff: See this is the problem I have with Kickstarter, it draws false parallel to the commission model, which I quite like.
DanielMWolff: A fully democratized populists commission would mean that once the product is finished, it's offered for free, as the artist is...
DanielMWolff: ...already compensated for their parts and labor. Kickstarter just gives the artist the chance to get paid twice.
sdesapio: And this is why it's a great system. No one is obligated to "give." You can say no and choose not to participate.
sdesapio: Kickstarter is truly a "free market."
DanielMWolff: I think you're embodying the principles of capitalism better than you'll ever know.
sdesapio: Perhaps better than you know. Those that care to contribute do so of their own free will. We are forcing no one. Get it?
DanielMWolff: Yeah, no one's confused about the noncompulsory part. That's not the sum total of Ayn Rand's philosophy. Get it?
sdesapio: Actually, it pretty much is. Men should not be hindered from trading of their own volition. Are you suggesting otherwise?
DanielMWolff: No, I believe most people are noticing the hilarious financial failure of your franchise and your continued refusal to adhere...
DanielMWolff: ...to a market that is aggressively rejecting you. What happened to the productive achievement of Objectivism?
sdesapio: Thanks for taking the time to engage Daniel. I really do appreciate it. I'll try and succinctly answer your question...
sdesapio: The films are not about making money, they are about spreading the message. That is the achievement. The making and...
sdesapio: ...distribution of the films is the goal. If the goal were purely financial, we'd have stopped long ago.
DanielMWolff: I'm enjoying it. So it's a labor of love for you? I still wonder why not offer a return to the people fronting capital for you?
DanielMWolff: (assuming this one makes some money back)
sdesapio: It's a labor of love for all of us. We are offering a return, albeit an immediate one. (e.g. contribute $35, receive a tshirt)
DanielMWolff: C'mon, don't self-rationalize. The t-shirt is the incentive, not the transaction itself.
DanielMWolff: That big green button says "Back this project" not "Purchase this signed film cell."
sdesapio: Because that's where the "real" value lies for the contributor. Putting your money behind something you believe in.
DanielMWolff: YES! And if that thing you believe in is a success isn't the thousands of little titans of industry financing it entitled to some?
sdesapio: They already agreed to the exchange being only a contribution reward. That's the deal. And, it's entirely voluntary.
DanielMWolff: This is where I think you discover the truth of capitalism, a few profiteers only by virtue of declaring themselves profiteers.
sdesapio: Only by entering into voluntary arrangements that all parties involved deem profitable.
DanielMWolff: Yes, I understand it's voluntary, you don't need to keep saying it. I'm making the argument against someone volunteering.
sdesapio: This has been the best twitter conversation ever Daniel. Thank you so much. I have to run but please hit me up anytime.
DanielMWolff: Alright, take it easy.
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- - - - -
DanielMWolff: So just to be clear, this kickstarter takes people's capital and gives them exactly 0% of the profits in return?
sdesapio: That's correct Daniel. It is a voluntary value-for-value trade. You are not obligated to contribute. What's so confusing?
DanielMWolff: The second value part, obviously.
sdesapio: If you see no value in the trade, you are in no way obligated to contribute. We're not asking for charity Daniel.
DanielMWolff: Hahaha, your FAQ described it as charity! Now it's a trade?
sdesapio: The FAQ does not describe the campaign as charity. The FAQ only poses the question of "charity" to respond to the assertion.
DanielMWolff: Oh, so you should probably not pitch it as such and just blindly offer the items you think are worth the value-equivalent.
sdesapio: I'm not sure I follow you but, if I'm understanding you, that's what we're doing. That's what Kickstarter is. Value for value.
DanielMWolff: It's quite explicitly not. It's about fronting people the money to realize their ambitions.
sdesapio: You should checkout Kickstarter's own response to that assertion: http://t.co/WuAbsErzUj I'll quote...
sdesapio: "Others have accused creators of asking for a handout by using Kickstarter. This is silly...
sdesapio: ... Every project offers a range of rewards to backers in exchange for their pledges." - Kickstarter
DanielMWolff: That's fine, I'm reading from the site.
DanielMWolff: "Just because an artist funds the creation of their work upfront rather than...later to sell it doesn’t...make it charity."
DanielMWolff: See this is the problem I have with Kickstarter, it draws false parallel to the commission model, which I quite like.
DanielMWolff: A fully democratized populists commission would mean that once the product is finished, it's offered for free, as the artist is...
DanielMWolff: ...already compensated for their parts and labor. Kickstarter just gives the artist the chance to get paid twice.
sdesapio: And this is why it's a great system. No one is obligated to "give." You can say no and choose not to participate.
sdesapio: Kickstarter is truly a "free market."
DanielMWolff: I think you're embodying the principles of capitalism better than you'll ever know.
sdesapio: Perhaps better than you know. Those that care to contribute do so of their own free will. We are forcing no one. Get it?
DanielMWolff: Yeah, no one's confused about the noncompulsory part. That's not the sum total of Ayn Rand's philosophy. Get it?
sdesapio: Actually, it pretty much is. Men should not be hindered from trading of their own volition. Are you suggesting otherwise?
DanielMWolff: No, I believe most people are noticing the hilarious financial failure of your franchise and your continued refusal to adhere...
DanielMWolff: ...to a market that is aggressively rejecting you. What happened to the productive achievement of Objectivism?
sdesapio: Thanks for taking the time to engage Daniel. I really do appreciate it. I'll try and succinctly answer your question...
sdesapio: The films are not about making money, they are about spreading the message. That is the achievement. The making and...
sdesapio: ...distribution of the films is the goal. If the goal were purely financial, we'd have stopped long ago.
DanielMWolff: I'm enjoying it. So it's a labor of love for you? I still wonder why not offer a return to the people fronting capital for you?
DanielMWolff: (assuming this one makes some money back)
sdesapio: It's a labor of love for all of us. We are offering a return, albeit an immediate one. (e.g. contribute $35, receive a tshirt)
DanielMWolff: C'mon, don't self-rationalize. The t-shirt is the incentive, not the transaction itself.
DanielMWolff: That big green button says "Back this project" not "Purchase this signed film cell."
sdesapio: Because that's where the "real" value lies for the contributor. Putting your money behind something you believe in.
DanielMWolff: YES! And if that thing you believe in is a success isn't the thousands of little titans of industry financing it entitled to some?
sdesapio: They already agreed to the exchange being only a contribution reward. That's the deal. And, it's entirely voluntary.
DanielMWolff: This is where I think you discover the truth of capitalism, a few profiteers only by virtue of declaring themselves profiteers.
sdesapio: Only by entering into voluntary arrangements that all parties involved deem profitable.
DanielMWolff: Yes, I understand it's voluntary, you don't need to keep saying it. I'm making the argument against someone volunteering.
sdesapio: This has been the best twitter conversation ever Daniel. Thank you so much. I have to run but please hit me up anytime.
DanielMWolff: Alright, take it easy.
- - - - -
I wanted to make two additional points.
1. The producers of the films put up all of their own capital (ie risk). The kickstarter contributor bears no risk. so, no financial reward.
2. The kickstarter contributors want to to be a part of the History they see is being made. 60 years from now, people will look at these films differently than they do today. Rather than contributing to support a "cause," we are INVESTING in ideas for a profit: The return will be huge
Heh.
I think if he really wants to make the argument against someone volunteering, he might need to make it a little louder. and clearer. and it might need to make sense to someone other than him.
I have a bone to pick, however, with the kickstarter video on the official page.
Phil Valentine says, "The most important message that anybody should get from this movie is that you have to think for yourself."
I've done that all my life and all it's brought me is misery and scorn, from everyone not-me. Everyone. Galt might enjoy standing apart, feeling superior. Standing apart gets old after half a century or so.
(and I know the scornful reply; "...if everyone scorns you, maybe it's just you..." in which case I should let others think for me?)
Other people scorning you for thinking for yourself is their issue, not yours. The more important question for you is, do you care if they scorn you? If so, why?
Read"
Well you get used to it, in fact If I feel I'm "going with the flow" I try to swim away for my own sake.
""...if everyone scorns you, maybe it's just you...""
Have to disagree, most people do not like to think, I guess it takes to much effort, challenging people to look deeper, I've had people eventually come back to me and say thank you, may take years at times but most usually do.
And yes, however you get people to think about life and the different ways to live it, it does take a long time and a lot of one-on-one time.
Some of the reward, over that sometimes-glacial time, has to be in the process - the "brain gym" effect.
Scary stuff!
:-|
I believe 'Daniel' wanted to prove his point and refused to accede to most of what you mentioned. Either that or he simply does not understand fair trade?! Here's hoping you made an impression!
What Daniel doesn't realize, is that by "banning" people from volunteering is that he is on the otherside, endorsing a minimum wage. Whether it be 1 cent, or what ever. If I can't volunteer, and must be paid, then there truely is a universal minimum wage for my time. And if that were true, then then the government can come in and tax every single thing I do. Because I have to get paid for it.
... And it was over priced for the performance, so for those who will say I paid to get in, I would have rathered had the T-shirt.
:-)
If/when I contribute, I know I'm giving my money.